The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Elder Haman]

No the defence numbers are ground defences. Muspelheim has level 6 ground defences

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Ohh... most of them had the "defence level" in the same row as the Orbital Defenses, so I assumed they referred to orbital defenses. I will move them all into the Army row in my post above.

EDIT: Fixed.

@durin Please update the Local Systems using the post I made because I added the column heading for all the planets which makes it much easier to read.

 

[Elder Haman]

@Enjou Considering that durin has confrimed the tithe will be calculated on the Net, that means my plan is still 4 million + positive annually for metal production, before we drop any material production, (which perhaps we should).

Does that make you reconsider your trade plan with Midgard?

 

[Enjou]

and it is net income

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Before trade, I'm assuming.

Though that seems to contradict what we voted to tax (gross production):

[] The remainder of the central government expenses to be paid through a tithe system, tithe to be equal across all systems proportionate to their production. (eg Everyone pays 10% of their gross production - thus Nilfheim will pay primarily in promethium, etc.)

I guess the easiest way to clarify the question would be "are you going to tithe the same method you did with the Imperium?"

 

[Enjou]

Does that make you reconsider your trade plan with Midgard?

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I'm wanting to be sure of durin's answer, first.

If it does I'll add back in the 15 million metal I was planning on trading them.

 

[Durin]

Before trade, I'm assuming.

Though that seems to contradict what we voted to tax (gross production):

[] The remainder of the central government expenses to be paid through a tithe system, tithe to be equal across all systems proportionate to their production. (eg Everyone pays 10% of their gross production - thus Nilfheim will pay primarily in promethium, etc.)

I guess the easiest way to clarify the question would be "are you going to tithe the same method you did with the Imperium?"

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Yes I am. Everyone is familiar with it

 

[Enjou]

Yes I am. Everyone is familiar with it

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Ok, that's different than net production then, I do believe, given what the tax was before. Either that or the tax rate in the Imperium was significantly higher.

EDIT - Nevermind, it is net I think. I was just confused due to how metal is handled since part of it gets converted. Carry on.

 

[Dark Ness]

[X] Elder Haman

 

[Elder Haman]

100 Cr (2.7 Cargo) - 5,000,000 Metal per year

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That costs 180 Credits not 100 Credits

199 Credits Banked with Asgard

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Which makes this 119 Credits banked.

ALFHEIM (1 Merchantman, 1 Navigator - 5 Cargo Available)
Sell
2 Cr - Training (15 regiments assigned to Alfheim for next decade)
4 Cr - 750,000 Thrones per year

Buy
8 Cr (4.12 Cargo)

Cost/Gain
2.06 Cargo
-750,000 Thrones, +5 Food per year

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First of all, you are only selling 6 Credits worth and are buying 8 credits worth.

Second, durin confirmed that giving them the Training would improve their relationship status with us, so I think it's a no brainer to do so. As +1 relationship is surely worth 750,000 Thrones a year.

VANAHEIM (2 Merchantmen, 2 Navigators - 12 Cargo Available)
Sell
560 Cr (8.4 Cargo) = 14,000,000 Promethium

Buy
270 Cr (1.2 Cargo) - complete Heavy orbital defenses (40 Million Thrones, 15 Million Material, 9 Million Metal, 1.1 Million Promethium) x2
175 Cr (0.3 Cargo) - Complete Large Shipyards (110 Million Thrones, 25 Million Material, 18.75 Million Metal, 37.5 Million Promethium)
100 Cr - 12,500,000 Thrones

Cost/Gain
8.4 Cargo
+12,500,000 Thrones, -14,000,000 Promethium

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That is a huge amount of shipping capacity that is going unused. Are you sure that we shouldn't take advantage of the extra space and send Vanaheim a bunch of extra Promethium to improve our relationship wiht them?

MIDGARD (5 Merchantmen, 5 Navigators - 25 Cargo Available)
Sell
2100 Cr (3 Cargo) - 1.5 Billion Impalers per year (90,000,000 Thrones per year, 45,000,000 Material per year)
300 Cr (3.6 Cargo) - 15,000,000 Promethium per year
48 Cr (13.56 Cargo) - 60 units of food per year

Buy
105 Cr (24.15 Cargo) - 21 Million Colonists per year
1000 Cr - 150,000,000 Thrones per year
35 CR - 3,500,000 Material per year

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Ah! I dropped a zero when calculating! That means I'll need to recalculate, and probably won't ship them as much metal. Food instead it is...

