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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

  • Yes

    Votes: 593 80.4%

  • No

    Votes: 145 19.6%
  • Total voters
    738
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Enjou said:
Current tally. It's near unanimous, @durin, so you might as well go ahead and call the vote.

They would need to produce enough genetic material to produce glands for more than one Astartes. If they only produced enough for one each, regrowing a Chapter would be pretty much impossible given that implantation can fail and kill the implantee, trainees die during the training period for other reasons, not every second progenoid is recovered, etc. You'd very likely end up with less than one to one growth, meaning recovering a Chapter from heavy losses would be nearly impossible. Add onto that the fact that Chapters need to send a tithe of their gene-seed to the Mechanicus and you'd see the problem get worse.
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Yet according to the fluff, that is exactly the case. Chapters are repeatedly mentioned to have taken heavy casualties that cause them to leave the front lines for decades if not centuries at a time to rebuild their numbers.

Everything I have seen about the progenoid glands say the same thing: you get 2 from every space marine, and you can only taker one of those out while he is still alive.

It really is that inefficient and risky a process.

Hell, I played Chapter Master, a game based on the fluff, as the Salamanders. They only had 20 glands in the bank, and a chapter population of 772 marines. I was looking at 8.5 years until I could train 20 neophytes up to scout status and during that time I was expected to keep a sector secure with no reinforcements barring any auxiliaries I could beg/borrow/steal from the other imperial factions.

But wait, I couldn't train 20 neophytes because I had to donate 5% of my stocked glands to Adeptus Mechanicus every year.

The game was turn-based and each turn is one month. So imagine being able to get a recruit 100 turns after you start the training period.

All I'm saying is, Space Marine chapters only seem to bounce back from major losses because the scope of 40k covers/jumps between centuries at a time.

TLDR: Space Marines are not really cost-efficient or time-efficient for the Imperial Trust
 
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one thing I want to mention
Space marines are an effective force worth the time and resources put into them, yes it does not make sense but this is 40k, rule of cool is a law of psychics here
 
Honestly, my biggest concern is that if we *did* get SMs, they'd almost certainly want to recruit from Avernus/possibly base themselves out of or in orbit of Avernus as well. Geneseed isn't stable at the best of times, but on a Warp-Touched World where there's evidence some Planet-Mind is slowly mutating the inhabitants? That sounds like an accident waiting to happen to be honest.

If we did get SMs, they'd be awesome special forces with our tech and recruitment population, and that would certainly be great. I think the risks of rebellion or heresy are being somewhat overblown as well. I mean, we can fairly easily outfit a thousand men with Power weapons and PA that puts the Space Marine's gear to shame. I'm sure we can supply ~3 to 5k without a noticeable strain on our upkeep, and we can devise some structure that allows for a relatively centralized command alongside redundancy. Maybe keep a chapter system where the chapter masters elect a Commander-In-Chief?

They're an investment that we'd have to nurture and to take some time with, but to say they're no longer relevant is patently absurd. If anything, the immense quality of our ground and air forces means the SMs can focus on where they excel the most- elite heavy infantry/special forces without as much emphasis on their armour and air assets. This lets them better leverage their limited manpower, and at the same time limits their capacity to wage an independent war.
 
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Shard said:
Learning: 8-14 (Depending on Education/Job)
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durin said that the average Avernite has an equivalent level of education as a bachelor's degree. 8 is too small.

Wheel of time said:
By the time that we are done colonizing Avernus I expect Avernites to have evolved into one of most monstrous and Insanely deadly abhumans ever.
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Catachans haven't. We'll probably just end up like them, only more deadly.

Wheel of time said:
But for now they are Grimdark batman:grin:
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I'd say that they're noblebright Batman, considering how Batman is already grim and dark while Avernites are altogether rather cheery people.

Praetor98 said:
Fuck that, what if they make the New Devourer?!
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NO. There will never be a New Devourer. The very idea is stupid and durin said that he's not doing it. I really wish people would stop mentioning that moronic thing and acting like it could ever be a possibility here.

Alex pears said:
Imagine what an Avernite Space Marine could do.
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Custodes level or Thunder Warrior level? What's your guess?
 
