The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Doomed Wombat]

For now I think I'm going to wait for @Durin to get back and give him the compromise idea (as in we give it to Surt)

If it's a yay then great should placate the Conservatives, if not then I'll ask for reasoning, if it's good then I'll go for it.

@TotallyNotEvil, satisfactory for now?

Unless we suddenly get a massive boost in comms tech taking anymore worlds is frankly fanciful for us so Surt's suggestion isn't bad, it seems to be trying to get the best balance between two extremes and given his nature I'd wager he thought this through carefully.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

We need to build a empire that can not only survive what is too come but thrives and faces the challenges internally and externally. Expecting on the current members of the Trust to not oppress them or to act on what needs to be done is not a good idea in my opinion.

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And to do so, we must not introduce many new, needless points of failure. Chaos, Abomination, sheer human nature and the very nature of the competition makes this a bad idea.

They aren't oppressed, and there is essentially no reason to believe the entirety of the High Council would turn into galatic-scale sadists and start issue cruel orders to the colonies just for kicks.

In this case then Surt's proposal is completely fine, unless we go on a massive conquering spree again, which I am very much against then adding a single seat for every 25 worlds is rather too few really.

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What's the time for the Emperor to be reborn? 5 thousand years?

Yeah, that's for how long, at least, we must plan. Having enemies in our doorstep isn't the greatest idea, longterm. Especially as everyone but us gets to cheat.

I'm thinking on a Sector scale, as that's how big we can possibly get.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

And to do so, we must not introduce many new, needless points of failure. Chaos, Abomination, sheer human nature and the very nature of the competition makes this a bad idea.

They aren't oppressed, and there is essentially no reason to believe the entirety of the High Council would turn into galatic-scale sadists and start issue cruel orders to the colonies just for kicks.

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On the other hand giving the colonies a real voice up here isn't a bad idea either, in fact it's a very good one as it should prevent any potential sedition form those exact same things you mentioned as being threats.

For now I'm compromising, but I'll not be sad if Surt rejects it, as compared to what it could be this is the best option.

What's the time for the Emperor to be reborn? 5 thousand years?

Yeah, that's for how long, at least, we must plan. Having enemies in our doorstep isn't the greatest idea, longterm. Especially as everyone but us gets to cheat.

I'm thinking on a Sector scale, as that's how big we can possibly get.

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And I'm thinking screw that we have the Blood Dragons.

We can let them expand to massive scale and hide us from people out for our blood and if they decide to suddenly turn bananas we've got a little surprise for them in the form of **** you force concentration *****s.

And no we get to cheat a lot, in fact we cheat a shit ton compared to everyone else.

It's also not practical to think that far a head, we have to be in the near future.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the other hand giving the colonies a real voice up here isn't a bad idea either, in fact it's a very good one as it should prevent any potential sedition form those exact same things you mentioned as being threats.

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As long as we agree that's strictly a voice, and not a vote, than I have no problems as long as we don't need an amphiteather to hold the meetings.

The decision to do so for exceptional individuals is already agreed by unanimously, in fact.

 

[Nurgle]

And to do so, we must not introduce many new, needless points of failure. Chaos, Abomination, sheer human nature and the very nature of the competition makes this a bad idea.

They aren't oppressed, and there is essentially no reason to believe the entirety of the High Council would turn into galatic-scale sadists and start issue cruel orders to the colonies just for kicks.

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It is not about the High council issuing orders that are sadistic or evil. Most people are apathetic to the needs of other people. Oppression does not have to actively it can be a simple as ignoring someone because what they say has no affect on what they do.


The colonies need a say in what happens in their goverment.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

It is not about the High council issuing orders that are sadistic or evil. Most people are apathetic to the needs of other people. Oppression does not have to actively it can be a simple as ignoring someone because what they say has no affect on what they do.


The colonies need a say in what happens in their goverment.

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And they already have. It's called the Low Council, and for the most part, it runs itself.

Have we as Rotbart ever gotten questions about deciding this or that for a colony somewhere? No? Because the system is designed so that they can have the needed autonomy to solve that kind of thing.

 

[Stormgear]

Why not make it specifically that subsector governors for groups of colonial worlds (within a certain maximum distance from a single point or a maximum number of worlds, whichever maximum is reached first) count as part of the high council? We can raise the maximum number of worlds to 50 or something, and the maximum district size (in terms of light years) should hopefully minimize jockeying for voting power and keep voting issues local. As written now, the 25 world/vote is too easily exploitable IMO.

 

[Nurgle]

And they already have. It's called the Low Council, and for the most part, it runs itself.

Have we as Rotbart ever gotten questions about deciding this or that for a colony somewhere? No? Because the system is designed so that they can have the needed autonomy to solve that kind of thing.

