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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Andres110 said:
material upkeep at all.
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It'll cost a bomb in thrones though.

Andres110 said:
but wargear upgrades would help as well. Here's some stuff from the RPGs which our chaplains would find useful.
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Not really sure I want to debate this ATM, but I think quite a few of those items as is probably have some bomination issues.

Besides I think Lin can do better.

Not disagreeing though, however I'd not be surprised if he's been making improvements in the back ground and stuff.

Andres110 said:
A very expensive item, but something we should be able to give out in small numbers given all the other very expensive wargear we mass produce. Probably best to give it to those chaplains attached to elite troops.
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Even if ours only cost 1 AM to make I dunno how affordable that is.

Also surely the Rosarius doesn't serve the same purpose as it did during the Eclesiarchy, which was both to protect important priests as well as to wow the unwashed, uneducated masses with the Emperor's protection. Given our masses are neither unwashed nor uneducated I dunno if that works.

I dunno I think we can probably just stick em in power armour and use the cheaper and more effective Ion shields.

zzzz.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Also surely the Rosarius doesn't serve the same purpose as it did during the Eclesiarchy, which was both to protect important priests as well as to wow the unwashed, uneducated masses with the Emperor's protection. Given our masses are neither unwashed nor uneducated I dunno if that works.
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Well, no. A Rosarius is also kind of like a medal. Just as a Star of Terra would impress anyone who knows of its significance, a Rosarius would impress people because it'd let them know how worthy its wearer is to have received one.
 
Andres110 said:
Well, no. A Rosarius is also kind of like a medal. Just as a Star of Terra would impress anyone who knows of its significance, a Rosarius would impress people because it'd let them know how worthy its wearer is to have received one.
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Most citizens of the Imperium, hell most imperial guard, don't know what the hell a star of terra is, never mind what a Rosarius is and the chances of one picking it out from all the other garbage an imperial priest wears is unlikely unless the priest drew attention to it.

Most use it similar to Vandire, after all when people shoot them they glow so they start screeching about how "THE EMPEROR IS WITH THEM! ITS A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE" ect.

Which in fairness is probably quicker and more effective at inspiring quick fanaticism, but also doesn't really work on our dudes, especially when we have effectively cheaper alternatives.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Most citizens of the Imperium, hell most imperial guard, don't know what the hell a star of terra is, never mind what a Rosarius is and the chances of one picking it out from all the other garbage an imperial priest wears is unlikely unless the priest drew attention to it.
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Our people are both very educated and very pious.
 
Andres110 said:
Our people are both very educated and very pious.
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Which is exactly why the Rosarius doesn't work on them.

Its practical usage as a means of defence is pretty small to be honest, if that was what the Eclesearchy was after they'd stick them in power armour which can be almost as expensive, but with far more protection and general utility. They're used (at least in part, things like size also come in ect.) because they're flashy ways of inspiring faith in the uneducated with the minimal amount of yelling required.

A few stray shots and they're off to the races with a squad of fanatics convinced that the priest has the blessing of the Emperor.

By contrast our people are both well educated so likely know what a rosarius is, the reasons why the priest has a rosarius and their faith means that they would not be taken in by any claims of miracle or otherwise.

Better to stick em in advanced PA and paint them a special colour, maybe black if the Space Marine Chaplains are willing to share.
 
Andres110 said:
Your arguments contradict each other. I'm out.
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Where's the contradiction?

From the start my point was that the Rosarius has no practical purpose for our chaplains as its psychological effects are blunted to uselessness by improved education and significantly altered faith while the idea of them being impressed by being allowed to carry one in the first place doesn't carry weight since it has very little use as a real defence against modern foes, especially since Rosari don't work well through powered armour making it seem at best redundant to the practical avernites (a characteristic the Svartfar actively dislike about us) and at worst a waste of time and resources?

Our people would be much more impressed by being allowed to use elite armour like I imagine most officers already use as well as having a real practical effect on their life span.
 
Doomed Wombat said:
Where's the contradiction?
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Doomed Wombat said:
Most citizens of the Imperium, hell most imperial guard, don't know what the hell a star of terra is, never mind what a Rosarius is and the chances of one picking it out from all the other garbage an imperial priest wears is unlikely unless the priest drew attention to it.
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In short: "Our people are too uneducated to be impressed by a Rosarius."
Doomed Wombat said:
By contrast our people are both well educated so likely know what a rosarius is, the reasons why the priest has a rosarius and their faith means that they would not be taken in by any claims of miracle or otherwise.
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In short: "Our people are too educated to be impressed by a Rosarius."
 