DragonParadox said:
Agreed. Space Marines are a plague upon the galaxy, horrific resource sinks with a tendency to flip to Chaos and leave the planetary authorities holding the bag... but Grey Knights, which we already have, are a great way to keep powerfull psykers safe and empower then. I really want their geneseed and regular geenseed would be a great stepping stone to getting it.
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Yeah, the superior geneseed the Grey Knights have does, in my view, give them a special pass from the purge that must be done to cleanse the Space Marine filth from the Galaxy.

durin said:
rule of cool is a law of psychics here
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The Imperial Trust will be cooler without Space Marines, surely?

fasquardon
 
Speaking of SMs, I take it the Blood Dragons either aren't a thing or just didn't make it to us? /sadness
 
Valerian said:
Everything I have seen about the progenoid glands say the same thing: you get 2 from every space marine, and you can only taker one of those out while he is still alive.
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While I don't really care to argue a point about the fluff that I'm not sure is all that fleshed out (regarding how many marines you could potentially make from a single progenoid's worth of gene-seed) I will point out that there's nothing actually stopping the harvesting of the second progenoid gland while the Astartes is alive - they just don't generally do that, supposedly due to a belief that leaving it in will result in stronger gene-seed due to gaining strength from an experienced Astartes, or something along those lines.


tryrar said:
Speaking of SMs, I take it the Blood Dragons either aren't a thing or just didn't make it to us? /sadness
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They may still make it, or they may be a local power outside of the Trust once the Warp Storms end. Barely any in game time has passed for it to happen, so be patient.
 
Enjou said:
While I don't really care to argue a point about the fluff that I'm not sure is all that fleshed out (regarding how many marines you could potentially make from a single progenoid's worth of gene-seed) I will point out that there's nothing actually stopping the harvesting of the second progenoid gland while the Astartes is alive - they just don't generally do that, supposedly due to a belief that leaving it in will result in stronger gene-seed due to gaining strength from an experienced Astartes, or something along those lines.




They may still make it, or they may be a local power outside of the Trust once the Warp Storms end. Barely any in game time has passed for it to happen, so be patient.
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From the warhammer wiki (though if anyone has a more reliable source I would appreciate it):

The gene-seed of a Space Marine Chapter is passed down through the Progenoid Glands, (the 18th implant) that collects and stores genetic data. There are two of these glands, one in the throat, and one in the reinforced chest cavity. This is done mainly for safe keeping, but also it provides an opportunity for a Chapter that has suffered massive losses to regenerate itself over a long period of time. The germ cells within a Progenoid Gland mature over a period of five to ten years, and can be harvested at any time after reaching maturity, up until a short time after death...........




"In the event of a Chapter suffering disastrous losses of its gene-seed, it may become necessary for the Apothecaries of the Chapter to use test-slaves to breed enough new gene-seed to bring the Chapter rapidly back up to full strength. These test-slaves are always human males, usually the condemned Imperial criminals that would otherwise be turned into Servitors. They are kept inside an artificial environment within the Chapter's fortress-monastery alive and partly conscious, but unable to leave their transparent Plasteel gestation chamber for the full 5-10 year maturation process. Needless to say, this solution is far from ideal, and is regarded as a last option to keep a Chapter alive. This method is also used by the Adeptus Mechanicus to create the large amount of gene-seed necessary for the Founding of a new Chapter since no existing Chapter could spare 1,000 copies of its gene-seed. However, as each Chapter is required to tithe 5% of its gene-seed away to Mars to be checked for purity, it is possible that the Imperium could build up a collection of gene-seed, and Found new Chapters that way en masse."

Bolding is mine.

So, there appears to be two additional ways for chapters to rebuild:
1. Implant geneseed into comatose males and farm them for the 2 progenoid glands that grow after 10 years.
2. Beg the Adeptus Mechanicus for help and hope they will give you some of the glands that your chapter has been donating them for millenia.


Andres110 said:
Compare the average guardsman:
to the average Space Marine:
Space Marines are way cooler than mere guardsmen.
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Image broken :p (though not in edit mode or in my copy of your post, strange)
 
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Valerian said:
From the warhammer wiki (though if anyone has a more reliable source I would appreciate it):
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Warhammer wiki is crap - people insert things unsupported by any source all the time. Lots of fanon in there.

If it says something in the Warhammer Wiki but doesn't say it in Lexicanum you should assume it's probably something that was made up, especially if it doesn't have a fluff source attributed to it.

Reproduction of gene-seed is possible through the Progenoid glands - an implant whose sole purpose is the replication of gene-seed. A mature gland can be removed by an Apothecary and new organs artificially cultured from them. This is the only source for new implants, so a Chapter depends on its Marines to create other Marines. In the battle-mysticism of the Astartes, the gene-seed is regarded spiritually - though a fallen Marine's body is dead, he lives on as gene-seed which returns to the Chapter.
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On progenoids...

Phase 18: There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck and the other within the chest cavity. These glands are vitally important and represent the future of the Chapter, as the only way new gene-seed can be produced is by reproducing it within the bodies of the Marines themselves. This is the implant's only purpose. The glands absorb genetic material from the other implanted organs. When they have matured each gland will have developed a single gene-seed corresponding to each of the zygotes which have been implanted into the Marine.

