The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%
  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%

  • Total voters
    738
X] Vote for Surt's proposal

X] Vote for Surt's proposal

X] Vote for Surt's proposal

X] Vote for Surt's proposal
This is kind of tremendously important. Can I ask why you guys are voting for this?

One seat now will quickly grow to more seats than the founding members. And suddenly, strangers will have the power to, say, impose sanctions over Avernus.

We lose most of our significance if we dilute our power. Why do the colonies need a seat here? The Low Council can already kick things up to the High Council, and generally has a whole lot of leeway to operate.

This will soon mean that nothing gets done in both low and high levels of government. Jockeying for position will poison the colonies much like what happened in the Imperium. Not to mention the exponentially higher risk of corruption. The candidate themselves need not be corrupt for everything to go down the gutter, an aide that gives misleading advice or data can be ruinous.
 
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So, is no one worried at all in how Surt's proposal will quickly dilute the Nine World's power?

Putting the right to lord over us in the hands of some random, likely corrupted colonies in the ass end of nowhere doesn't sit right with me.

Why can't things stay as they are? Or rather, give the Low Council as a whole a single seat on the High Council.

More people will mean shit will never get done, much like in the Imperium.

The larger it grows, the harder it becomes for us to swing votes in our favour.
I don't see any of our relatively controversial proposals passing in an enlarged High Council.
 
It introduces an artificial resource for which everyone will wish to compete. The colonies will jockey for position, the high council will jockey for more colonies.

It creates bloat and corruption and stagnancy.

There's no reason at all to do this besides "feels good".

[X] godofsmallthings
 
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I am for it because it will placate the colonies. They have some say so controversial things will not sorely be blamed on us.
 
[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote for Surt's proposal
[X] Bring up the problem of the Imperial Bank, specifically Article VIII subsection 2, which stipulates that the Nine Worlds must have 70% of the shares of the Trust's bank and that no other organisation can have more than 3% of the remainder noting the potential economic and equality issues this could present. Ask that a vote be held on this within the next 50 years at a minimum similar to Garp.

I am not a republican I firmly believe in representive goverment and listening to the will of the majority of the population. We need to find out what the wants and needs of the other worlds in the Trust. Also it is a good way for us to Not oppresse the colonies. We do not want to start a system that starts to oppress the worlds of the Trust.
 
Eh we have a good chance of giving Midgard obscene amounts of control with this, the colonies are their citizens after all, they'll be similar in thought due to culture if nothing else.

You know I'm surprised that no one has ever thought of just abstaining from a vote to let other parties come to us to try to swing the vote rather than just jump on whichever train seems like a f*ck you to the conservatives? No one's ever considered what sorts of boons we could get with being owed favors? After all then we wouldn't have to burn so much opinion when we try to swing unpopular votes. Ah whatever, be the good little doggy and bark twice for yes.
I don't think there's much that can be done, Surt's vote goes through unless we vote against him and abstaining from a popular vote seems to be a waste of time.

This is kind of tremendously important. Can I ask why you guys are voting for this?

One seat now will quickly grow to more seats than the founding members. And suddenly, strangers will have the power to, say, impose sanctions over Avernus.

We lose most of our significance if we dilute our power. Why do the colonies need a seat here? The Low Council can already kick things up to the High Council, and generally has a whole lot of leeway to operate.

This will soon mean that nothing gets done in both low and high levels of government. Jockeying for position will poison the colonies much like what happened in the Imperium. Not to mention the exponentially higher risk of corruption. The candidate themselves need not be corrupt for everything to go down the gutter, an aide that gives misleading advice or data can be ruinous.
Because with the current system this is going to happen anyway.

People seem to be forgetting that in 60-70 years the colonies are going to be finished and all of them will get their own seats on both the high and low council.

So I'm in favour of this partially to let the expansion go through slower so it's not so sudden.

Avernus is never going to become useless as we have a guarantee thanks to the neo astropaths.

These are also not strangers they are citizens of the Trust and the govenors are selected by the Trust for their loyalty and skill if my omake is any indicator.