Also, why are you buying material, we already have lots....

Actually, I just realized something horrifying. We can make a lot of money buying material from Midgard, using our production to turn it into metal, and then selling it back to Midgard!

Even taking into account our Throne cost of converting it! Seriously though, I'm not sure we want to buy Material from Midgard, seeing as we can just bank our excess.

SVARTALFHEIM (1 Merchantmen, 1 Navigators - 5 Cargo Available)
Sell
1,000 Cr - Plasma Cutter STC
5,000 Cr - Automated Forge STC

Buy
1200 Cr - 10,000 Advanced Material per year
3600 Cr - 150 Exoic Material per year
1000 Cr - 90,000,000 Thrones per year
29 Cr (4.93 Cargo) - 14,500,000 Material per year

Cost/Gain
4.93 Cargo
+90,000,000 Thrones, +14,500,000 Material per year

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So you're leaving some credits on the table, 171 Credits to be exact. All so we can get some more Throne income (which we already have plenty of) instead of just donating the STC which will surely get us increased favor? That does not seem wise.

NIFLHEIM (1 Merchantman, no Navigator - 1 Cargo Available)
Sell
2 Cr - 8 Million Impalers (480,000 Thrones, 240,000 Material)
1 Cr - Training (4 regiments assigned to Niflheim for next decade)
17 Cr - 2,125,000 Thrones

Buy
20 Cr (0.2 Cargo) - 1,000,000 Promethium per year

Cost/Gain
0.2 Cargo
-2,125,000 Thrones, +1,000,000 Promethium per year
-480,000 Thrones, -240,000 Material

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Again, durin confirmed that by donating the Impalers and Training we would get improved relationship scores.

 

[Elder Haman]

Recalculated the Midgard trade now that Enjou corrected my mistake and I see that the Impalers are 10 times as valuable as I thought they were:

[] Trade with Midgard, 5 Merchant + 5 Navigator = 25 Cargo Available
-[] Sell 1,500 Million Impalers per year (72,000,000 Thrones per year, 36,000,000 Material per year) = 2100 Credits, 3 Cargo
-[] Sell 15,000,000 Metal per a year = 540 Credits, 3.6 Cargo
-[] Sell 10,000,000 Promethium per a year = 200 Credits, 2.4 Cargo
-[] Sell 70 units of food per year = 56 Credits, 15.82 Cargo

Total Sale = 2896 Credits, 24.82 Cargo

-[] 21 million colonist per year = 105 Credits, 24.15 Cargo
-[] 150,000,000 Thrones per year = 1000 Credits

Total Cost = 1105 Credits, 24.15 Cargo

Bank 796 Credits with Midgard.

This means that I should have 9 million + net metal income before tithe, if the tithe is calculated on net income before trade then the cost should be ~2 million (based on the documented 19 million + income in the datasheet and 10% tithe).

So still 7 million metal coming in every turn.

And that's without doing anything like turning off some factories so we are not turning metal into material to go into our ever increasing stockpile of material. (I guess we could build a Death Star with it our something).

 

[Aranfan]

[x] Elder Haman

 

[Elder Haman]

@durin Based on our current production of metal, and the 10% tithe, can you just give us the exact number of how much we have to pay in tithe for metal?

Because the datasheets are very confusing and neither Enjou nor I are certain of how to calculate it.

 

[Enjou]

-[] Sell 15,000,000 Metal per a year = 540 Credits, 3.6 Cargo

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Durin confirmed he's using the same system he used before for tithes. I believe that this means that the tithe tax uses net production BEFORE we convert to production.

@durin Based on our current production of metal, and the 10% tithe, can you just give us the exact number of how much we have to pay in tithe for metal?

Because the datasheets are very confusing and neither Enjou nor I am certain of how to calculate it.

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@durin - agreed, it might be best if you go ahead and throw tithes into the datasheet so we know what we're working with.

 

[Elder Haman]

We have 140,675,466 production, so maybe the tithe is calculated based on the amount of metal produced before turning metal into material? That would put the taxable amount at close to 160 million, and the tithe at ~16 million.

That's a big difference.

If that is the case then I will drop the metal traded to Midgard (which is too bad).

Unless... I wonder if we should just idle 25 million of our production capacity? That would decrease our Material production by 25 Million (out of the current +91 million) and increase our metal from 19 million to 44 million. While also saving us 50 million thrones a turn too.

