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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Angelform said:
Short version: Have you heard of Brexit? The US Civil War? The Feudal Ages in general?
Having countries within countries is a volatile situation.

Long version: We want the Imperial Trust to be a unified polity. We want everyone within it to think of themselves as first and foremost members of the Imperial Trust and only consider regional or planetary allegiance a very, very distant second. We also want one set of constitutional laws that covers everyone. If we make exceptions for the Dragons then we will be all but forced to make exceptions for others. We would end up with a convoluted, territorial, internecine mess.

If we wanted to integrate Dragon's Nest without destabilizing the Trust we would essentially need to lift the High Council up a layer and create a 'regional authority' for the Trust's current holdings. Except that Dragon's Nest is vastly larger than the current Trust and the high council is made up of planetary governors. We would need to break the Nest up into smaller chunks anyway.
Frankly it would be easier to start from scratch, dismantling both polities to make a unified one.

@Durin
1 Does Lin have an opinion on the merger proposal?
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Historically most nations formed out of people who share common cultural or geographical concerns uniting to better face opposition tend to start out as gigantic messes. They often require a major reorganization, some point after people across the new polity begin thinking of themselves as having polity-wide concerns. There are a bunch of European examples, feudalism makes this worse, because a lot of people are going to define themselves as either feudal or not-fuedal and demand protectionism against being made the other type.
 
If we use a major favor with the Eldar they will teach us all they know about warp travel. From basics up. Which I think we should take since that would solve a lot of our current problems. All we know is that Eldar warp travel is significantly faster than what we have.
 
Nurgle said:
If we use a major favor with the Eldar they will teach us all they know about warp travel. From basics up. Which I think we should take since that would solve a lot of our current problems. All we know is that Eldar warp travel is significantly faster than what we have.
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I thought we were going to get FTL tech from the humanity get together?
 
infiltrators are an issue. but here's the thing, we already have that problem. Yes if we merge teach leakage is going to go up, but the benefits of being in a 148 world polity rather than a 37 world one are massive. It would let us stand up to the regional and some neighboring powers. Rember, we are smack dab in the middle of the black imperium's expansion route, long-term we are going to have to throw down with them. We cannot do that at a 37 world polity. but as a 148 world polity? we won't be bouncing black crusades, but we'll be at the level where the local system/sector chaos lords won't be able to take us on their own.

now, there is a valid point that this will be a merger, not an assimilation. Both the trust and the dragon's nest are going to have to massively rework their governments. But the purpose of the trust is to ensure our survival, and if that purpose is best served by doing a ground-up rebuild so be it.

as for the concern that we will have to spend a long time forting up dragons nest, they are already forted up and dug in. they already have a typical fortification level of 6. They are just going to need to upgun what is already there rather than build the forts from scratch. If we want to be able to grow merging is the way to go.
 
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They will have to implement militias probably wich wont be fun to do for established worlds .

And their orbital defense will have to built from scratch and their navy will have to be built from scratch aswell outside astartes stuff and even that might benefit to just switching to our daot stuff.

Also how is their shipyard situation ? They would have to upgrade ofcourse wich wouldnt be fun but if they have enough yards this might be abit more attractive than i thought before since we only have 3 yards and ours and midgards are kinda meh. And we could kill the 50-200ly threats and turoqs realm i guess if we merged succesfully is the main positive thought for merging and maybe after that consider the bigger regional threats.

My main thought is just do a century delay while they reform the hell out of their security and maybe negotiate what exactly the merge will be and then do the merge instead of introducing a 150 year window where we have to defend them like we would defend ourselves wich isnt ideal and they will be the main target i think aswell wich wont be fun.

and @Durin for the 2nd time but better worded.
1) Will dragons nest be in range of incoming attacks warning for ridicully if we start merging?
 
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Don't really get the distance excuse. We are going to want to expand out anyway so it's going to be an issue no matter what. Couldn't we just say split the fleets into something like sector fleets? Say that the current set up for the Trust gets to keep their fleet to cover the areas they have for them to practically defend the territory while the DN will have their own fleet dedicated to protecting their particular area.

Going to point out that I was going to suggest something similar when we got bigger where at some point our territories got big enough that splitting our fleet no longer becomes feasible.
 
