Flagship Name

  • Spirit of Fire

    Votes: 21 47.7%
  • Vigilance

    Votes: 23 52.3%

  • Total voters
    44
  • Poll closed .
It also feels counterproductive, we just received the Sigilite's reply about how we should have talked and then we go behind his back to meet people heightening the conflict before talking to him, how does that even work?
It's not behind his back when it's almost literally right next door. Malcador would like nothing more than us not communicating with people who might support our actions because it makes it much easier to compartmentalize and pick the situation apart.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
[X] The Imperial Few - A trusted few Primarchs are brought to a discussion with the Emperor
 
Current tally.

Adhoc vote count started by Enjou on Sep 3, 2022 at 1:04 PM, finished with 47 posts and 29 votes.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward

Well, considering that we are so far away in Malcador's circle of trust, we may need more oomph to our argument.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
[X] The Imperial Few - A trusted few Primarchs are brought to a discussion with the Emperor
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
[X] The Imperial Few - A trusted few Primarchs are brought to a discussion with the Emperor
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
[X] The Imperial Few - A trusted few Primarchs are brought to a discussion with the Emperor
 
He definitely can't bury a dozen Primarchs like he tried to do to Vulkan, with too much to bear until they just collapse and give up and give in and stop trying to do anything Malc and Emps don't want them to.

Just wanted to expand on this bit a little - trying to get a Primarch to give up and give in is a fool's errand. The Emperor didn't build them to give up and give in, because they wouldn't be able to conquer the galaxy otherwise. If a Primarch feels strongly enough about something, then he's going to act on it. You can get in his way, you can hinder his actions, but he's not going to stop unless you can actually manage to change his mind on the issue in question, and if you get in his way enough then you become an obstacle to be overcome... or removed, if that's what it takes.

Malcador says Kesar doesn't understand the mindset of the common guardsman, and he may well be right about that. But he may well not really understand the Primarchs either, or at least as much as he thinks he does.
 
[X] The Sigillite - Join Malcador for a meal, you have been invited.
[X] The Imperial Few - A trusted few Primarchs are brought to a discussion with the Emperor

Personally speaking I would have preferred it if this vote was more Mal+Primarchs rather than Mal+Primarchs+Kelbor, but its the best I see as an option here so I am voting for it.

[] Terra to Mars. Meet with Mal and the Primarchs on Terra, and then on the way out stop by Mars for a short meeting with Kelbor-Hal
 
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But he may well not really understand the Primarchs either, or at least as much as he thinks he does.
That was blisteringly obvious by his being blindsided by Kesar's YOLOing.

Malcador doesn't understand that what he was doing to Vulkan would have at best made him go insane, not make him see how pointless trying to do better for humanity is.

And trying to tell Kesar, basically, 'you don't know anything, stop doing things, while I scramble to fix things and make sure you can't fuck things up again'?

That's not just missing the plot. That's having it fly over your head, then sling shot around the gravity well your own enormous ego projects to bean you in the back of the skull, pointy end first.

There's virtually zero chance of Kesar not taking some sort of precipitous action unless sufficiently CONVINCED not to. And Malcador doesn't seem to actually understand how close to the edge Kesar is standing, nor indeed how close to the edge other Primarchs are also standing.

We don't need a band-aid now and a solution literally only the Emperor and Malcador are content with fifteen years from now.

We need accountability and compromise NOW.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward

Plus, the war of blood and thunder does mean there's a good chance that the orks will win, be Beast level in 100 years and come tearing into the IoM...we cant afford to slow down cause we'll need as much territory as possible to lose to them without getting hit in the key areas...THAT INCLUDES SLOWING DOWN VULKAN AND KONRAD BY DUMPING THEM ON THE MAELSTROM.

Malcador, when all is said and done, is focused on trying to maintain control above all else and that is affecting his POV and priorities...Kesar said it himself when he met the Emperor that his priority is the safety of mankind...and that includes Malcador and the Emperor.

