The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Saotome Nakazawa]

The valinorians, they are still humans correct?

When I read some of the threads, it seems like they still have a sort of civillization, one that lasted for centuries, they do still have emotions right?


They have a concept of mother loving her children, a group of boys talking about girls they like and other humane qualities right?

They still have love ones they don't want anything bad happenning to, daughters that read trashy romance novels and they do feel emotions such as love, lust , loneliness correct?

If its true that they retain human qualities, then won't genociding them be a evil act, no better than the old imperium killing innocent humans and aliens in their zealotry.

If there is still a chance that they retain their humanity then won't disarming them, cutting back on their military might, their sense of self preservation , surrender or propaganda be enought to at the very least rmake them not want to do chaos and evil stuff in exchange for letting them exist?

Whatabout appealing to their humanity not to damned their children to a fate worse than death or just quarantining them, sterilizing them at the worst, or taking the new generation of their children away and saving them.

 

[ArchAIngel]

The valinorians, they are still humans correct?

When I read some of the threads, it seems like they still have a sort of civillization, one that lasted for centuries, they do still have emotions right?


They have a concept of mother loving her children, a group of boys talking about girls they like and other humane qualities right?

They still have love ones they don't want anything bad happenning to, daughters that read trashy romance novels and they do feel emotions such as love, lust , loneliness correct?

If its true that they retain human qualities, then won't genociding them be a evil act, no better than the old imperium killing innocent humans and aliens in their zealotry.

If there is still a chance that they retain their humanity then won't disarming them, cutting back on their military might, their sense of self preservation , surrender or propaganda be enought to at the very least rmake them not want to do chaos and evil stuff in exchange for letting them exist?

Whatabout appealing to their humanity not to damned their children to a fate worse than death or just quarantining them, sterilizing them at the worst, or taking the new generation of their children away and saving them.

Click to shrink...

I wish.

I wish that could work.

But Chaos is all consuming, all corrupting. It cannot be allowed to continue. No matter if gold or the old four.

The best we can grant them is the Emperor's Mercy.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

I wish.

I wish that could work.

But Chaos is all consuming, all corrupting. It cannot be allowed to continue. No matter if gold or the old four.

The best we can grant them is the Emperor's Mercy.

Click to shrink...

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

I read somewhere that Abaddon retain his humanity, not wanting to serve chaos, just using them to remake the imperium into his own version, he even has friends, his companion even has a senae of humor, the dark elder and a daemonette even went from trying to kill each other to friends?

Can't Valinor just be quarantined like the orcsbeing kept in intermitent camps in warcaft after the alliance-orc war the orcs were tainted by the burning legion and the alliance didn't genocide them.


Didn't Magnus retain his sense of self?

 

[Valkur]

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

I read somewhere that Abaddon retain his humanity, not wanting to serve chaos, just using them to remake the imperium into his own version, he even has friends, his companion even has a senae of humor, the dark elder and a daemonette even went from trying to kill each other to friends?

Can't Valinor just be quarantined like the orcsbeing kept in intermitent camps in warcaft after the alliance-orc war the orcs were tainted by the burning legion and the alliance didn't genocide them.


Didn't Magnus retain his sense of self?

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Magnus died by being punched into nothing and Aabadon wants to obliterate the Imperium. 40k has no diplomacy. Evil is Evil.

In wow there seems to at least be the theory of people just wanting to fricking live. 40k won't allow ANY coexistence.

 

[ArchAIngel]

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

I read somewhere that Abaddon retain his humanity, not wanting to serve chaos, just using them to remake the imperium into his own version, he even has friends, his companion even has a senae of humor, the dark elder and a daemonette even went from trying to kill each other to friends?

Can't Valinor just be quarantined like the orcsbeing kept in intermitent camps in warcaft after the alliance-orc war the orcs were tainted by the burning legion and the alliance didn't genocide them.


Didn't Magnus retain his sense of self?

Click to shrink...

It is Chaos. There is no safety from Chaos. It cannot be allowed, or it will seep in.


Abbadon is an exception, and Chaos can have a sense of humor, it's simply one that finds things like "eating a child alive in front of their parents" funny.