 

[Elder Haman]

ONE TIME COSTS/GAIN
Thrones = -432,000 (Asgard) - 480,000 (Nifleheim) - 1,800,000 (Museplheim) = -2,712,000
Material = -216,000 (Asgard) - 240,000 (Nifleheim) - 900,000 (Museplheim) = -1,356,000
Metal = N/A
Promethium = N/A
Advanced Material = 2,000 (Asgard)
Exotic Material = 100 (Asgard)

PER YEAR COSTS/GAIN
Thrones = -62,540,000 (Asgard) - 750,000 (Alfheim) + 12,500,000 (Vanaheim) + 60,000,000 (Midgard) + 90,000,000 (Svartalfheim) - 2,125,000 (Niflheim) - 2,500,000 (Muspelheim) = +94,585,000
Material = -41,500,000 (Midgard) + 14,500,000 (Svartalfheim) = -27,000,000
Metal = 5,000,000 (Asgard) + 1,000,000 (Muspelheim) = +6,000,000
Promethium = -14,000,000 (Vanaheim) - 15,000,000 (Midgard) + 1,000,000 (Niflheim) = 28,000,000
Advanced Material = -1,960 (Asgard) + 10,000 (Svartalfheim) = +8040
Exotic Material = -40 (Asgard) + 150 (Svartalfheim) = +110

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Just noticed that you forgot to include the costs of the Orbital Defenses and Shipyard Completion in your one time costs.

 

[Enjou]

That costs 180 Credits not 100 Credits

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Which makes this 119 Credits banked.

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Will fix.

Also, why are you buying material, we already have lots....

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Because there's empty space to ship it to us, and we're spending a very large amount on making 1.5 billion Impalers a year for them. So... why aren't you doing it?

Actually, I just realized something horrifying. We can make a lot of money buying material from Midgard, using our production to turn it into metal, and then selling it back to Midgard!

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I realize that's viable, but the part of me that hates waste and inefficiency is filled with wrath at this notion.

First of all, you are only selling 6 Credits worth and are buying 8 credits worth.

Second, durin confirmed that giving them the Training would improve their relationship status with us, so I think it's a no brainer to do so. As +1 relationship is surely worth 750,000 Thrones a year.

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Wrong credit value, right intended value of goods.

But sure, why the hell not.

That is a huge amount of shipping capacity that is going unused. Are you sure that we shouldn't take advantage of the extra space and send Vanaheim a bunch of extra Promethium to improve our relationship wiht them?

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@durin hasn't confirmed it would improve the relationship to give Vanaheim extra Promethium. If it would I might switch.

So you're leaving some credits on the table, 171 Credits to be exact. All so we can get some more Throne income (which we already have plenty of) instead of just donating the STC which will surely get us increased favor? That does not seem wise.

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Yes, I know I'm leaving something on the table.

Also @durin has not confirmed the STC gift would make a difference here or not. (he only confirmed on the impalers and training would help)

Also, it's not a small amount of thrones.

Just noticed that you forgot to include the costs of the Orbital Defenses and Shipyard Completion in your one time costs.

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That's because it costs them that rather than us, and we're just told that cost so we know what it would cost us if we didn't get them to do it for us. I think. @durin - can you confirm?

 

[Enjou]

[X] Trade with Nilfheim, 1 Merchant + 1 Navigator = 5 Cargo Available
-[X] Sell 8 Million Impalers (480,000 Thrones, 240,000 Materiel) = Gift
-[X] Sell Training (4 regiments assigned to Niflheim for next decade) = Gift
-[X] Sell 2,500,000 Thrones per a year = 20 Credits

-[X] Buy 1,000,000 Promethium per a year = 20 Credits, 2 Cargo

[X] Trade with Muspelheim, 1 Merchant + 1 Navigator = 5 Cargo Available
-[X] Sell 30 Million Impalers (1.8 Million Thrones, 900,000 Materiel) = 7 Credits
-[X] Sell Training (11 regiments assigned to Muspelheim for next decade) = 1 Credit
-[X] Sell 2,500,000 Thrones per a year = 20 Credits

-[X] Buy 1,000,000 Metal per a year = 20 Credits, 1.8 Cargo

Total left over = 8 Credits.

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Your cargo calculations here are wrong. We don't need Navigators for these trades. It's 0.2 Cargo for Niflheim and 0.18 Cargo for Muspelheim.

 

[Durin]

@durin Based on our current production of metal, and the 10% tithe, can you just give us the exact number of how much we have to pay in tithe for metal?

