The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

[Enjou]

How would they have achieved the levels needed for full independence without the population? They don't even have a colonial government until they become a full colony.

It'd be like jumping an unorganized territory to statehood without ever forming a territorial government first.

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The proposal I include as well as Aelfric's proposal have local governments included. But in the case of my own proposal they are jumped to the phase of full colonization that

I see this as unnecessary. Self interest would keep the colonizer spending money on their colonies.

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You are presuming that rational self-interest will continue unabated in the universe of Warhammer 40k. Frankly I don't think that's a good presumption. Sure, the Nine Worlds as they're ruled now are pretty competent, but we can't presume that there won't be a few corrupt governors in later colonies who won't do stupid shit.

Frankly, I find it unlikely that resource colonies will have long term residents. It's more likely that young men will go there to get higher paying jobs, save their money, and then travel back to their home worlds. That's been the traditional model for resource extraction - the gold fields, the oil fields, etc.

I'd also point out that making the resource colony a direct extension of the home world's government will greatly facilitate this.

The full colony cutoff is for the exceptional situation where a resource colony has for whatever reason grown out of being just a resource colony. That isn't likely to happen. If it were, you'd just found it as a full colony in the first place.

That's the whole point of resource colonies. They are a way to exploit the resources of a system that is not viable as a full colony.

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I think using gold and oil fields as a model here is a mistake, because they don't scale to an interplanetary model where you're going to have millions of workers of both sexes. There will be people who are having families in these colonies, and children who will be growing up there and eventually working there. Look at Niflheim and Muspelheim before the collapse of the Imperium - that's the closer to the model resource colonies are likely to operate on. This seems to be more along the lines that the High Councilors are thinking, given their proposals. Resource colonies will be smaller and on less desirable worlds, but it's rather likely that many of them will grow to the point that they get half a billion people at some point - see how Niflheim now has 887 million people now, up from a significantly smaller number.

 

[Dark as Silver]

You are presuming that rational self-interest will continue unabated in the universe of Warhammer 40k. Frankly I don't think that's a good presumption. Sure, the Nine Worlds as they're ruled now are pretty competent, but we can't presume that there won't be a few corrupt governors in later colonies who won't do stupid shit.

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Wasn't Olafs predecessor incompetent and corrupt? There's already a precedent for this in that case.

 

[Enjou]

Wasn't Olafs predecessor incompetent and corrupt? There's already a precedent for this in that case.

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King Zaren of Alfheim's predecessor. Our local Inquisitor had him assassinated.

 

[Artemis1992]

Wasn't Olafs predecessor incompetent and corrupt? There's already a precedent for this in that case.

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But we didn't do anything against that. Says Clovis-Ultan...

 

[Portec]

Thanks Elder Haman.

@durin
I have tried to guess at the cost of DAoT ships.
1. Is it correct that the upkeep cost of ships are uniform (exept defence ships unable to warp) in that they need 2% of their build cost as upkeep?
2. Comparing the cost of the revealed DAoT ships in the naval sheet I came to the following results and ask if they are correct:
2a. DAoT ships need 150% (50% more) Thrones to be build as a baseline.
2b. DAoT ships need 300% (200% more) Material to be build as a baseline.
2c. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Promethium to be build as a baseline.
2d. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Advanced Material to be build as a baseline.
2e. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Exotic Material to be build as a baseline.

Given how expensive the ships are to build and maintain I start to wonder if they will be able to worthwhile. The only thing we save compared to building two Imperial ones are crew (because we need to staff two ships and the automation that allow DAoT ships to need less crew can be used on Imperial ones as well) and Thrones (25% reduction).
What we gain is freaking out our oponents as they will not expect our ships to be so good.

What we loose is deterent (our fleet will only be half the size and easier to take) and adding a heavy strain on our Material production (needing more thrones to turn more metal into more Material so the reduced cost of Thrones is ofset by this).

So yeah. I will look now into a fleet plan out of Imperial and fewer core DAoT ships as pure DAoT is simply to expensive...

 

[Enjou]

Thanks Elder Haman.

@durin
I have tried to guess at the cost of DAoT ships.
1. Is it correct that the upkeep cost of ships are uniform (exept defence ships unable to warp) in that they need 2% of their build cost as upkeep?
2. Comparing the cost of the revealed DAoT ships in the naval sheet I came to the following results and ask if they are correct:
2a. DAoT ships need 150% (50% more) Thrones to be build as a baseline.
2b. DAoT ships need 300% (200% more) Material to be build as a baseline.
2c. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Promethium to be build as a baseline.
2d. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Advanced Material to be build as a baseline.
2e. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Exotic Material to be build as a baseline.