Better Kesar take the hits and get punished rather than civil war be waged or people die
 
The b and t incursion is going to need more than numbers, we need coverage, concentration, competency, and commitment. We can't do that if large swathes of the imperium are on fire, can't support large fleet movements, or are too broken down to give things their all. We can't fix the imperium's issues before it happens, but if we don't start addressing them then it will shatter even if Terra and the core sectors survive the actual fight.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
-[X]: For the Mars meeting: Kesar takes the reins of the meeting and ensures that, for the Primarchs, the priority is not creating a Civil war, or lashing out at the Emperor...but His restoration and ensuring that he is indeed making the best decisions for humanity both in the short term and long term. Kesar also points out that out of all of them, he and Horus are the ones with the connections, the relationships, and the reputation to ensure that they are not only taken seriously, but that other primarchs will see this as more than just the disgruntlement of a fringe few which Lion might well try to dismiss Magnus, Mortarion, and Perturabo as for example. Furthermore, he also points out that if they keep trusting him, that if Kesar is allowed to dictate the pace and focus...they have a chance to get *Malcador the Sigilite* on side, if only because Malcador will prioritize maintaining some semblance of control or awareness over immediate renouncement. Point out that because of the War of Blood and Thunder (with Horus and Magnus for witnesses), the Imperium of Man (and mechanicus) CANNOT afford a civil war because all it will do is weaken humanity for whichever side wins...Kesar pulls his own teeth and admits that the Orks technically in that case qualify as the greater threat...To Kelbor Han, Kesar more or less makes a deal: If Kelbor will avoid pushing too hard for Mechanicus independence at the expense of the Imperium of Man as well as less...dangerous deals like he offered Vulkan, Kesar will ensure that the STCs and such reach Mars first even as Kesar shares them with all Forgeworlds as is his habit, so that Mars might benefit most. Kesar will also remind Kelbor that by helping them, and limiting the trouble being caused..Kelbor can eventually use this as a claim to the prestige that he helped 'reform' the Imperium for much political clout.
-[X]: For the Meeting with Malcador, the priority there is that we in essence confront him with the fact that even if we hadn't almost into'd civil war...there are SEVERAL brewing...if his desire is truly, *truly* to maintain control and ensure that The Plan remains in effect and moving forward...it is beyond too late and was always too late the moment Chaos had stolen the Primarchs...but that does not mean that The Plan cannot still happen in some way...and Kesar is ironically Malcador's best chance of that. Kesar points out that through his efforts, actions, and standing in the Primarchs...Kesar is perhaps the only one that can go to meetings like the one on Mars and bring back assurances that they will not push to the point of civil war...because that would not be in Humanity's best interest. Control Malcador that, because he is so assured of his assumptions, a meeting before the walkout would not have had the same impact because Malcador had to come face to face with that fact that he has conflated 'obedience' with 'loyalty and trust'...Malcador might not trust Kesar anymore as he once did...but that is as much because Malcador had made assumptions *of* Kesar and had rested on them, a mindset and pattern that is very, VERY, VERY dangerous for someone in his position...because other assumptions of that bent would have seen the Imperium engulfed in the much feared civil war. His plans to 'bring Vulkan and Konrad to heel' would have driven them to rebellion and war rather than wear them down with 'reality'...Their assumption of control and use in Angron nearly lead to him slowly but surely becoming a pawn of the Bloody Archdaemon...The assumption that Lorgar was compliant and accepting of his role nearly lead to him undoing all their plans as a Chaos mole... It took Kesar checking Malcador's assumptions about the Twins to get them working together and how much that has made a difference cannot be understated. Kesar does not doubt that the decision for Vulkan was calculated beyond thoroughly and carefully...but the variables that went into that, the priorities...those are where things might have gone wrong. Because the Emperor is *broken*, his priorities are broken, his methods are as harmful to his stated goals as they are helping. Malcador worries about the Imperial Army seeing the Emperor and Primarchs fracture? How much worse would a civil war be for that? For three sides, one loyal, one rebellious, and one neutral (for three would form as Kesar can lay out) to be borne, how would the Imperial Army be then? How many lives would be lost because the Daemons or orks returned at a time when Humanity was turning in on itself. Kesar tries to drive home that he sees the true logic of having to push and push hard if only so that humanity can survive what is coming...which is why he went into the Maelstrom once more...because if there is anyone that can maintain the speed the Imperium needs to regain the resources in that region, if there is any legion that can face the threats there in the time that it will take to maintain momentum...it is Kesar and the Eternal Wardens. End with asking him: "What would a walkout have accomplished that talking to you could not? Goading him into doing to me what he did to you...so that my brothers and yourself could see that he NEEDS to be whole." Kesar then tells Malcador that he is willing to go along with working with Kesar, or at least letting the 'Chastisement' go forward, Kesar will do his best to ensure that any troubles that he can help with do not reach the point of Civil War. Kesar uses his position as the 'common ground' of all the primarchs to ensure that while they do work for their goals, they also ensure that the Great Crusade moves forward, such as Vulkan's wager being turned from pure win to Kelbor to something more moderate. Malcador will have a direct line to the problem primarchs and being able to if not surpress the issues, then address them far more effectively than before...But it will require Malcador to truly, truly examine his assumptions, priorities, and point of view and decide whether he can, if not *trust* Kesar as he used to...trust Kesar to act in humanity's best interest the best Interest of Malcador, the Emperor, and the primarchs too. Kesar's actions will not change regardless of if Malcador accepts this offer...but if he rejects it, then he loses the best chance to maintain connections that will regain him control for the sake of stubbornness and spite...and isn't a similar mindset why the Emperor lashed out and harmed Malcador in the first place?