This is not Warcraft it is Warhammer.

 

[HanEmpire]

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

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They don't retain their Humanity, that's the thing. These are memetic Imperials, meaning they literally can't be reasoned with and will react to anything and everything that contradicts their dogma with violence.

 

[DeusFerreus]

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

I read somewhere that Abaddon retain his humanity, not wanting to serve chaos, just using them to remake the imperium into his own version, he even has friends, his companion even has a senae of humor, the dark elder and a daemonette even went from trying to kill each other to friends?

Can't Valinor just be quarantined like the orcsbeing kept in intermitent camps in warcaft after the alliance-orc war the orcs were tainted by the burning legion and the alliance didn't genocide them.


Didn't Magnus retain his sense of self?

Click to shrink...

All those are immensely strong-willed people with wide breadth of knowledge. Average Valinor citizen-slave is extremely indoctrinated, exposed to constant Chaos corruption since their conception and had their will ground down to almost nothing. They would rather kill themselves rather than surrender. We might be able to re-educate/re-habilitate tiny fraction of Valinor's population if we tried going all-out for it, but we would almost certainly loose many times that number of our own people to suicidal fanatics and corruption.

And that's ignoring ludicrous amounts of resources and manpower your plan would require to implement against polity with population in the hundreds of billions, we couldn't afford to do this in the safe times, much less in the current galaxy that constantly keeps throwing massive threats at us.

 

[Durin]

All those are immensely strong-willed people with wide breadth of knowledge. Average Valinor citizen-slave is extremely indoctrinated, exposed to constant Chaos corruption since their conception and had their will ground down to almost nothing. They would rather kill themselves rather than surrender. We might be able to re-educate/re-habilitate tiny fraction of Valinor's population if we tried going all-out for it, but we would almost certainly loose many times that number of our own people to suicidal fanatics and corruption.

And that's ignoring ludicrous amounts of resources and manpower your plan would require to implement against polity with population in the hundreds of billions, we couldn't afford to do this in the safe times, much less in the current galaxy that constantly keeps throwing massive threats at us.

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not to mention that non of those mentioned were raised following chaos. as far as I know there are not examples in 40k of anyone who fell to Chaos coming back, with the possible exceptions of some who went for redemption in death.

 

[thamuzz]

The valinorians, they are still humans correct?

When I read some of the threads, it seems like they still have a sort of civillization, one that lasted for centuries, they do still have emotions right?


They have a concept of mother loving her children, a group of boys talking about girls they like and other humane qualities right?

They still have love ones they don't want anything bad happenning to, daughters that read trashy romance novels and they do feel emotions such as love, lust , loneliness correct?

If its true that they retain human qualities, then won't genociding them be a evil act, no better than the old imperium killing innocent humans and aliens in their zealotry.

If there is still a chance that they retain their humanity then won't disarming them, cutting back on their military might, their sense of self preservation , surrender or propaganda be enought to at the very least rmake them not want to do chaos and evil stuff in exchange for letting them exist?

Whatabout appealing to their humanity not to damned their children to a fate worse than death or just quarantining them, sterilizing them at the worst, or taking the new generation of their children away and saving them.

Click to shrink...

How did you know that? If they retain their humanity then, they aren't a lost cause.

I read somewhere that Abaddon retain his humanity, not wanting to serve chaos, just using them to remake the imperium into his own version, he even has friends, his companion even has a senae of humor, the dark elder and a daemonette even went from trying to kill each other to friends?

Can't Valinor just be quarantined like the orcsbeing kept in intermitent camps in warcaft after the alliance-orc war the orcs were tainted by the burning legion and the alliance didn't genocide them.


Didn't Magnus retain his sense of self?

Click to shrink...

A fundamental part of what makes 40k 40k is that it is a universe where this mindset is not only fundamentally, objectively wrong, but suicidal as well.

No civilization that embraced that view of the world survived the Age of Strife. None that embraced it now could hope to survive this age of darkness.

An open mind is truly a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Chaos corrupts. Once fallen, it requires the direct intervention of some thing on the Emperor's tier to get even a moments reprieve.