This makes sure that they know that and they are appreciated.

The council system we have now will need to be revisited in the future, but now is not a good idea.

It introduces an artificial resource for which everyone will wish to compete. The colonies will jockey for position, the high council will jockey for more colonies.

It creates bloat and corruption and stagnancy.

There's no reason at all to do this besides "feels good".

[X] godofsmallthings
Feels good has nothing to do with it, Surt wouldn't propose it if it wasn't.

This really is intended to cement their loyalty to the Trust, ease the trust into its expansion period and make sure that all issues that us "safe" in the core won't think off.

I certainly can't think of problems off in Mar Sara can you?

I also think you're exaggerating. Colonies might jocky for position to an extent, but the council will either give the seat to the Midgard of the area (which is fair).

There also are not any other colony worlds in our area to get unless you want to start invading the BD.

Resource colonies maybe, but we're not nearly that desperate.

In short this isn't perfect, but it's certainly the better of two options as far as I'm concerned.
 
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I am not a republican I firmly believe in representive goverment and listening to the will of the majority of the population. We need to find out what the wants and needs of the other worlds in the Trust. Also it is a good way for us to Not oppresse the colonies. We do not want to start a system that starts to oppress the worlds of the Trust.

Please don't bring real life politics into the thread. That never ends well.
 
I am for it because it will placate the colonies. They have some say so controversial things will not sorely be blamed on us.
I do believe it's highly disingenuous that giving Midguard bonus seats will get us someone to propose those controversial things.
I am not a republican I firmly believe in representive goverment and listening to the will of the majority of the population. We need to find out what the wants and needs of the other worlds in the Trust. Also it is a good way for us to Not oppresse the colonies. We do not want to start a system that starts to oppress the worlds of the Trust.
But here's the thing: they already can.

There's already a Low Council with a tremendous amount of leeway that can always kick things up the ladder to the High Council, in the rare event it can't make a call themselves.

With this single move, we might be condemning the whole of the Trust to follow in the steps of the Imperium. Now things are fine, but what happens in a few hundred years?

The colonies aren't oppressed
. Not by any means. We fund them, we arm them, we train them. We give them the ability to essentially run themselves as long as they follow a small set of sensible rules.

We would be introducing here a means through which Chaos can royally fuck us over, in which human nature can fuck us over, in which we introduce disharmony and competition in the so far prosperous and united Nine Worlds.
 
That's why we're not. The purpose of Avernus was to create a force that could fight on demon worlds and support the Grey Knight's without being less than useless.

That we've managed.

Taking a Demon world is an impossibility.

Aside from all the Chaos daemon worlds in the area some of the Ork worlds will likely soon be in a similar situation.
And I think it's more that taking a Daemon world isn't impossible but rather stupidly impractical, requiring forces on the scale of multiple Space Marine Legions all in one place to take a single world, then you would suffer endemic corruption problems in the armies you used, and anyone you sent to actually exploit the territory.
Though that might not show up for Ork Daemon worlds.
Nonetheless I think that five to ten millennia into the quest, once Avernus is almost a Hive world as well as a death world, and so long as we keep finding ways to improve the military and the population keeps getting more deathworlder and used to warp bullexcrement, we might be able to take and hold a Daemon world.
 
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The point about not oppressing them accidentally is a good one though.

I still remember the Marquee from DS9 for instance.

Still unless we can come up with an alternative...

@TotallyNotEvil if you've got any ideas I'm all ears?
Honorary Seats. We already agree with those, make it so every some many worlds gets to elect one of those.

And set it in stone that introducing new voting members requires unanimity and for the status quo to be radically different.

It bears remembering we aren't oppressing the colonies. We don't levy crushing taxes, we don't impose overbearing policies, we in fact let them run themselves.
 
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[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote for Surt's proposal
[X] Bring up the problem of the Imperial Bank, specifically Article VIII subsection 2, which stipulates that the Nine Worlds must have 70% of the shares of the Trust's bank and that no other organisation can have more than 3% of the remainder noting the potential economic and equality issues this could present. Ask that a vote be held on this within the next 50 years at a minimum similar to Garp.