Given how expensive the ships are to build and maintain I start to wonder if they will be able to worthwhile. The only thing we save compared to building two Imperial ones are crew (because we need to staff two ships and the automation that allow DAoT ships to need less crew can be used on Imperial ones as well) and Thrones (25% reduction).
What we gain is freaking out our oponents as they will not expect our ships to be so good.

What we loose is deterent (our fleet will only be half the size and easier to take) and adding a heavy strain on our Material production (needing more thrones to turn more metal into more Material so the reduced cost of Thrones is ofset by this).

So yeah. I will look now into a fleet plan out of Imperial and fewer core DAoT ships as pure DAoT is simply to expensive...

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Keep in mind that Imperial ships takes just as long to build as DAoT ships, so we also gain in ship building time. It takes twice as long to build two Imperial ships compared to building a DAoT one, and repairing a DAoT one takes even less time and we've got a large number of wrecks to repair.

Also, unlike pretty much every other human power on the map, we have significantly greater production of resources relative to our size/population because of all the STCs we have. That means that the fleet size our polity can maintain is larger than it otherwise would be for a normal human polity, even when you take into account the increased maintenance costs of DAoT ships. Thus we don't actually lose a fleet size deterrent.

 

[Elder Haman]

You are presuming that rational self-interest will continue unabated in the universe of Warhammer 40k. Frankly I don't think that's a good presumption. Sure, the Nine Worlds as they're ruled now are pretty competent, but we can't presume that there won't be a few corrupt governors in later colonies who won't do stupid shit.

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I guess adding a 1/5th spent on the colony isn't too bad.

I think using gold and oil fields as a model here is a mistake, because they don't scale to an interplanetary model where you're going to have millions of workers of both sexes. There will be people who are having families in these colonies, and children who will be growing up there and eventually working there.

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It depends on how we set them up.

If we set them up as extensions of the colonizer government then it's more likely to be the gold fields model. Since there will be no government boundaries.

Sure there will be some that take their families along, and that may create the nucleus for a more stable colony, but it's more likely that they won't. That's why there are ghost towns all over the American west.

I just think that we will be making an error in assuming that resource colonies are going to develop into independent systems. That's the whole point in having different types of colonies. Why are we bothering with resource colonies anyways if they are all going to become independent systems? Just make them full colonies from the beginning.

Look at Niflheim and Muspelheim before the collapse of the Imperium - that's the closer to the model resource colonies are likely to operate on. This seems to be more along the lines that the High Councilors are thinking, given their proposals.

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That seems to be the line Alferic and Surt are thinking, but not Oalf, Sigurd, etc. I'm saying I agree more with Oalf in this instance. I agreed with Surt on the full colonies, but with Olaf on the Resource Colonies.

Also, Muspelheim and Nilfheim are not good models. First, they are both unique and not normal resource colonies, not even in the old Imperium. Second, under the Imperium they were not independent, and so were linked to a network of trade that is no longer viable without the Imperium. Third, that whole Imperium economic system was irrational and inefficient and we ought not look to it for too much guidance.

I expect the vast majority of resource colonies to operate more like our moons bases. A place to mine tons of resources, but not an independent polity.

We're making rules to handle the exceptions, not the the norm.

 

[Jexx]

Your ships are almost all slow until you get to the Light Cruisers. Your fleet will be flanked. Assuming equal numbers, against a generalist fleet fighting with a normal line you will win, but with heavy losses. Against a long range fast fleet (like Vanaheim) your fleet will be massacred.

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I'd rate your post "Insightful", except you are still making that assumption - that we'll ever operate as solo fleet instead of part of Trust task force barring minor pirate smacking, serving as extra orbital defense stations in Avernus system and (hopefully rare) gigantic fuck-up by us and Trust admiralty.

In the scenario you described, it wouldn't be us who respond to flankers but rather Vanaheim equally fast and long-ranged fleet, or Muspelheim's ninja squads de-cloaking at their sterns. Or at least their Trust Navy equivalents.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

I have a proposition for our AM and EM problems.

Britton has an action for working the Forge, which greatly increases the production of AM or EM.

Why don't we have him do that for 1-2 maybe more years and build up a reserve.

Who knows on a Crit we even get a permanent bonus, which could go a long way to helping us out.

 

[Elder Haman]

I'd rate your post "Insightful", except you are still making that assumption - that we'll ever operate as solo fleet instead of part of Trust task force barring minor pirate smacking, serving as extra orbital defense stations in Avernus system and (hopefully rare) gigantic fuck-up by us and Trust admiralty.