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But the High council is there to make the important decisions like trade, defense, technology, who we make war on, and negotiations with other Polities to worlds.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

And they already have. It's called the Low Council, and for the most part, it runs itself.

Have we as Rotbart ever gotten questions about deciding this or that for a colony somewhere? No? Because the system is designed so that they can have the needed autonomy to solve that kind of thing.

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No, but we've never established a colony ourselves so who knows .

Frankly I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I do understand your logic.

The problem is real and apparent however, the high council makes decisions that affect everything from trade, to how many soldiers need to be sent off world and not giving what is likely to become the largest part of our population a voice and a vote in this even if it's just one doesn't quite sit right with me morally (I know Ironic coming from me of all people.)

 

[Shard]

We need to rework the entire system to account for the new colonies. 25/seat is kind of a stopgap measure; We have to accept that power will eventually flow outward to the colonies, though.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Why not make it specifically that subsector governors for groups of colonial worlds (within a certain maximum distance from a single point or a maximum number of worlds, whichever maximum is reached first) count as part of the high council? We can raise the maximum number of worlds to 50 or something, and the maximum district size (in terms of light years) should hopefully minimize jockeying for voting power and keep voting issues local. As written now, the 25 world/vote is too easily exploitable IMO.

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That's an idea too.

We need to rework the entire system to account for the new colonies. 25/seat is kind of a stopgap measure; We have to accept that power will eventually flow outward to the colonies, though.

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Given Mar Sara was made canon and if it's any indicator yeah.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

Wow, sometimes the thread can really get into gear.

taking anymore worlds is frankly fanciful for us

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Why so? As soon as the territory we just took is properly consolidated, I don't see any reason we want to not remove our most threatening neighbours.

[X] Propose a compromise on Surt's proposal, where for every Subsector sized space of the Trust there is a single honorary council member. They will have the same rights as outlined in the proposal of Marshal Sigurd.

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Has potential, but it's getting to be a lot of non-voting high-council members. We might have to dedicate some space in the room for a peanut gallery. Maybe we can sell them peanuts, too.

[X] Ask the high council to consider how the High council is going to continue in the future. It needs to be able to react quickly to threats, remain centralised, not turn into an Imperium like oppressive group and govern without wasting all of it's time politicking. Ask the council members to consider how best to ensure that the high council continues to be an efficient organisation in the face of a large expansion in the near future.

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Isn't that basically what Garp made his proposal for?
These concerns are also why we're voting against Surt. Hope his feelings aren't hurt.

 

[godofsmallthings]

I think people are forgetting the purpose of the High Council. If you read the Trust constitution you would find that the Low Council has enormous powers in its hand. The Low Council is pretty much a self governing body with equal representation for all the Trust members.

The High Council doesn't even interfere in the matters of the Low Council unless there is a pertinent matter. Even then they can only over rule the Low Council according the constitution.


The entire point of having the Low Council was to let the Trust planets have enormous amount of autonomy.

The High Council is a not the ruling body of the Trust. It deals with new problems as they arise. It needs to be lean so that decision can be taken swiftly.

We don't have to bloat the High Council to give the colonies new powers. We can just amend the powers of the Low Council.

 

[Shard]

Uhh, the HIgh Council is the ruling body of the Trust.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Why so? As soon as the territory we just took is properly consolidated, I don't see any reason we want to not remove our most threatening neighbours.

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Because they're really far away, or they're chaos corrupted.

Valinor is close enough, but well chaos. I don't want anything living too close to a Demon world and everything else is either Blood Dragon or soon will be.

After that the closest assorted worlds are 50 LY away from us which is probably a bit too far away for me to be comfortable.

Isn't that basically what Garp made his proposal for?

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I guess?

Not sure really.

The High Council is a not the ruling body of the Trust. It deals with new problems as they arise. It needs to be lean so that decision can be taken swiftly.

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No it is the ruling body.

It doesn't handle day to day affairs, but the constitution setting the rules for the low council, declaring war ect. that's its job.

 

[godofsmallthings]

Uhh, the HIgh Council is the ruling body of the Trust.

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Yeah but it doesn't rule the colonies directly. That is done by the Low Council.