What do we achieve with a merger that we don't achieve with a mutual defence treaty and an obligation to help them clean up their security apparatus to facilitate tech transfer ?
 
godofsmallthings said:
What do we achieve with a merger that we don't achieve with a mutual defence treaty and an obligation to help them clean up their security apparatus to facilitate tech transfer ?
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Unified economy
They gain access to all of our tech and we gain access to thier industry and economy.
We gain a large veteran force of space marines and armies of guardsmen and chapter serfs.
The ability to better direct military forces.
The ability to effect policy change and diplomacy Of dragon nest.
A large group of non conservative worlds and Admech.
 
atrophy said:
They will have to implement militias probably wich wont be fun to do for established worlds .

And their orbital defense will have to built from scratch and their navy will have to be built from scratch aswell outside astartes stuff and even that might benefit to just switching to our daot stuff.

Also how is their shipyard situation ? They would have to upgrade ofcourse wich wouldnt be fun but if they have enough yards this might be abit more attractive than i thought before since we only have 3 yards and ours and midgards are kinda meh. And we could kill the 50-200ly threats and turoqs realm i guess if we merged succesfully is the main positive thought for merging and maybe after that consider the bigger regional threats.

My main thought is just do a century delay while they reform the hell out of their security and maybe negotiate what exactly the merge will be and then do the merge instead of introducing a 150 year window where we have to defend them like we would defend ourselves wich isnt ideal and they will be the main target i think aswell wich wont be fun.

and @Durin for the 2nd time but better worded.
1) Will dragons nest be in range of incoming attacks warning for ridicully if we start merging?
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...Feels like people expressing their Avernite arrogance again.

atrophy said:
They will have to implement militias probably wich wont be fun to do for established worlds .

And their orbital defense will have to built from scratch and their navy will have to be built from scratch aswell outside astartes stuff and even that might benefit to just switching to our daot stuff.
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First off the worlds are run by astartes, imagine that if they haven't done the militia thing that it wouldn't be hard. Second they are not going to need to make their orbitals and navy from scratch since those are already built and would still be incredibly useful as they slowly upgraded overtime.

People seem to not be considering the fact that as an Astartes run polity that the DN is actually pretty damn good at defending themselves with their main problem seeming to be inflitrators(something that is a problem for us as well) which is something that isn't an issue for us since one of the suggestions was to just not give out tech to their worlds that do no have sufficient security while we helped them improve their security.
 
Red Bovine said:
People seem to not be considering the fact that as an Astartes run polity that the DN is actually pretty damn good at defending themselves with their main problem seeming to be inflitrators(something that is a problem for us as well) which is something that isn't an issue for us since one of the suggestions was to just not give out tech to their worlds that do no have sufficient security while we helped them improve their security.
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Yeah thats actually a great point. Treating worlds on a case by case basis is how we did things (and still do to a large degree) in the trust, mabye this will be the best way to incentivize progress in the dragons nest.
 
As I see it merging with the Dragon's Nest in 150 to 200 years is a no brainer. We are almost certainly going to lose Lin and some of our technology in that time and may well suffer other disasters and threats like Turoq, and the only real problem seems to be infiltrators... basically, are we willing to increase the risk of losing some of our tech in exchange for gaining a massive military, economic, and industrial boost, as well as a massive influx of Space Marines and Progressive AdMech?
I think so yes. Since this will allow us to tech up faster as well, potentially, if we can leverage the Dragon's Nest economy and AdMech into both faster reforms and broader usage of new and expensive technology.
 
Regardless of how people feel, we are going to bump against the Nest and grow closer regardless of what we choose, so a level of integration is needed and will happen regardless, officially or unofficially.
 
Undead Martyr said:
As I see it merging with the Dragon's Nest in 150 to 200 years is a no brainer. We are almost certainly going to lose Lin and some of our technology in that time and may well suffer other disasters and threats like Turoq, and the only real problem seems to be infiltrators... basically, are we willing to increase the risk of losing some of our tech in exchange for gaining a massive military, economic, and industrial boost, as well as a massive influx of Space Marines and Progressive AdMech?
I think so yes. Since this will allow us to tech up faster as well, potentially, if we can leverage the Dragon's Nest economy and AdMech into both faster reforms and broader usage of new and expensive technology.
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Didnt think of lin. Actually ridcully wont live forever either, so when put into that view it makes the option much more sensible.
 