One of the reasons why I'm voting for Surt's proposal is that the only way it could significantly dilute to the point of massively weakening power of the current High Council is if we went on a conquering spree and integrated many more worlds than we currently have. According to the proposal there is one new seat added to the High Council for every 25 member world seats at the lower council of which there are 27.
 
Allowing the other worlds to have a vote is important for the well being of the Trust and to not oppress the Other worlds.

Ok let's say we add dragons nest that is another 4 votes. Eventually we are going to get to the point we're we cannot expand any more because of distance involved. Also what may be well for one the core worlds may not be for the colonies. Like when we voted for increase the tithe of troops to the Trust military. For us it was not a problem but for a colony world that be a lot of troops.
 
oppression
[uh-presh-uh n]

noun
1. the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
2. an act or instance of oppressing or subjecting to cruel or unjust impositions or restraints.

You guys seem to be equalling what today's SJWs call oppression to what real oppresion is.

Maybe it's a player syndrome of "I'd never agree to join something I wouldn't have complete ruling power over", and I get that. But it's much, much easier for nine people that live close to each other to get together and hash things out than for twenty, thirty people with widly diverging interests and agendas do the same.

How are we doing this? How are we imposing burdensome conditions, or passing cruel edits, or ruling unjustly?

We let the Low Council essentially run itself. Not having a vote in the very highest level of government is not what oppression is.

They can still comunicate their worries and kick proposals and ideas up the ladder. But that only works as long as we have a small, familiar number of High Councilmen.

Think of your own country's senate. Does it get shit done?
 
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But here's the thing: they already can.

There's already a Low Council with a tremendous amount of leeway that can always kick things up the ladder to the High Council, in the rare event it can't make a call themselves.

With this single move, we might be condemning the whole of the Trust to follow in the steps of the Imperium. Now things are fine, but what happens in a few hundred years?

The colonies aren't oppressed. Not by any means. We fund them, we arm them, we train them. We give them the ability to essentially run themselves as long as they follow a small set of sensible rules.

We would be introducing here a means through which Chaos can royally fuck us over, in which human nature can fuck us over, in which we introduce disharmony and competition in the so far prosperous and united Nine Worlds.
Ok calm down.

We do have quite a few things over the Imperium.

1. We are not so large.
2. Our centralised authority is significantly stronger and able to act.
3. A very good brain washing.

Chaos is more of an issue yes, but we're also very good at dealing with that.

Honorary Seats. We already agree with those, make it so every some many worlds gets to elect one of those.

And set it in stone that introducing new voting members requires unanimity and for the status quo to be radically different.

It bears remembering we aren't oppressing the colonies. We don't levy crushing taxes, we don't impose overbearing policies, we in fact let them run themselves.
Fine, but it's still kicking the idea upstairs for now, especially since as I must apparently reemphasise in 60-70 years ALL COLONIES GET A HIGH COUNCIL SEAT.

I am not good at this kind of stuff so.
The high council is the executive body. The larger it grows the less effective it becomes.

High Council needs to be a lean body to react swiftly to threats to the Trust as a whole. Every new member is an extra amount of influence needed to swing the votes.
I know that, but again what's the solution.

The way things are currently set up in 60-70 years all the colonies are going to have a seat on the high council, which makes it less of a mess compared to the Imperium, but still.

As an alternative

[X] Propose a compromise on Surt's proposal, where for every Subsector sized space of the Trust there is a single honorary council member. They will have the same rights as outlined in the proposal of Marshal Sigurd.

It's basically making them the Island territories in America, but with any luck it should satisfy Surt.

In addition since this is now the big issue.

[X] Ask the high council to consider how the High council is going to continue in the future. It needs to be able to react quickly to threats, remain centralised, not turn into an Imperium like oppressive group and govern without wasting all of it's time politicking. Ask the council members to consider how best to ensure that the high council continues to be an efficient organisation in the face of a large expansion in the near future.