In the scenario you described, it wouldn't be us who respond to flankers but rather Vanaheim equally fast and long-ranged fleet, or Muspelheim's ninja squads de-cloaking at their sterns. Or at least their Trust Navy equivalents.

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I would prefer a small fleet capable of autonomous operation if necessary that can then join up with a larger joint fleet to handle larger foes.

That would be far better than a fleet that is a useless waste of resources and is easily destroyed when separated from the rest of the Imperial Trust.

EDIT: Also, maybe you could actually say what you are proposing because so far all you have done is complain without offering an alternative.

 

[Enjou]

It depends on how we set them up.

If we set them up as extensions of the colonizer government then it's more likely to be the gold fields model. Since there will be no government boundaries.

Sure there will be some that take their families along, and that may create the nucleus for a more stable colony, but it's more likely that they won't. That's why there are ghost towns all over the American west.

I just think that we will be making an error in assuming that resource colonies are going to develop into independent systems. That's the whole point in having different types of colonies. Why are we bothering with resource colonies anyways if they are all going to become independent systems? Just make them full colonies from the beginning.

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Ghost towns in the American west aren't an apt comparison to what's likely to be set up. Nobody is going to found a resource colony that would only produce resources for a few decades - it's not worth the investment of resources for the return. Bare minimum a resource colony would be founded with the intention of producing the resource for many centuries, but more likely for millennia.

Yes, there will be resource colonies that stay too small to warrant independence, but I expect far more eventually will grow to that point than you're expecting. One of the biggest differences will be the level of investment placed in building up a resource colony vs. a full colony. People will found full colonies on worlds that are desirable to do so, where it's worth investing in a dozen or so initial cities and sending hundreds of millions of people immediately rather than only tens of millions to inhabit one or two cities, so it would take far longer to reach a high enough level of population to justify independence.

But perhaps @durin should chime in and tell us what we should expect here, because I think we're both operating under very different expectations.

I expect the vast majority of resource colonies to operate more like our moons bases. A place to mine tons of resources, but not an independent polity.

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Again, not a good example to prove your point. Our lunar cities are permanent settlements that we expect to be there in perpetuity. The AdMech Menials living there are going to largely be born there and will likely die there. Further, we expect to expand those to be hives that can contain billions of people, which would warrant independence under any of the plans posted, but they also aren't separated by light-years.

 

[Elder Haman]

Ghost towns in the American west aren't an apt comparison to what's likely to be set up. Nobody is going to found a resource colony that would only produce resources for a few decades - it's not worth the investment of resources for the return. Bare minimum a resource colony would be founded with the intention of producing the resource for many centuries, but more likely for millennia.

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Sure... and then what?

Resource colonies will not have habitable atmosphere, they won't have any reason for a permanent presence other than for resources. So why are you trying to force them into the same role as full colonies?

If you want a system to become independent eventually, then just establish a full colony from the get go.

Why are we wasting time differentiating between full colonies and resource colonies if you aren't going to treat them differently?

 

[Enjou]

Sure... and then what?

Resource colonies will not have habitable atmosphere, they won't have any reason for a permanent presence other than for resources. So why are you trying to force them into the same role as full colonies?

If you want a system to become independent eventually, then just establish a full colony from the get go.

Why are we wasting time differentiating between full colonies and resource colonies if you aren't going to treat them differently?

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Full colonies are much more expensive investments, and will reach very high levels of population much, much quicker than resource colonies. They will likely start with over five hundred million people - remember that Avernus initially settled with a full billion, and even after the first decade of initial mass deaths it had six hundred million. The difference in number of people seems to be the major dividing line here in regards to what the members of the High Council think make it acceptable to exploit a colony to the degree a resource colony can be exploited.

A full colony will likely have at least a dozen or so cities, possibly even a hive, at the start. That's a large investment, but should ultimately be able to achieve near self-sufficiency well before independence is achieved. But worlds can't afford to invest in large numbers of these at a given time, and many worlds wouldn't be able to afford to invest in any.

A resource colony on the other hand would be a much smaller initial investment. It'll be one to three cities, Major at the largest. Initial population will be in the tens of millions, and fast population growth wouldn't be encouraged with fertility drugs. They'll grow, but it'd be much slower, and there'll always probably be one resource at least that they have to import (like Niflheim has to import metal), but if the local resource is plentiful enough they will eventually expand their cities to increase output once they're able. It might take centuries, but it'd happen. Some worlds won't reach that point, but as I said I think more will than you're thinking. Due to the smaller investment, worlds can maintain more of these, and the smaller worlds can more easily found them, and they can be exploited to a greater degree until the population ups to a certain level.

Like I said though, we should wait for durin to come and clarify on this, because I don't think we're going to convince one another without some in universe context.