Because the datasheets are very confusing and neither Enjou nor I are certain of how to calculate it.

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	Thrones	Material	Metal	Promethium	Advanced Material	Exotic Material	Food
Tithe	-38,437,750	16,770,507	15,129,939	6,717,601	420		113

 

[Enjou]

Hmmm, guess the Imperium tithed 20%, or around there.

 

[Durin]

Will fix.



Because there's empty space to ship it to us, and we're spending a very large amount on making 1.5 billion Impalers a year for them. So... why aren't you doing it?



I realize that's viable, but the part of me that hates waste and inefficiency is filled with wrath at this notion.



Wrong credit value, right intended value of goods.

But sure, why the hell not.



@durin hasn't confirmed it would improve the relationship to give Vanaheim extra Promethium. If it would I might switch.



Yes, I know I'm leaving something on the table.

Also @durin has not confirmed the STC gift would make a difference here or not. (he only confirmed on the impalers and training would help)

Also, it's not a small amount of thrones.




That's because it costs them that rather than us, and we're just told that cost so we know what it would cost us if we didn't get them to do it for us. I think. @durin - can you confirm?

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The gift will increase your relationship
the cost for orbital and shipyard is how much you will have to pay. It represents them building it using local materials and saves a lot of transport and credits

just corrected tithe, origination numbers were wrong

 

[Enjou]

The gift will increase your relationship
the cost for orbital and shipyard is how much you will have to pay. It represents them building it using local materials and saves a lot of transport and credits

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Thanks, good to know. I guess I'll go ahead and gift the plasma cutter then.

just corrected tithe, origination numbers were wrong

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Well then, it was 10% before as well. Also, you've got positive numbers in there.


@Elder Haman - Based on the update tithes I think trading away any metal beyond what we are gaining is ill advised. Also, we need to trade less food - our current net before tithes is +74. (either that or resolve to research better hydroponics next turn, even if it means not exploring anything)

I'll be changing my plan accordingly.

 

[Elder Haman]

Will fix.

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Glad I'll have some company at the blink spider milking station this month.

Because there's empty space to ship it to us, and we're spending a very large amount on making 1.5 billion Impalers a year for them. So... why aren't you doing it?

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Because I think that banking credits with Midgard is better than purchasing more material when we have already proven unable to use the material we already have.

My assumption is that we are getting really good credit value now from trading to them raw materials when they are desperate for it, and in ten years we might not get as much, but there will be new more valuable things to buy once they finish retooling their economy.

@Elder Haman - Based on the update tithes I think trading away any metal beyond what we are gaining is ill advised. Also, we need to trade less food - our current net before tithes is +74. (either that or resolve to research better hydroponics next turn, even if it means not exploring anything)

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True, will adjust...

Unless you think idling some production is a viable idea.

@durin Can we idle 25 million production and so reduce our net material income by 25 million while increasing our metal and throne income by 25 and 50 million respectively?

@durin Also, will gifting Vanaheim 5+ million or so Promethium per a year increase our relationship with them?

 

[Enjou]

@durin Can we idle 25 million production and so reduce our net material income by 25 million while increasing our metal and throne income by 25 and 50 million respectively?

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I think that might put some people out of a job.

 

[Sirrocco]

[x] Elder Haman
...because his arguments are pretty compelling, he's willing to make tweaks and sensible about the tweaks he makes, and because, honestly, it's what I'm goign to end up voting in the end anyway.

 

[Durin]

Glad I'll have some company at the blink spider milking station this month.



Because I think that banking credits with Midgard is better than purchasing more material when we have already proven unable to use the material we already have.

My assumption is that we are getting really good credit value now from trading to them raw materials when they are desperate for it, and in ten years we might not get as much, but there will be new more valuable things to buy once they finish retooling their economy.



True, will adjust...

Unless you think idling some production is a viable idea.

@durin Can we idle 25 million production and so reduce our net material income by 25 million while increasing our metal and throne income by 25 and 50 million respectively?

@durin Also, will gifting Vanaheim 5+ million or so Promethium per a year increase our relationship with them?

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It will not have an effect on Thrones but you can

 

[Elder Haman]

               

	Thrones	Material	Metal	Promethium	Advanced Material	Exotic Material	Food
Tithe	-38,437,750	16,770,507	15,129,939	6,717,601	420		113

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How can our food tithe be 113? Our net is only 74.