Durin said:
Any merger will be slow and after much discussion. Even if you vote for one it will probably happen in around 150 years time
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This makes sense nothing on this scale would ever be done quickly. It need time and carful planing.

Enjou said:
The Forge-Empire and the Quartus Imperium both use a feudal system. I think that would work for us, because if we manage to get some faster travel I think we'll be expanding to several sectors.
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I think that around us is about four sectors worth of space. The Dragon's Nest is one, Us the worlds Valinor took and the some of the closer minor worlds make another, The Ork domain above us, Then the Remains of Toroq and the slaneesh domain make up the other two. That is about how far we could push I think if everything worked out in our favor. It's unlikely because something is going to happen to kick us back.

Dhiker said:
Finally Lin himself. Our current priorities are to make him live longer, and to protect him untill we can't anymore. If we integrate DN, we going to have to spare telepathica, inquisition, security, military and lots of other actions to make sure the DN is secure, while they can barely muster a military as large as ours despite their size. If the Trust merges with the DN in say a century, and in that time we triple our combined total Military we would still be chumps for a major attack. More importantly we would be chumps that are big enuf, that any fight Abbadon takes to us would not see his "Friends" coming to knock on his door.
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Unless we manage to get Lin to hit Transcendent then he will be dead long before we finish the merger. The amount of time it will take is at least 150 years and that is assuming we start right away. I wouldn't be surprised if we said yes merging is a good idea then worked on setting it up and started during the next High Council meeting.

Enerael said:
Valinor is 40 LYs away and consisted of 16 worlds.
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15 Worlds Daemon worlds don't count.

I do think we should merge with the DN it will be a long and careful process because neither side is an idiot. Both sides know the risks they are going to do their best to make this work. If people don't want to merge then we need to increase our relations with the DN anyways. I say we start make joint task groups and use them to hit the minor worlds. We should be in good enough relation that they will accept our Tech Priest's help with building up now. We should also do another tech trade and give them more of our STCs with a promise to share what we get from the conference. Sending some of our security personal to help on some of their worst worlds might be an option as well. If we want to get stronger we need the DN. If we don't merge or even if we do making the DN stronger is in our best interests.

I also think we should really start looking it colonizing the worlds we took from Valinor. They are close enough to not spread out our forces especially now that most of the colonies are secure. They will also take much less time to establish since we have learned a lot from our first expansion. Since it is less worlds and we are stronger and more setup than before we could get a faster return on the investment. This could help Midgard with its population problem by sending billions off to make new homes on the frontier. To make this work we would need to get most of the worlds down to at least Light levels of corruption so the other core worlds can send colonists. It should also be a joint effort with most worlds have people from all the worlds that can send people. All the core world except Nifelheim wound be able to send people and Nifelheim can take the ice world either in Valinor or in Helheim system.
 
looseanon said:
Oooooh cause of isha. Right.
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Yes, but control.

Though its more like 2000+ at this point, but if he hits transcendence/ascension before then.

looseanon said:
Well the timeline I have in my head for how this transpires is:
1) We decide a merger is in the trust's best interest
2) we inform the dragons nest, they start making preperations, we start making preperations
3) spies all across the two belligerents take a shot of the strongest alcohol they can get their hands on, chaos and orks start fighting over the pie that is us.
4) Ridcully gets into a 4 way street fight with tzeentch, gork and mork. the future seems uncertain.
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That seems unlikely.

We are capable of being subtle after all.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
The Helguard kills 10 times its number in Iron Guard before eventually being beaten.
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Seriously? I kinda really doubt it, since Helguard is both much more skilled an in power armour.
Enerael said:
Helguard is an exception, as a lots of what makes them elite is skill, not equipment and training.

That said, with how cheap the Midgardian Guard is, I would be very surprised if that was true.

Also consider, if elites were more efficient then regulars, why do we have regulars?
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And what, Space Marines or Mechanicus Battle Congregations or, I dunno, Assour's Immortals are not skilled? Every elite force in galaxy relies on skill as much as possible. What does it even mean, skill and not training makes them elites?

Because elites are not good at garrisoning, and because they eat different resources that we don't have in as big a supply. And we do try to make as elite an army as possible.
 
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