 

[Reynal]

Couple ideas--we could offer to waive some of the in-system void defense requirement if the parent government has sufficient warp-capable naval assets to prevent them from becoming a liability. For ground defenses, we might want to take the Muspelheim level, but give them the ability to have a lower level if they meet certain other requirements, like a significant militia, or a larger military presence than strictly required. We should probably tie the military size to the higher of two numbers--1% of population or 1 regiment per X thrones produced locally (at Trust-average prices for resources). Maybe also offer to waive the exact military size requirement if members are trained and/or equipped to a substantially higher level than usual. Basically, emphasize that we want to ensure that these colonies will not be defensive liabilities to the Trust, but that parent states are allowed significant flexibility in how they meet that requirement.

In terms of numbers/independence, I think a relatively simple system is better. Rather than saying that X% of production must be used locally, I think we might want to consider requiring the parent government to ensure that either the standard of living in the resource colony is comparable to their home world or that they are reasonably compensated if it is not. Maybe put together a small council on the colony of locals that can bring issues up to their parent government and have the right to petition the high council too. Finally, how about putting it that when a resource colony grows to over 400 million it becomes a full colony with a founding date when the local population hit 400 million. They should follow the rules for full colonies at that point, with the exception that the local government shall receive the right to petition the high council for independence after 10 years. I also like the Inquisitional audit of resource colonies, just to keep people honest.

Basically, the idea here is first, to ensure that standards of living are reasonable on resource colonies. If for some reason that isn't possible, they should get paid appropriately. Think workers on oil rigs in that case--no matter how you try to pretty it up, work there is going to be shitty, but they get paid quite well for it so it balances out. Giving them the right to petition for independence early should paper over the odd cases without making the system more complicated.

 

[Elder Haman]

Like I said though, we should wait for durin to come and clarify on this, because I don't think we're going to convince one another without some in universe context.

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Agreed.

I think the difference between us is that I see resource colonies and full colonies as a difference in kind, and you see it as merely a difference in degree.

Finally, how about putting it that when a resource colony grows to over 400 million it becomes a full colony with a founding date when the local population hit 400 million.

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That's... pretty much what everyone is proposing. Even Oalf has that in his proposal without any prompting.

They should follow the rules for full colonies at that point, with the exception that the local government shall receive the right to petition the high council for independence after 10 years.

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Not sure why this is needed. Don't all full colonies have the right to petition the High Council?

Unless you mean that they should automatically get independence at 10 years the way virgin full colonies get independence at 100 years?

If so I must oppose. I don't see how we can assume that resource colonies that grew into full colony size will auto-magically have the extra resources to be independent in 10 years instead of 100.

 

[Durin]

@durin - I've come up with alternatives to the independence proposal and the numbers proposal. Please let me know what level of support each would get.

Unified Independence Proposal

- Under 200 million population, the resource colony is an extension of the colonizer, though at least one fifth of the resource colony's income must be spent on the colony.
- At 200 million population and above a local government with at least a third of the members born on the colony, or part of the initial colonisation team, should be formed. This local government may petition the High Council. At least one quarter of the resource colony's income must be spent on the colony at this point.
- At 500 million population and above the colony will achieve full colony status or independence based on the level of development of the criteria of full colonies. For example, a forty year old colony that meets the criteria of a fifty year old colony will be recognized as a forty year old full colony, while a sixty year old colony that meets the criteria of a fifty year old colony will be recognized as a fifty year old colony. A resource colony that is 100 years old or greater and meets the full criteria of a 100 year old colony would attain independence. This prevents a colonizer from disguising a full colony as a resource colony to extend their control over it artificially, but ensures they still receive the minimum benefits of a full colony should the resource colony develop faster than projected.
- Regardless of population level, a colony of fifty years of age will be able to petition the High Council.
- A resource colony meeting certain criteria determined by the High Council (such as a skilled and unique military or sufficiently large economy) may petition for full colony status or independence based on their level of development.
- Resource colonies will be subject to an official Inquisitorial audit once every fifty year period, at a random time during that period, to ensure that the colonizer is not oppressing the colonists. The Inquisition may choose to notify the High Council of any issues the colonizer refuses to resolve.

Compromise Numbers Proposal

A planet have as many resource colonies as it wants so long as it is within ten light years of a member of the low council, but the Security Council may impose a higher level of defences on additional colonies as they determine is necessary based on the Imperial Trust's security situation. This would ensure that resource colonies do not expand the area that the fleet has to protect by too much while giving a fair degree of freedom to the Governors in the locations of the resource colonies.

