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The Lost Primarch Quest
- Thread starter Daemon Hunter
- Start date
I get what you are saying, but Kesar hasn't actually been trying to give the Vigilance a soul. If we do it via the tech tree then I can see it counting towards Omnissiah candidacy, but if it happens as an accident? That's something else entirely.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
Even as an accident it's unprecedented and will give the Mechanicus seizures. And from that point on I think it can be done again with a bit of research.
sure, and doing it again will be the point where they start viewing him as a candidate, though... what effect that will have on prior worship of the Emperor as Omnissiah is... questionable. Best to come up with a plan before that.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
Has the Emperor shown the Mechanicus the ability to create Souls?
- Location
- yorkshire
at this point I really want to give the Vigilance a soul she at her current state is really protective of the legion and her crew
Nope. He got viewed as such by healing some complicated machines with a touch. Emps has not really shown anything beyond that and his insane knowledge of tech as proof of omnissiahood. Which is largely why Kelbor-Hal and the rest of the doubters think he isn't actually the Omnissiah.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
It probably won't be canon but QM may use some of it for when the time comes. One thing is for sure, though: Vigilance is best mom.
So even creating a Soul by mistake gives Kesar at least equal odds of being Omnissiah. Also, if Kelbor-Hal learns of it he will almost certainly support it and likely believe it.
Alright, while I can empathize with wanting to save as many uncorrupted people as we can, it's a really bad idea to try to prioritize the lives of the prisoners. Not only will it kill our sons, it will tell Chaos that using prisoners as human shields is an effective tactic against the Eternal Wardens. Which means they'll keep doing it. There are times when one has to harden one's heart and the correct decision will leave a bad taste in your mouth.
Further, we should really have both Kesar and the Titans assaulting the research facility. That's where the most dangerous experimental daemon engines will be, and so that's where we have the highest risk of casualties in general - Kesar needs to be there to deal with the worst abominations. As long as they aren't hobbled, our sons can more than adequately deal with the prison - it's going to be a curbstomp, given it's not a military facility and we'll be using overwhelming force there.
Further, we should really have both Kesar and the Titans assaulting the research facility. That's where the most dangerous experimental daemon engines will be, and so that's where we have the highest risk of casualties in general - Kesar needs to be there to deal with the worst abominations. As long as they aren't hobbled, our sons can more than adequately deal with the prison - it's going to be a curbstomp, given it's not a military facility and we'll be using overwhelming force there.
williams1996
Alba gu bràth
- Location
- Scotland
[X] Send both to the research complex
[X] Assault normally
[X] Assault normally
- Location
- yorkshire
she better be best mom
There isn't any reason for them to ever NOT use human shields when they are available. Whether its particularly effective as a tactic or not. Beyond that, at what point do we consider saving the lives of civilians more important than losing some of our sons? If that answer is never, then why bother doing ground attacks at all? Just destroy everything from Orbit every time, minimize our losses. If that answer has a specific number involved, then how can we properly apply it when we don't know how many losses we'll take? Beyond that, with Kesar there at the holding area, we've got a much better chance of saving people while minimizing losses.
Though @Daemon Hunter since when were there 5 different areas? I thought the research facility WAS the place with all the sensors that we broke into. There were only 4 important locations weren't there? There were definitely only 4 locations we had rolls to look into. Only 4 areas were described in the initial world briefing, and we took out 3. Why is there 2 more now?
1. Using human shields means you have to put those people there to use as shields in the first place. That has some risks, as those people could try to turn on you when you're trying to use them, which while not necessarily dangerous given their unarmed stated could be a distraction. It also adds another logistics task. Further, if the other side isn't flinching, it can be more of a morale problem for your own troops as the "protection" they think they have fails.
2. When it's worthwhile to risk saving civilians is a complicated question with no entirely solid answer, because it's based on the situation. In this situation, there's enough people to save and little enough danger that I would judge it worth sending in our sons for a ground assault rather than just destroying the prison with artillery, but not enough to put their lives over the lives of the prisoners. If the danger was sufficiently heightened a few thousand salvageable civilians wouldn't be worthwhile and we'd just attack from range. If there were a lot more people who we wouldn't have to put down anyways, that would also be worth more risk to save them.
The sensors area was always separate. The research and holding facilities seemed to be considered one site in the initial write up on this planet. I'm guessing they're close enough together for that to be justified when we were initially assaulting the planet and had a variety of targets. Now they can probably be divided into two sections of one site - the area where the prisoners are held captive, and the area where they're taken to be experimented on. So one larger facility that is divided into two main sections, and each group is assaulting a different sub-facility. This is WH40k, so a single big facility could be the size of a town or small city.
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1. This is Chaos we are talking about. Its also just a lone world, not part of a larger polity. I just don't see this information spreading out to be used by other chaos polities, and even it was I just don't think we'll face it in large enough amounts to make not saving people worthwhile.
2. With Kesar there, I fully expect casualties to be pretty minimal. Also, it sets a bad precedent for us to be considering saving civilian lives as a low priority. I just don't like it.