Welcome to the Cosmic Horror genre. Enjoy your complimentary despair.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

not to mention that non of those mentioned were raised following chaos. as far as I know there are not examples in 40k of anyone who fell to Chaos coming back, with the possible exceptions of some who went for redemption in death.

Click to shrink...

The imperium never gave any a chance, it just kills those affiliated with chaos , making the victims renounce the imperium and potentially their humanity in response.

 

[HanEmpire]

The imperium never gave any a chance, it just kills those affiliated with chaos , making the victims renounce the imperium and potentially their humanity in response.

Click to shrink...

Taking up Chaos automatically means renouncing Humanity and the Imperium. Plus Chaos being a memetic threat, having any shred of it around threatens outbreaks of corruption and eventually daemonic invasions.

 

[Stormgear]

Point of order, they're genuinely trying to murder us and everything that we love. Kill them all, let the Emperor sort it out.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

A fundamental part of what makes 40k 40k is that it is a universe where this mindset is not only fundamentally, objectively wrong, but suicidal as well.

No civilization that embraced that view of the world survived the Age of Strife. None that embraced it now could hope to survive this age of darkness.

An open mind is truly a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Chaos corrupts. Once fallen, it requires the direct intervention of some thing on the Emperor's tier to get even a moments reprieve.

Welcome to the Cosmic Horror genre. Enjoy your complimentary despair.

Click to shrink...

I'm not asking roleplayers or larpers who meme the hell out of warhammer, I'm asking rational sv players with metaknowledge and modern morality who know better and are uncorrupted by blind zealotry, indoctrination of the fascist imperium.

 

[ArchAIngel]

I'm not asking roleplayers or larpers who meme the hell out of warhammer, I'm asking rational sv players with metaknowledge and modern morality who know better and are uncorrupted by blind zealotry, indoctrination of the fascist imperium.

Click to shrink...

And you know the scary part?

The result is the exact same thing.

Cleanse.

Purge.

Kill.

It's the right thing to do.

 

[Andres]

One line that held your attention is "While an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded, self-knowledge is the foundation on which the fortress is built and must be discovered before the fortress is truly secure."

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@Durin

1. Do our superior mind fortresses give us a better chance of resisting mental influence?
2. While the Valinorians' mind fortresses are boosted by the Abomination, are their base mind fortresses inferior due to not having self-knowledge? If so, would that provide an avenue of attack for our telepaths?

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

And you know the scary part?

The result is the exact same thing.

Cleanse.

Purge.

Kill.

It's the right thing to do.

Click to shrink...

That contradicts what I read about Abaddon in a forum, by the short glimpse of his character, he seems redeemable, levelheaded and he retain his humanity a far cry from the mindless ax crazy khornites, death gospel minded nurglites, deprave slaaneshi, and I don't know much about tzeentch cultists.

 

[HanEmpire]

I'm not asking roleplayers or larpers who meme the hell out of warhammer, I'm asking rational sv players with metaknowledge and modern morality who know better and are uncorrupted by blind zealotry, indoctrination of the fascist imperium.

Click to shrink...

And that's where we're coming from when we advocate genocide against the Chaos corrupted. The way that Chaos corruption works means that cleansing flames is literally the only solution we have, at least until Humanity attains Old One levels of Warp-mastery. That's eons away btw.

 

[thamuzz]

I'm not asking roleplayers or larpers who meme the hell out of warhammer, I'm asking rational sv players with metaknowledge and modern morality who know better and are uncorrupted by blind zealotry, indoctrination of the fascist imperium.

Click to shrink...

In our universe, that can work.

Unfortunately, a core conceit of 40k is that modern morality is objectively naive to the point of insanity.

Empathy is objectively a path to certain ruin.

Hell reigns supreme, and those that it touches are lost forever. This is no more debatable in universe than the statement 1=1.

Like I said, its a cosmic horror setting with a hefty dose of black comedy thrown in for good measure.

That contradicts what I read about Abaddon in a forum, by the short glimpse of his character, he seems redeemable, levelheaded and he retain his humanity a far cry from the mindless ax crazy khornites, death gospel minded nurglites, deprave slaaneshi, and I don't know much about tzeentch cultists.