This proposal also agrees that the nearest Low Council member effectively owns an uninhabited system, so permission would be needed for someone else to establish a colony there.

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the independence proposal would have the support of Champion Surt, Governor Garp, Governor-General Aelfric, King Zaren and First Artisan Granalf
you would need to convince one of the three people abstaining (Inquisitor Varquez, Governor Ulric and Admiral Freyr) in order to have a majority

the numbers proposal would have the support of Lord Marshal Sigurd, Governor Olaf, Governor-General Aelfric, Governor Garp, King Zaren and Admiral Freyr
and therefore have a majority

 

[Durin]

@durin
1. Is some of this useable? I know that it would not have this form but the idea itself?


@durin
2. I did some thread crawling and collected what we know about DAoT ships, fleet structure and range of ship weapons. Where does the Ragnarok Cannon fit into the range?
3. Normal Lances and Weapon Batteries have 'normal' range and don't belong into the range table? (Everything with 'short' will have even less range as the name implies)

Spoiler: Infopost

Spoiler: Ranking of Range for Ship Weapons

0: Attack craft
1: Torpedos
2: Superlances
3: Spinal Grav-Accelerator
4: Nova Cannon
5: Long Range Laser Batteries (3 light seconds - that's a little more than twice the distance to the Moon)
6: Long Range Lances
7: Long Range Plasma Batteries
8: Long Range Macro Cannons

Spoiler: DAoT Ships

Spoiler: Balancing a Fleet

Command Battleships per Dreadnaught: Unknown
Battleships per Command Battleships: 3-4
Cruiser per Battleships: 8-12
Escort per Cruiser: 4-5

Light Cruiser act as 0.5 Cruisers
Battle and Heavy Cruisers act as 2 Cruisers
Grand Cruisers act as 0.5 Battleships

Spoiler: Escorts

Squire Class Frigate -This is the generalist escort frigate.
Page Class Frigate- This is the hunter frigate equipped with a Lance instead of Weapon Batteries.
Privateer Class Raider- This is the fast raider frigate equipped with Torpedos primarily.
Shadow Class Destroyer- This is the stealth destroyer.
Soldier Class Destroyer- This is the slow, heavily armored escort destroyer.
Legionnaire Class Destroyer- This is hunter destroyer equipped to destroy other escorts.
Descent Class Destroyer- A small destroyer capable of atmospheric flight. It needs to slow to a crawl to get under two kilometres above sea level but is more then capable of levelling armies with accurate macrocannon fire from a few kilometres above ground level.

Spoiler: Light Cruisers

Youxia Class Escort Cruiser -This is a Eescort Cruiser equipped with heavy point defences.
Monk Class Escort Carrier- This is a Escort Carrier eauipped with heavy point defences and attack craft bays instead of most other weapons.
Buccaneer Class Light Cruiser- This is a fast Light Cruiser for skrimishing, raiding and scouting.
Adherent Class Light Carrier- This is a fast Light Carrier and attack craft bays instead of most other weapons.
Fog Class Light Cruiser- This is stealth based Light Cruiser equipped with attack craft bays and torpedoes.

Spoiler: Defence Cruiser

Defence Cruiser are not warp cable.
Castle Class Defence Cruiser- The generalist cruiser.
Bastion Class Defence Cruiser- The lance based defence cruiser.
Fortress Class Defence Cruiser- The torpedo based defence cruiser.
Cathedral Class Defence Carrier- The defence carrier.
Snare Class Defence Cruiser- The haywire equipped defence cruiser.
Castra Class Defence Cruiser- The short ranged defence cruiser.

Spoiler: Cruisers

Knight Class Cruiser -This is the heavily armoured cruiser armed with long range batteries and two lances.
Cataphract Cruiser- This is the lance equipped armoured cruiser carries in total eight lances.
Kshatriya Cruiser- This is the short ranged armoured cruiser that retains two lances.
Samurai Cruiser- This is the torpedo based armoured cruiser that retains two lances.

Corsair Class Cruiser- This is the fast cruiser equipped with long range batteries and one long range lance.
Poacher Class Cruiser- This is the lance equipped fast cruiser that has in total six long range lances.
Cossack Class Cruiser- This is the torpedo based fast cruiser has some weapon batteries but mostly torpedos.
Acolyte Class Carrier- This is the fast carrier that carries two long range lances in addition to its attack craft.

Warrior Class Cruiser- This is the cheap generalist cruiser that you have already found.
Hoplite Class Cruiser- This is the cheap lance equipped cruiser that is equipped in total with six lances.
Bishop Class Carrier- This is the cheap carrier that has token weapon batteries.
Praetorian Class Cruiser- This is the cheap short ranged cruiser.
Bolas Class Cruiser- The haywire equipped cruiser you have already found.