These take time (5 years in the first case, 10 in the latter) to mature into gene-seed. The gene-seed can then be extracted and used to create more Space Marines.
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The details on how you get the gene-seed from a progenoid to grow into organs isn't really detailed. It could be that it gives you only one organ, or it could be that it gives you enough to clone a batch of organs. IMO it's more realistic for sustainability purposes to get a few sets of organs from one set of gene-seed since you're going to have regular implantation failures, training deaths, etc., but the authors of 40k aren't always good with details on things and making it realistic, so... *shrug*
 
Karugus said:
Honestly, my biggest concern is that if we *did* get SMs, they'd almost certainly want to recruit from Avernus/possibly base themselves out of or in orbit of Avernus as well. Geneseed isn't stable at the best of times, but on a Warp-Touched World where there's evidence some Planet-Mind is slowly mutating the inhabitants? That sounds like an accident waiting to happen to be honest.

If we did get SMs, they'd be awesome special forces with our tech and recruitment population, and that would certainly be great. I think the risks of rebellion or heresy are being somewhat overblown as well. I mean, we can fairly easily outfit a thousand men with Power weapons and PA that puts the Space Marine's gear to shame. I'm sure we can supply ~3 to 5k without a noticeable strain on our upkeep, and we can devise some structure that allows for a relatively centralized command alongside redundancy. Maybe keep a chapter system where the chapter masters elect a Commander-In-Chief?

They're an investment that we'd have to nurture and to take some time with, but to say they're no longer relevant is patently absurd. If anything, the immense quality of our ground and air forces means the SMs can focus on where they excel the most- elite heavy infantry/special forces without as much emphasis on their armour and air assets. This lets them better leverage their limited manpower, and at the same time limits their capacity to wage an independent war.
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That could actually work.
 
I was watching the Ork cinematic from Battlefeet Gothic and there is a part where a gretchin walks over a console and accidentaly presses the engine/boost button and sends the ship ramming into an imperial ship



could someone do an omake about that happening on one of the space hulks?

a gretchin stepping on the Big Red Button sending the hulk crashing into the ork fleet/another Hulk
 
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Shard said:
How well do Space Marines fare in civilian life, anyhow?
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Um, usually bad. Space Marines are made to fight and die. They can be more like the salamanders and fit in with a populace but theyre the only ones that make civilian casualties a priority in life.

Avernite space marines if similarly indoctrinated could also care about civilians.

I imagine if our people tolerate quortoks and other humans than they can tolerate a killing machine helping out with the wild yardwork. Afterall, they never turn down help or refuse to not help those in need. Or not go above the call of duty.
 
I wabt the space marines but those pictures are a bad relation.

The guard who tries hard and a blood angel who poses in front of light? Of course the marine will win the "who looks better contest.".

Btw we still havent gotten in contact with that fortress world with space marines guys. Which means we can stilm get them..if we can convince them to migrate.

I mean who woudnt want to live in a dearh world? Thats like free gym membership if you live through it all. :)
 
I know that the conversation has passed, but just putting in my two cents:

The command and/or control of a Space Marine chapter or its gene-seed is something that we should never have. It wod be an absurd level of lore-breaking bullshit that not even I am willing to tolerate. In the Imperium, the only people who the Space Marines couldn't tell to fuck right off where the High Lords of Terra who literally spoke with the Emperor's authority! Even the Inquisition didn't have the authority to solely command Space Marines, as seen in the aftermath of Angron trying to conquer Arrmagedon. Simply put we are never going to get command or controll of a Space Marine Chapter or it's Gene-seed. And if we some how do (barring a VERY good reason) I'd probably just drop the quest because at that point it might was well not be labeled "Warhammer".
 
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Canadian Patriot said:
I know that the conversation has passed, but just putting in my two cents:

The command and/or control of a Space Marine chapter or its gene-seed is something that we should never have. It wod be an absurd level of lore-breaking bullshit that not even I am willing to tolerate. In the Imperium, the only people who the Space Marines couldn't tell to fuck right off where the High Lords of Terra who literally spoke with the Emperor's authority! Even the Inquisition didn't have the authority to solely command Space Marines, as seen in the aftermath of Angron trying to conquer Arrmagedon. Simply put we are never going to get command or controll of a Space Marine Chapter or it's Gene-seed. And if we some how due (barring a VERY good reason) I'd probably just drop the quest because at that point it might was well not be labeled "Warhammer".
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This not the Imperium it is the trust and if they do not work with us we are perfectly capable of fucking obliterateting them. They play by our new rules or they die. And if we can we take thier geneseed from thier corpses and make new space Marines loyal to the imperial trust.
 
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