Click to shrink...

Please consider your source. Abbadon is a willing, eager servant of Chaos. If he clings to any shred of humanity, it is through pride and arrogance, not empathy.
He literally, not figuratively, cannot be redeemed. Its a nonsensical proposition.
It would be like trying to draw a circle where pi would calculate as 3.

 

[DeusFerreus]

That contradicts what I read about Abaddon in a forum, by the short glimpse of his character, he seems redeemable, levelheaded and he retain his humanity a far cry from the mindless ax crazy khornites, death gospel minded nurglites, deprave slaaneshi, and I don't know much about tzeentch cultists.

Click to shrink...

He's responsible for destruction, corruption and devastation of many planets, deaths probably counting in quadrillions, torture and slavery on unfathomable scale and many other uncountable atrocities. The fact that he did while still maintaining shreds of humanity makes him even more of irredeemable and abominable monster, not less.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

In our universe, that can work.

Unfortunately, a core conceit of 40k is that modern morality is objectively naive to the point of insanity.

Empathy is objectively a path to certain ruin.

Hell reigns supreme, and those that it touches are lost forever. This is no more debatable in universe than the statement 1=1.

Like I said, its a cosmic horror setting with a hefty dose of black comedy thrown in for good measure.



Please consider your source. Abbadon is a willing, eager servant of Chaos. If he clings to any shred of humanity, it is through pride and arrogance, not empathy.
He literally, not figuratively, cannot be redeemed. Its a nonsensical proposition.
It would be like trying to draw a circle where pi would calculate as 3.

Click to shrink...

Its the one whereAbaddon is with a darkeldar, daemonette a world eater ( I think) something about his ally sorcerer being punched.



What about this scenario, destroying the shipyards, war factories of the valinorians, demanding a surrender.

Warding a area to protect from daemon warp influence, demand all children attend the rehabilitation school, sterilize the other population. Show children horror of warp and chaos gods, show atrocities being committed by chaos, deconstruct their religious beliefs by making their claims. Of chaos being good untrue.

 

[Andres]

The way that Chaos corruption works means that cleansing flames is literally the only solution we have, at least until Humanity attains Old One levels of Warp-mastery.

Click to shrink...

Not quite Old Ones. The Everqueen purified a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. Still further than anything we could possibly do, but not quite Old Ones.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

He's responsible for destruction, corruption and devastation of many planets, deaths probably counting in quadrillions, torture and slave on unfathomable scale and many other uncountable atrocities. The fact that he did while still maintaining shreds of humanity makes him even more of irredeemable and abominable monster, not less.

Click to shrink...

I had no idea about that and his high body count, but the imperium probably does it too.

 

[Artemis1992]

Its the one whereAbaddon is with a darkeldar, daemonette a world eater ( I think) something about his ally sorcerer being punched.

Click to shrink...

I think that was a funny, but really bad, quest I saw linked on 4chan.
Not even close to canon.

Edit: Are you trolling? That's about the worst possible source imaginable.

 

[HanEmpire]

Not quite Old Ones. The Everqueen purified a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. Still further than anything we could possibly do, but not quite Old Ones.

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True, but that's still involved divine intervention to pull off. Not an easy feat for us.

What about this scenario, destroying the shipyards, war factories of the valinorians, demanding a surrender.

Click to shrink...

The Chaos worshipers dig into the world and turn their entire society towards bitter siege defence, fighting to the very last in His name. No man died in His service that died in vain, and all that.

EDIT:

I had no idea about that and his high body count, but the imperium probably does it too.

Click to shrink...

Abaddon literally built a ship to blow up planets that got in his way. You're trying to play apologetics for one of the most evil characters in 40k.

 

[Saotome Nakazawa]

I think that was a funny, but really bad, quest I saw linked on 4chan.
Not even close to canon.

Edit: Are you trolling? That's about the worst possible source imaginable.

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No I'm not I read about his character in a forum, i forgot the name of the forum , it was random search in the internet for what cultists do in their daily lives and what kind of people they are.