 

[Shard]

[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote for Surt's proposal
[X] Bring up the problem of the Imperial Bank, specifically Article VIII subsection 2, which stipulates that the Nine Worlds must have 70% of the shares of the Trust's bank and that no other organisation can have more than 3% of the remainder noting the potential economic and equality issues this could present. Ask that a vote be held on this within the next 50 years at a minimum similar to Garp.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

On the subject of sedition, we don't necessarily have to send in the legions to put down rebellions, we have super-elite operatives. Although that's mostly for non-popular, political rebellions.
The Provinces already outnumber us in worlds, and they might in the future outnumber us in population and military power. If they agree to put an ultimatum on the Core Worlds, they might be able to get a whole lot more votes than what Surt is proposing.
Maybe Surt is trying to prevent that, to minimise the Council bloat.
@Alex pears alternate proposal would organise the Province Worlds in their sectors, which is a natural structuring, which may be one reason behind Surt's number of 25: No sub-sectors are going to have 25 worlds, probably would take three sub-sectors together, and they're going to be so spread out geographically that they won't be making their votes according to geographical interest. Plus, 25 people are going to have a hard time getting their own interests through with only one vote to spare.
Maybe we're being greedy and short-sighted in voting against Surt. He might be sneakier and more pragmatic than we give him credit for.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Maybe we're being greedy and short-sighted in voting against Surt. He might be sneakier and more pragmatic than we give him credit for.

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Oh who'd have thought the historian with incredible abilities and probably the most unbiased human history in the universe would have a much sneakier and pragmatic view of things seeing as he has thousands of examples of where things went wrong.

Seriously he wouldn't propose a plan if he hadn't thought it through because unlike pretty much everyone else Surt is objectively the most intelligent man in the Room.

He's certainly got the best view of things it's mostly because of him we have a Trust at all.

 

[AlsoSprachOdin]

Seriously he wouldn't propose a plan if he hadn't thought it through because unlike pretty much everyone else Surt is objectively the most intelligent man in the Room.

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I don't like voting by the "appeal to authority" method. ¯\__/¯

 

[Angelform]

I find it absolutly hilarious that people are saying the colonies will need representation.
Might I remind everyone that most of our citizens don't even have a say in the running of their planet, or even city, let alone the Trust. That most of the nine worlds are either dictatorships or oligarchies.
Warhammer is not a universe were democracy and the right of humans to self-determination is seen as important. Or even desirable in many cases.

For now I'm voting against, although I'm hoping that Durin gives the write in the go ahead.

[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote against Surt's proposal

 

[Speed53066]

[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote against Surt's proposal
-[X] Convince Svartalfheim to vote against this proposal
[X] Bring up the problem of the Imperial Bank, specifically Article VIII subsection 2, which stipulates that the Nine Worldsmust have 70% of the shares of the Trust's bank and that no other organisation can have more than 3% of the remainder noting the potential economic and equality issues this could present. Ask that a vote be held on this within the next 50 years at a minimum similar to Garp.


How about we change it, I mean we don't want it to end up like the american congress. A tone of opinions, and not a lot getting done. We need the trust to be quick and fast, not slow and lumbering.

 

[TotallyNotEvil]

Another two things to consider:
1) Surt is not infallible.
2) He might very well be extremely biased due to DAoT beliefs. We are remnants of twelve thousand years of Imperial doctrine. The likely republican/democratic views of DAoT are not something to base Imperium policy on.

[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote against Surt's proposal
-[X] Convince Svartalfheim to vote against this proposal
[X] Bring up the problem of the Imperial Bank, specifically Article VIII subsection 2, which stipulates that the Nine Worldsmust have 70% of the shares of the Trust's bank and that no other organisation can have more than 3% of the remainder noting the potential economic and equality issues this could present. Ask that a vote be held on this within the next 50 years at a minimum similar to Garp.

 

[noliar]

[X] godofsmallthings

Right now the colonies are ablative armour. Maybe in a hundred years we'll want to do something like Surt's proposal but there's no hurry. Sigurd's proposal lets us ad hoc extra members in if we think a particular interest needs representation. (It's specifically not for that but when has that ever stopped anyone?)

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Warhammer is not a universe were democracy and the right of humans to self-determination is seen as important. Or even desirable in many cases.

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How about we change it, I mean we don't want it to end up like the american congress. A tone of opinions, and not a lot getting done. We need the trust to be quick and fast, not slow and lumbering.

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No, but I'm not against giving what will hopefully become very powerful groups in their own right a voice.

If it comes to it I hope I can get you lot to vote for the write in.

1) Surt is not infallible.
2) He might very well be extremely biased due to DAoT beliefs. We are remnants of twelve thousand years of Imperial doctrine. The likely republican/democratic views of DAoT are not something to base Imperium policy on.

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1. True.
2. Not true. The DAoT were not unified or democratic as far as I can tell. We don't have the best sample size, but Midgard has royalty, the Vanir like to keep going on about how their system goes back to the DAoT, Jotunhiem seems to be a coperate based thing, Mupelhiem's got something similar to the Trust on a smaller scale and Asgard is a knight world. Little democracy to be found.

As for the 12000 years of doctrine... yeah pity about that.