3. The sensors were only separate when your plan started calling them separate. Before that, they were part of the research facility. The first time we got data on Abom VI we rolled for information on the 4 important sites. That list, from the update was "the manufacturing centers for daemon engines, the lands where the daemon engines gathered, the location where nightmarish research took place, and the holding pens for test subjects." The third location we got information on had this to say "For the third location, the Pathfinders had a very difficult time infiltrating. It seems that the location was covered by a massive sensor grid with only a few vulnerabilities. Thankfully, these were found, but the Pathfinders estimate that they will only be able to smuggle in 1000 Astartes. However, they have noted that there are not many defenses present, although they are extremely worried that some of the more experimental subjects may be released by the insane hereteks. So far, the Pathfinders have been unable to determine how dangerous the creatures are since they have avoided entering the complex because they do not know the sensor capabilities of these daemonic constructs." That clearly shows that the research area had the massive sensor grid, and that while there weren't many defenses at that area, they had dangerous experimental subjects. There was never a separate sensor grid area. It was always the research area. Then your plan just... kinda assumed the sensor grid was a completely different location instead of the same one, and it got picked. I'm really not sure how the hell that happened, or why it was counted separately.
Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
Moving from beyond the planning of the attack, allow me to turn the dial back to creating souls for machines/ensouling machines. Whether done on accident or purpose, we merely need talk to Kelbor-Hal and explain what occurred and essentially tell him, we recognize this can cause a potential civil war in the Mechanicus hence we need to keep this under wraps/both put a spin on things saying this was/is an ability from the Emperor (Omnisiah) so we can avoid said civil war. Also explain to Kelbor that if he tries to oppose the Emperor using this, well... there's a reason the Emperor is an Emperor and the strongest Pysker known to humanity... so yeah, bad idea. Let's not do that. Something around there. This is just to give us a rather rough draft of possibilities we can take if/when we accidentally/purposely create a soul for a machine or ensoul a machine.
Should probably also actually talk to the Emperor about it. Possibly before talking to Kelbor-Hal. Its possible he'd be willing to just let us have that designation. Especially if it further cemented Mars behind the Imperium of Man. So long as we continue to be pure of taint, and continue to work towards bettering Mankind he might be ok with it. Especially since Malcador likes us. Few people have the pull Malc does with the Emperor.
Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
Fair. See, this is why I posted this. Now we have a somewhat sane plan beyond people just being worried about it.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
Would he trust us with that though? With Kelbor-Hal as Kesar's friend and open recognition as Omnissiah we basically control the Mechanicus, granting us more power than any other Primarch, possibly even surpassing the authority of a Warmaster.
Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
We wouldn't be aiming for Omnissiah, but rather convincing them that the ability to do so is because we are the son of the Omnissiah. Think God and Demigod, or God and Jesus. Whichever one you prefer, though it's closer to Mythology God and Demigods rather then the Christian Mythos.
That would be my idea. Because Emperor highly unlikely to give Omnissiah to us, even with Malcador backing us.
Well, I don't think Warmaster has been named yet, has it? Also, we've been pretty big about sharing our tech, and on researching tech and understanding it. While we'd have a crap-ton of control over the Mechanicus, we've been particularly loyal to the Emperor, and specifically anti-Chaos, which seems like one of the Emps biggest interests. So I mean, I don't know whether it would work or not. But talking to him about it before going to the Mechanicus seems like a good plan. Of course... this stuff is probably a few decades from happening, especially if we don't start going for that tech now.
Nicholas Brooks
Redeemer and Destroyer
- Location
- United States
It's still gonna cause lots of problems because we did something only the Omnissiah could do (namely create a Soul) and the Emperor has not.
The Chaos Gods are watching. Their daemons on this battlefield will not likely suffer true deaths. Chaos has means of spreading information that other factions don't, even between sub-factions with no noteworthy connection to one another.
A competent military commander sometimes has to make decisions they don't like if they want to be effective. The cost of making a single Astartes is staggering, and losing several of them to maybe save an additional fraction of a few thousand people is horrendously inefficient. Those Astartes lives would be better spent saving much larger groups of people.
Dude, you asked about this and it was clarified during the planning phase for the last action:
Remember that the prison/research complex holds 500,000 people captive. It's got to be huge to hold that many people and the staff needed to man it, and it's highly likely there's a degree of separation between where they keep prisoners and the actual research portion of the facility, which would easily explain why we have two areas to strike. This is 40k, stuff scales up to be big.
Altered
Duality | Redeemed
- Location
- Terra
We talk to Emperor about it, show him how we did it... if we did it on purpose. He likes this, has the knowledge of how to do it. Worse case we can't show him, due to it being an accident. We talk to him still, he agrees to pretend like he has the ability but won't use it because he wants the Mechanicus to quest for knowledge to the point of doing so or some bullshit like that.
Nenshou Yuuki
I will fail you in every way
- Location
- London
[X] Send the Titans to the research complex and himself to the prison
[X] Prioritize the prisoners' lives
[X] Prioritize the prisoners' lives