Spoiler: Battlecruisers and Heavy Cruisers

Marauder Class Battlecruiser- A battlecruiser armed with a mix of lances, weapons batteries and attack craft bays.
Disciple Class Carrier- A battlecruiser armed with several lances and two large attack craft bays.
Uhlan Class Battlecruiser- A battlecruiser armed with an array of long ranged lances.
Husser Class Battlecruiser- A battlecruiser armed with several weapons batteries and a large bank of torpedo tubes.
Night Class Battlecruiser- This is stealth based battlecruiser equipped long range weapons batteries and torpedoes.

Teutonic Class Heavy Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured heavy cruiser with a array of short ranged weapons.
Chevalier Class Heavy Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured heavy cruiser with equipped with weapons batteries and a few lances.
Paladin Class Heavy Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured heavy cruiser with an large array of lances.
Templar Class Heavy Carrier- A slow, heavily armoured heavy carrier with several powerful weapons batteries.

Spoiler: Grand Cruisers

Gurkha Class Grand Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured grand cruiser with weapons batteries and a few lances.
Scots Class Grand Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured grand cruiser with an array of powerful lances.
Landsknecht Class Grand Cruiser- A slow, heavily armoured grand cruiser with an array of short ranged weapons.
Pope Class Grand Carrier- A slow, heavily armoured grand carrier with an array of lances.

Spoiler: Battleships

Legate Class Battleship-A battleship equipped with a mix of lances, weapons batteries, torpedos and attack craft bays.
Champion Class Battleship-A battleship equipped with a massive collection of powerful weapons batteries and a Ragnarok Cannon.
Hero Class Battleship- A battleship equipped with a massive collection of exceeding powerful lances, including two superlances.
Berserker Class Battleship- A slow, heavily armoured battleship with a array of short ranged weapons.
Saint Class Carrier Battleship- A slow, heavily armoured carrier battleship with a array of long ranged lances.

Martyr Class Fast Carrier Battleship- A fast battleship carrier with a array of long ranged lances.
Mongol Class Fast Battleship - A fast battleship equipped with a massive collection of long raged powerful lances, including two superlances.
Hun Class Fast Battleship -A fast battleship equipped with a massive collection of long ranged weapons batteries and a Ragnarok Cannon.

Darkness Class Stealth Battleship – A fast battleship equipped with advanced stealth devices, long ranged weapons batteries, attack craft bays and torpedo tubes.

Spoiler: Command Battleships

Alexander Class Command Battleship- A Command Battleship equipped with massive array of weapons batteries and four Ragnarok Cannons.
Vajra Class Command Battleship- A Command Battleship equipped with an enourmus Grav-Accelerator cable of destroying Battelships in one hit.
Einherjar Class Command Battleship- A very heavily armored Command Battleship with powerful short range Lances.
Genghis Class Command Battleship- A fast Command Battleship with six Super-Lances.
Apostle Class Command Carrier- A heavily armoured, slow carrier that seems to be designed for planetary assault.
Gravatic Command Battleship (NO STC)- A light armed Command Battleship build around an incredible complex gravatic array of unknown use.

Spoiler: Dreadnoughts

Prophet Class Hyper Carrier- A twenty-four kilometer fast dreadnought armed with a mix of powerful weapons batteries, a pair of Ragnarok Cannons and many very advanced attack craft bays.
Legend Class Dreadnought- A twenty-two kilometrer dreadnought armed with a mix of lances, weapons batteries, torpedos and attack craft bays. It has two superlances and a pair of Ragnarok Cannons as well as a variety of other weapons.

Maybe it will help to have these information put together.

For everone else here some math. It will get ugly fast as I have gone over how much it will cost us to keep our Navy. It is expensive.

Spoiler: Math

Last turn our EM income was 26,000 for 5 years. So per year 5200.
All of our trade deals sum up to 5400 EM per year. 200 EM insufficient from self-sufficient.

Last turn our AM income was 4,400,000 for 5 years. Per year: 880,000.
All of our trade deals sum up to 701,000 AM per year. 179,000 AM free out of our production.

So: Without trade we would be in troube already!