Might as well get people thinking about it.
 
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The colonies may not be oppressed, but it should be kept in mind that they could potentially have issues with not having any representation on the High Council. Surt knows his history, and knows that this could be an issue. We aren't the Imperium - if a subsector declares independence, then we can't just casually send in the Guard and stomp their rebellion, especially with how fortified they will be.

And it isn't likely there will ever be enough worlds in the Trust to make there be more colonial High Council members than founding ones - there aren't enough worlds in the Trust's area of space to support that.

People seem to be forgetting that in 60-70 years the colonies are going to be finished and all of them will get their own seats on both the high and low council.

Colonies don't get seats on the High Council when they become full members of the Trust. If they did then Surt wouldn't be proposing this.
 
[X] Vote for Sigurd's proposal
[X] Vote for Surt's proposal

Just voting for these is fine for me.
 
Dragons NestSize: 111 Worlds

ValinorSize: 16 Worlds

The Princedom of TuroqSize: 55 Worlds

Tugozak's DomainSize: 51 Worlds

The Princedom of DemagoyeSize: 30 Worlds

Assorted RemnantsSize: 38 Worlds

Assorted OrksSize: 54 Worlds

Assorted ChaosSize: 39 Worlds
421 words if you add in our own 27 Low Council fellows.

A potential of almost seventeen other High Council seats.
 
Colonies don't get seats on the High Council when they become full members of the Trust. If they did then Surt wouldn't be proposing this.
Wait they don't.

In that case why are we arguing this?

Where's that? Honest question.
In all honesty I thought they got a high council seat after they were judged to have finished colonisation rather than just a low council seat.

In this case then Surt's proposal is completely fine, unless we go on a massive conquering spree again, which I am very much against then adding a single seat for every 25 worlds is rather too few really.

421 words if you add in our own 27 Low Council fellows.

A potential of almost seventeen other High Council seats.
You do realise it takes over a year to reach the areas of the Dragon's Nest which are closest too us at the moment.

We cannot govern that far and remain what we are and I'm hopeful the rest of the Trust knows it.

Besides why would we want to fight the Dragon's nest, Valinor maybe, but I'm happy to leave that to the DN.
 
@TotallyNotEvil i am sorry but we are not going to agree.

Having a vote in the High council is important not just for the representing them but gives them a say in what happens at the highest levels of the Trust. Which is important for us to not oppress them or create a system where oppression happens and for them to have a say in what happens. We need to build a empire that can not only survive what is too come but thrives and faces the challenges internally and externally. Expecting on the current members of the Trust to not oppress them or to act on what needs to be done is not a good idea in my opinion.

Also the colony worlds will most likely be more progressive which would allow our political party to expand and have more control. While the conservatives have compelling arguments we need to make changes to better survive. I cannot picture the current government in Vanahiem wanting to create more shipyards in other systems when they are secured. He seems to want to be in power and keep Vanahiem above other worlds.
 
Just voting for these is fine for me.
Why? Why would we dilute the power of the High Council when that very concentrated decision-making ability is one of our greatest strenghts? Why would we artificially create a new resource for everyone to compete for, a resource that can be easily gained through the misfortune of one's fellows, without a most pressing need?

The colonies run themselves, our laws and restrictions might as well be nonexistent considering they are just common sense, the Low Council gets to decide everything but the highest level of policy, they can propose things to the High Council easily enough.

Why would we introduce exponentially increasing points of failure?
 
the only way it could significantly dilute to the point of massively weakening power of the current High Council is if we went on a conquering spree and integrated many more worlds than we currently have.
That is not out of the question for the future. No one knows exactly what the future brings, and this is a long term decision.

There are good things to be said for decentralization, but this is the Grim Far Future, and you should generally never run a war by committee. We already have 13 High Council Votes.
The Emperor charged us to survive, not to be civic minded and fair.
[X] Vote against Surt's proposal
-[X] Convince Svartalfheim to vote against this proposal
 
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