========================================================================

So...this might be a bit much, so let me TL:DR for ya.

For the primarchs, what im pushing for here is Kesar taking the steering of the primarch meeting and ensuring the priorty isn't civil war or 'down with the Emperor' but the repairing of the Emperor and getting Malcador if not on side, then at least not actively sabotaging like he did Vulkan and Konrad.

This would not only ensure that kesar's main focus remains so rather than things falling apart to little c chaos, but it also gives him more oomph with the meeting with Malcador as well as giving him more credence that he is doing this because he feels it needs to be done and will not put others at risk for the sake of it.

It would also ensure that Mortarion and others know that things are being lead by someone they can rely on as well as giving someone a common leader/figurehead that they trust cause he is ironically the common bond.

For Malcador...out of anyone in 40k...he's both the most human at the top and the most inhuman. Not to put a fine point on it but the dude is trying to make Big E's original plan work and wearing himself to the bone doing it...while having his own Maelstrom sized blinkers on. Kesar here needs to get it through to Malcador that even if his plans worked...they'd have made things worse, even if Kesar goes beyond his own biases he can see that...the fact that kesar was able to surprise Malcador at all shows how much the Sigilite has been resting on his assumptions and letting them do the driving...which is disasterous for the spymaster and political shadowmaster of the Imperium.

Kesar will also be leveraging his connection with the other primarchs to not only keep Malcador if not working with them, then at least letting their plan go through because he is perhaps the only primarch that can make himself the Emperor's lightning rod of hate and NOT have it result in civil war...but also using it to leverage Malcador and Big E out of the quicksand that the theft of the Primarchs pushed them into, because make no mistake, the moment the Primarchs were stolen and had to be retrieved, the original plan of the pair was thrown out the window an they *couldn't stop* because if they did, they'd lose the momentum and never regain it...getting Malcador to see that in essence that he and Big E have been acting within the bounds of the Archdaemons' will in this as well as the assumptions that lead to situations like Lorgar and Angron is key here...because Malcador CANNOT afford to let assumptions drive him.

Next key is getting Malcador to see that prioritizing control over the primarchs over all else is only going to lead to civil war and nearly has in several ways. Malcador needs to stop trying to hold the Pieces of The Plan together and work *with* the Primarchs to adapt The Plan to the new situation...and Big E needs his soul, his emotions back before he becomes as inhuman as the Archdaemons, before The Plan itself tears the Imperium apart.

Kesar is in essence trying to show that the best strategy for the Archdaemons to take down the Imperium...is to do nothing...but use the tools that the imperium gives them...

It also sets up Kesar as the safety valve of the Primarchs and requires Malcador to keep him close, because Kesar is the one dude that ALL the Primarchs (barring Lion to an extent) will listen to *period*...and that is a very valuable and dangerous position...and in order to control that, and to get an ear to either get the grievances, or issues...Malcador is going to need to keep Kesar close so that he knows what's going on...

Final point is basically setting Malcador up for still working with Kesar so that a new bond of trust can be forged...but a true bond of trust, not one of assumed obedience and tying Malcador to the idea that...if this had happened sooner...perhaps the schism between himself and Big E might not have happened.
 
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While I will add that write-in to my vote, I suspect that the way we'll actually handle the various meetings will be in the next update, so if daemon strikes this down I wanna keep it in mind for next time.
 