Lets start with how a fleet would be structured around 1 CBS:

• 1 CBS
• 3-4 BS (3.5 middle)
• 24-48 Cruiser (35 middle)
• 96-240 Escort (157.5 middle)

To simplify it let take the middle of those numbers and run them down. (There are taken middles from middels wich lead to the screwed numbers)

Now insert these numbers into the price list from Hellheim Void Command. Let us run with the beliefe that DAoT ships are just as expansive as Imperial ones. Now here the sum of the resulted upkeep cost (middle for BS and Grand Cruiser as well as the different smaller Cruiser to ignore different classes) for such a number of ships:

• Material: 9,206,600 (ignorable)
• AM: 106,080 (we would be able to pay for it)
• EM: 862.6 (gven how much EM we buy it looks good)

Now the thing is that we have bought 300 Escorts and repaired anoth 90 (+90 thited). If we throw that number in and calculate up we got a different number of ships:

• 390 Escorts
• 78-97.5 Cruiser (86.666 middle)
• 6.5-12.2 BS (8.666 middle)
• 1.6-4.1 CBS (2.48 middle)

with:

• Material: 22,797,295.24
• AM: 262,674.29
• EM: 2,135.97

In both cases the distribution of Material is:

• 43.45% CBS
• 6.3% BS
• 21.52% Cruiser
• 28.74% Escorts

AM:

• 77.3% CBS
• 15.52% BS
• 4.69% Cruiser
• 2.49% Escorts

EM:

• 62.6% CBS
• 25.03% BS
• 7.62% Cruiser
• 4.75% Escorts

So yes. Having a large amount of Escorts and Cruiser will be no problem. The BS and CBS especially are the holes were AM and EM will disapear into.

The thing is that a fleet will loose effectiveness of it is to heavy on one aspect. So using the Escorts and Cruiser that are to much for a seperate highly mobile (because they can warp) System Defence Fleet is an affortable option.

I have done all calculating with Open Office.

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1.Not particularly, while Avernus may have been founded to assault deamon worlds that was when the Imperium existed, the situation has change so much that the old purpose is useless, you do not even know if their are any deamon worlds within a years travel distance
2. It is a bit below long ranged Macro Cannons
3. Yes, they are below everything long ranged

 

[Durin]

Thanks Elder Haman.

@durin
I have tried to guess at the cost of DAoT ships.
1. Is it correct that the upkeep cost of ships are uniform (exept defence ships unable to warp) in that they need 2% of their build cost as upkeep?
2. Comparing the cost of the revealed DAoT ships in the naval sheet I came to the following results and ask if they are correct:
2a. DAoT ships need 150% (50% more) Thrones to be build as a baseline.
2b. DAoT ships need 300% (200% more) Material to be build as a baseline.
2c. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Promethium to be build as a baseline.
2d. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Advanced Material to be build as a baseline.
2e. DAoT ships need 200% (100% more) Exotic Material to be build as a baseline.

Given how expensive the ships are to build and maintain I start to wonder if they will be able to worthwhile. The only thing we save compared to building two Imperial ones are crew (because we need to staff two ships and the automation that allow DAoT ships to need less crew can be used on Imperial ones as well) and Thrones (25% reduction).
What we gain is freaking out our oponents as they will not expect our ships to be so good.

What we loose is deterent (our fleet will only be half the size and easier to take) and adding a heavy strain on our Material production (needing more thrones to turn more metal into more Material so the reduced cost of Thrones is ofset by this).

So yeah. I will look now into a fleet plan out of Imperial and fewer core DAoT ships as pure DAoT is simply to expensive...

Click to shrink...

1. On average yes
2. A decent baseline, however you have to remember that the DAoT ships are on average at least twice as good

 

[Elder Haman]

@durin
How much support would this proposal have:

Resource Colony Independence:

Give the colonizer exactly the same rights over the resource colony as it has over its own world, making the resource colony an extension of the colonizer. This is in order to make their governance as simple as possible and allow them to fulfill their role as a source of raw resource for the colonizer. A resource colony must be under half a billion humans in order to count as a resource colony and if it exceeds that number then it becomes a full colony with the year of founding being the year in which it exceeded the population maximum. This is in order to prevent a resource colony from having a large population that may be repressed by the colonizer and to ensure that they are resource colonies not full colonies in disguise. At least a fifth of the income of the resource colony must be spent on the colony. In addition the residents of a resource colony, or any member of the Low Council, may petition the High Council for a resource colony to become a full colony, presenting arguments as to why the colony provides something of value to the Imperial Trust as a whole to justify the change in status.

 

[Durin]

Ghost towns in the American west aren't an apt comparison to what's likely to be set up. Nobody is going to found a resource colony that would only produce resources for a few decades - it's not worth the investment of resources for the return. Bare minimum a resource colony would be founded with the intention of producing the resource for many centuries, but more likely for millennia.