Andres110 said:
In short: "Our people are too uneducated to be impressed by a Rosarius."

In short: "Our people are too educated to be impressed by a Rosarius."
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Ah here's the problem
Doomed Wombat said:
Most citizens of the Imperium, hell most imperial guard, don't know what the hell a star of terra is, never mind what a Rosarius is and the chances of one picking it out from all the other garbage an imperial priest wears is unlikely unless the priest drew attention to it.
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Emphasis mine.

I'm not talking about us if I were I'd have said "most citizens of the Trust" bla bla bla. Here I'm using that to illustrate why the Rosarius was an effective tool of zealotry in the Imperium due to lack of knowledge of what they were and thus why it doesn't work on us...

Was that not obvious?

I even say in the same thing that it doesn't work on our people...
Doomed Wombat said:
but also doesn't really work on our dudes
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Doomed Wombat said:
Was that not obvious?

I even say in the same thing that it doesn't work on our people...
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It was not obvious. When you said it doesn't work on our people, you said it was because they'd be unphased by "Christmas miracle". When you said it doesn't work on most people in the Imperium, it was because they don't know what a Rosarius is and what it means.
 
Andres110 said:
It was not obvious. When you said it doesn't work on our people, you said it was because they'd be unphased by "Christmas miracle". When you said it doesn't work on most people in the Imperium, it was because they don't know what a Rosarius is and what it means.
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Doomed Wombat said:
Most use it similar to Vandire, after all when people shoot them they glow so they start screeching about how "THE EMPEROR IS WITH THEM! ITS A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE" ect.

Which in fairness is probably quicker and more effective at inspiring quick fanaticism, but also doesn't really work on our dudes, especially when we have effectively cheaper alternatives.
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Oh really? For the Christmas Miracle I'm not referring to our people, I only bring up the Trust specifically until the end of the next sentence, where before I'm still talking about the Imperium.

Its not a big deal, its just that this seems like a rather large misunderstanding and I'm not sure where I went wrong at all, to the point I'm not sure I did, which is weird since my initial reaction is usually to blame myself.
 
Ok, look. It's simple. If our people are educated, they'd be wowed by the symbolic meaning of a Rosarius, same as they'd be wowed by the symbolic meaning of a Star of Terra, they just wouldn't be wowed by Christmas Miracle. If our people are uneducated they wouldn't be wowed by its symbolic meaning, but they would be wowed by Christmas Miracle. Either way, whether educated or uneducated, for one reason or another, our people are getting wowed.
 
Hasn't it been said before that Faith makes you ABomination bait? We don't even know if the Rosarius has been Abomination corrupted.
 
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HanEmpire said:
Does Saint Lin really count as having "faith" though?
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Yes. He has so much faith that his Piety (hint hint) description says it blazes out of him, it was his faith that was tested when he looked at the Abomination, his faith was tested again during the First Daemonic Incursion, he's a living symbol of faith, and his faith is so utter that it's an example to humans everywhere.
 
Durin has said that Faith is a weakness for everyone not a Hero (AKA people like Lin, Ridcully). He said that when shooting down your Sisters of Battle idea, remember?
 
With regards to corruption and corruption resistance for our people, I see two major issues with using Imperium-developed methods/symbols.

The first and obvious one is that a significant portion of them were tainted by the birth of the Abomination, making them memetic threats of varying degrees. This does not make everything related to the old Imperial Truth or the Imperium of Man Abomination bait, but it is a significant threat that makes attempts to use such things actively harmful if it is among the affected. However, this is a problem only for those things that are affected—an unaffected symbol, even if closely tied to the Imperium, is not Abomination bait by itself.

The second issue, which is the one that really screws with a lot of these ideas though, is that abilities/traits that depended on the Emperor's presence no longer work. This includes effectively all of the easy purification or anti-corruption symbols/rituals. Thanks to the Astronomicon and the faith of humanity, the Emperor's energy was relatively easy to tap into using relevant symbols and rituals in order to purge/protect from Chaos, which is otherwise really fucking horribly hard to deal with. Thus, damn near every way of dealing with Chaos radiation from the Imperium was based on using it. Unfortunately, said power is no longer available, and all of the tricks for tapping into it now do nothing, be they based on prayer or specially designed torches or whatever.
 
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