[X] The Sol System. First meet with the Primarchs that Mortarion has gathered on Mars to discuss matters with them and Kelbor-Hal, then meet with Malcador on Terra afterward
-[X]: For the Mars meeting: Kesar takes the reins of the meeting and ensures that, for the Primarchs, the priority is not creating a Civil war, or lashing out at the Emperor...but His restoration and ensuring that he is indeed making the best decisions for humanity both in the short term and long term. Kesar also points out that out of all of them, he and Horus are the ones with the connections, the relationships, and the reputation to ensure that they are not only taken seriously, but that other primarchs will see this as more than just the disgruntlement of a fringe few which Lion might well try to dismiss Magnus, Mortarion, and Perturabo as for example. Furthermore, he also points out that if they keep trusting him, that if Kesar is allowed to dictate the pace and focus...they have a chance to get *Malcador the Sigilite* on side, if only because Malcador will prioritize maintaining some semblance of control or awareness over immediate renouncement. Point out that because of the War of Blood and Thunder (with Horus and Magnus for witnesses), the Imperium of Man (and mechanicus) CANNOT afford a civil war because all it will do is weaken humanity for whichever side wins...Kesar pulls his own teeth and admits that the Orks technically in that case qualify as the greater threat...To Kelbor Han, Kesar more or less makes a deal: If Kelbor will avoid pushing too hard for Mechanicus independence at the expense of the Imperium of Man as well as less...dangerous deals like he offered Vulkan, Kesar will ensure that the STCs and such reach Mars first even as Kesar shares them with all Forgeworlds as is his habit, so that Mars might benefit most. Kesar will also remind Kelbor that by helping them, and limiting the trouble being caused..Kelbor can eventually use this as a claim to the prestige that he helped 'reform' the Imperium for much political clout.
-[X]: For the Meeting with Malcador, the priority there is that we in essence confront him with the fact that even if we hadn't almost into'd civil war...there are SEVERAL brewing...if his desire is truly, *truly* to maintain control and ensure that The Plan remains in effect and moving forward...it is beyond too late and was always too late the moment Chaos had stolen the Primarchs...but that does not mean that The Plan cannot still happen in some way...and Kesar is ironically Malcador's best chance of that. Kesar points out that through his efforts, actions, and standing in the Primarchs...Kesar is perhaps the only one that can go to meetings like the one on Mars and bring back assurances that they will not push to the point of civil war...because that would not be in Humanity's best interest. Control Malcador that, because he is so assured of his assumptions, a meeting before the walkout would not have had the same impact because Malcador had to come face to face with that fact that he has conflated 'obedience' with 'loyalty and trust'...Malcador might not trust Kesar anymore as he once did...but that is as much because Malcador had made assumptions *of* Kesar and had rested on them, a mindset and pattern that is very, VERY, VERY dangerous for someone in his position...because other assumptions of that bent would have seen the Imperium engulfed in the much feared civil war. His plans to 'bring Vulkan and Konrad to heel' would have driven them to rebellion and war rather than wear them down with 'reality'...Their assumption of control and use in Angron nearly lead to him slowly but surely becoming a pawn of the Bloody Archdaemon...The assumption that Lorgar was compliant and accepting of his role nearly lead to him undoing all their plans as a Chaos mole... It took Kesar checking Malcador's assumptions about the Twins to get them working together and how much that has made a difference cannot be understated. Kesar does not doubt that the decision for Vulkan was calculated beyond thoroughly and carefully...but the variables that went into that, the priorities...those are where things might have gone wrong. Because the Emperor is *broken*, his priorities are broken, his methods are as harmful to his stated goals as they are helping. Malcador worries about the Imperial Army seeing the Emperor and Primarchs fracture? How much worse would a civil war be for that? For three sides, one loyal, one rebellious, and one neutral (for three would form as Kesar can lay out) to be borne, how would the Imperial Army be then? How many lives would be lost because the Daemons or orks returned at a time when Humanity was turning in on itself. Kesar tries to drive home that he sees the true logic of having to push and push hard if only so that humanity can survive what is coming...which is why he went into the Maelstrom once more...because if there is anyone that can maintain the speed the Imperium needs to regain the resources in that region, if there is any legion that can face the threats there in the time that it will take to maintain momentum...it is Kesar and the Eternal Wardens. End with asking him: "What would a walkout have accomplished that talking to you could not? Goading him into doing to me what he did to you...so that my brothers and yourself could see that he NEEDS to be whole." Kesar then tells Malcador that he is willing to go along with working with Kesar, or at least letting the 'Chastisement' go forward, Kesar will do his best to ensure that any troubles that he can help with do not reach the point of Civil War. Kesar uses his position as the 'common ground' of all the primarchs to ensure that while they do work for their goals, they also ensure that the Great Crusade moves forward, such as Vulkan's wager being turned from pure win to Kelbor to something more moderate. Malcador will have a direct line to the problem primarchs and being able to if not surpress the issues, then address them far more effectively than before...But it will require Malcador to truly, truly examine his assumptions, priorities, and point of view and decide whether he can, if not *trust* Kesar as he used to...trust Kesar to act in humanity's best interest the best Interest of Malcador, the Emperor, and the primarchs too. Kesar's actions will not change regardless of if Malcador accepts this offer...but if he rejects it, then he loses the best chance to maintain connections that will regain him control for the sake of stubbornness and spite...and isn't a similar mindset why the Emperor lashed out and harmed Malcador in the first place?