Yes, there will be resource colonies that stay too small to warrant independence, but I expect far more eventually will grow to that point than you're expecting. One of the biggest differences will be the level of investment placed in building up a resource colony vs. a full colony. People will found full colonies on worlds that are desirable to do so, where it's worth investing in a dozen or so initial cities and sending hundreds of millions of people immediately rather than only tens of millions to inhabit one or two cities, so it would take far longer to reach a high enough level of population to justify independence.

But perhaps @durin should chime in and tell us what we should expect here, because I think we're both operating under very different expectations.



Again, not a good example to prove your point. Our lunar cities are permanent settlements that we expect to be there in perpetuity. The AdMech Menials living there are going to largely be born there and will likely die there. Further, we expect to expand those to be hives that can contain billions of people, which would warrant independence under any of the plans posted, but they also aren't separated by light-years.

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In general the resource colonies being envisioned would have an initial population between a million and a hundred million, be focused on producing large amount of raw materials and be on otherwise uninhabitable worlds. It is likely that they would have a relatively stable or slowly growing population, of which a major proportion is native. The native proportion is most likely almost entirely working class

 

[Durin]

@durin
How much support would this proposal have:

Resource Colony Independence:

Give the colonizer exactly the same rights over the resource colony as it has over its own world, making the resource colony an extension of the colonizer. This is in order to make their governance as simple as possible and allow them to fulfill their role as a source of raw resource for the colonizer. A resource colony must be under half a billion humans in order to count as a resource colony and if it exceeds that number then it becomes a full colony with the year of founding being the year in which it exceeded the population maximum. This is in order to prevent a resource colony from having a large population that may be repressed by the colonizer and to ensure that they are resource colonies not full colonies in disguise. At least a fifth of the income of the resource colony must be spent on the colony. In addition the residents of a resource colony, or any member of the Low Council, may petition the High Council for a resource colony to become a full colony, presenting arguments as to why the colony provides something of value to the Imperial Trust as a whole to justify the change in status.

Click to shrink...

Currently Governor Olaf, Champion Surt, Lord Marshal Sigurd, Fabricator-General Britton and Governor Garp would support this giving you a majority

 

[Reynal]

Agreed.

I think the difference between us is that I see resource colonies and full colonies as a difference in kind, and you see it as merely a difference in degree.



That's... pretty much what everyone is proposing. Even Oalf has that in his proposal without any prompting.



Not sure why this is needed. Don't all full colonies have the right to petition the High Council?

Unless you mean that they should automatically get independence at 10 years the way virgin full colonies get independence at 100 years?

If so I must oppose. I don't see how we can assume that resource colonies that grew into full colony size will auto-magically have the extra resources to be independent in 10 years instead of 100.

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Sorry, I mean they aren't assumed to be on the 100 year path to independence--that if they feel like they're ready for independence after they've established a local government (which finishes at the 10 year mark) they can petition to go directly to independent status. Essentially, we should specifically acknowledge the fact that these colonies will be substantially more built-up than full colonies would be at the point that they achieve the population to become full colonies.

On the timing mark, my impression is that Enjou backdates the founding time once the population mark is reached to the lower of the time since its founding as a resource colony and its meeting of the benchmarks for full colonies. I disagree with this because I feel like it will put them on track to become independent colonies before they have the population needed to not become defensive liabilities once their founder stops supporting them.

 

[Reynal]

@durin

Who would prefer or support requiring the parent government to ensure that the standard of living on the resource colonies is comparable to that of the home world, as opposed to requiring a minimum of a fixed percentage of the value of the production of that colony is used in it?

 

[Enjou]

the independence proposal would have the support of Champion Surt, Governor Garp, Governor-General Aelfric, King Zaren and First Artisan Granalf
you would need to convince one of the three people abstaining (Inquisitor Varquez, Governor Ulric and Admiral Freyr) in order to have a majority

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Hmm... Varquez is probably the easiest to convince here.

The Inquisitorial audit ensures the Inquisition can do it's job openly on a semi-regular basis without it being considered stepping on someone's toes or butting into their business. [implicitly, we know they'll be doing investigations covertly anyways, but sometimes acting openly has benefits that covert operations don't] Further, resource colonies are particularly vulnerable to oppression, especially the ones with lower populations who are governed entirely by the colonizer, which is a particular danger since people know about Chaos and oppressed people are more inclined to join up with the Chaos because they ignorantly believe it will lead to a better life or even worse become corrupted by the Abomination by accepting and embracing their oppression. This is especially a risk since unlike in Imperial days people are aware of Chaos, rather than it being kept a secret. A strong Inquisitorial role here means that colonizers will be very wary of mistreating their subjects, preventing Chaotic corruption.

 

[HanEmpire]

major proportion is native

Click to shrink...

Well, that should increase the desire for independence greatly.