========================================================================

So...this might be a bit much, so let me TL:DR for ya.

For the primarchs, what im pushing for here is Kesar taking the steering of the primarch meeting and ensuring the priorty isn't civil war or 'down with the Emperor' but the repairing of the Emperor and getting Malcador if not on side, then at least not actively sabotaging like he did Vulkan and Konrad.

This would not only ensure that kesar's main focus remains so rather than things falling apart to little c chaos, but it also gives him more oomph with the meeting with Malcador as well as giving him more credence that he is doing this because he feels it needs to be done and will not put others at risk for the sake of it.

It would also ensure that Mortarion and others know that things are being lead by someone they can rely on as well as giving someone a common leader/figurehead that they trust cause he is ironically the common bond.

For Malcador...out of anyone in 40k...he's both the most human at the top and the most inhuman. Not to put a fine point on it but the dude is trying to make Big E's original plan work and wearing himself to the bone doing it...while having his own Maelstrom sized blinkers on. Kesar here needs to get it through to Malcador that even if his plans worked...they'd have made things worse, even if Kesar goes beyond his own biases he can see that...the fact that kesar was able to surprise Malcador at all shows how much the Sigilite has been resting on his assumptions and letting them do the driving...which is disasterous for the spymaster and political shadowmaster of the Imperium.

Kesar will also be leveraging his connection with the other primarchs to not only keep Malcador if not working with them, then at least letting their plan go through because he is perhaps the only primarch that can make himself the Emperor's lightning rod of hate and NOT have it result in civil war...but also using it to leverage Malcador and Big E out of the quicksand that the theft of the Primarchs pushed them into, because make no mistake, the moment the Primarchs were stolen and had to be retrieved, the original plan of the pair was thrown out the window an they *couldn't stop* because if they did, they'd lose the momentum and never regain it...getting Malcador to see that in essence that he and Big E have been acting within the bounds of the Archdaemons' will in this as well as the assumptions that lead to situations like Lorgar and Angron is key here...because Malcador CANNOT afford to let assumptions drive him.

Next key is getting Malcador to see that prioritizing control over the primarchs over all else is only going to lead to civil war and nearly has in several ways. Malcador needs to stop trying to hold the Pieces of The Plan together and work *with* the Primarchs to adapt The Plan to the new situation...and Big E needs his soul, his emotions back before he becomes as inhuman as the Archdaemons, before The Plan itself tears the Imperium apart.

Kesar is in essence trying to show that the best strategy for the Archdaemons to take down the Imperium...is to do nothing...but use the tools that the imperium gives them...

It also sets up Kesar as the safety valve of the Primarchs and requires Malcador to keep him close, because Kesar is the one dude that ALL the Primarchs (barring Lion to an extent) will listen to *period*...and that is a very valuable and dangerous position...and in order to control that, and to get an ear to either get the grievances, or issues...Malcador is going to need to keep Kesar close so that he knows what's going on...

Final point is basically setting Malcador up for still working with Kesar so that a new bond of trust can be forged...but a true bond of trust, not one of assumed obedience and tying Malcador to the idea that...if this had happened sooner...perhaps the schism between himself and Big E might not have happened.

You're not going to have the level of control over the talk needed for this write in to really work. It'll be split into a few updates regardless as it is a very big deal. So sadly this write in is a bit too much.
 
If we're meeting the Primarchs first, then any write-in on the meeting with Malcador is premature, because the first meeting will almost certainly affect the second.
 
If we're meeting the Primarchs first, then any write-in on the meeting with Malcador is premature, because the first meeting will almost certainly affect the second.

Exactly this, there are enough strong personalities involved that the Primarch meeting is going to be lengthy on its own and have a wide variety of possible outcomes.
 
You know, with all the different insights given by the thread, my hope to avoid a civil war is slowly dying. If it doesn't happen, then that is great! But if it does...

Well, Tzeencth will surely love it, especially if he and the others can grab some Legions and Primarchs. And recover some power.
 
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