Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
Of course we would be aware of their mistakes and do what we can not to repeat them.
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The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up
- Thread starter Durin
- Start date
HanEmpire
Delicious
Imperial interpretation is that the entire "talking to xenos" thing was flawed, not that the Ancients made mistakes during their dealings. Not repeating their mistakes will just involve killing all the xenos.
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- No
Wait what mistakes? Didn't they basically get caught with their pants down? I mean I'm pretty sure that DAoT humans only fell apart was the Men of Iron being corrupted by Chaos, and then suddenly dealing with shit tons of psykers out of nowhere. Not a whole lot you could do to counter that.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
yes and then various previously peaceful aliens took advantage of the chaos, humanity seems to have decided to blame the aliens as much or more then the AIs or psykers
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- No
I thought that Humanity hated Xenos because the Eldar screwed them over. Though if that's why humanity hates xenos its a shit excuse. I'm sure that Chaos manipulated the previously friendly aliens just as much as they manipulated the Ais and psykers.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Sorta. As far as I can tell it started post the eldar fucking up literally so when there were warp storms everywhere all the Xenos turned on humanity.
Whether Humanity also turned on them however is unclear.
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
I am sure they did, however humanity blamed the Aliens, AIs and Psykers
- Location
- Alice Springs, Australia
it probably did, 40k humans are no saints
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Actually Saint Lin may very well be the nicest being in the 40K universe. He is literally the only person who is nice to seemingly everything.
That being said what is his general opinion of Xenos?
- Location
- his hidden lair
Point is, uplifting Xenos and trying to make some kind of Federation is not going to happen. There's a reason why the proviso in the charter of the Imperial Trust is for Protectorates (read subordinate, heavily disarmed, vassal states) more than anything else. Make no mistake, we're probably going to try and subjugate any xeno civilisation we meet if we feel we can get away with it. And that's still much better than Genociding the shit out of them like the Imperium used to.
HanEmpire
Delicious
Coloured lens, man, coloured lens. I'm sure that many of Saint Lin's actions and views will be viewed as horrifying to our early M3 sensibilities.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Never was suggesting the federation, well treated but still subservient protectorates yes pliz
I was trying to compare him to the rest of the universe and comparatively he is the nicest guy. Probably not great by our standards, but still overwhelmingly nice by their standards.
Yeah, no uplifting the Trolls. Peace treaties are acceptable at the moment, but anything more is problematic, especially since the Quartok haven't even gotten their protectorate yet and they are already a contentious issue.
Later on maybe we can hand them some extra guns and ammo if there are Necrons, Tyranids, or Chaos Space Marines invading and point them in the direction we want them to go if it appears the wildlife is mobilizing against the invaders, and maybe after that we can recruit some Troll auxiliaries with permission from the High Council. However, at no point would we ever actually educate the Trolls to become technologically saavy or anything like that. They can stay tribal as they have been for however long they've been around. They are only supposedly as smart as regular Ogryns anyways.
With the Quartoks he just kept kind of neutral on the subject and let us make the decisions. I don't think he'll actually give his opinion because he wants humanity to be thinking for itself to a degree due to the whole Abomination thing and he knows that if he says something it'll probably be taken as gospel truth. As long as we're not doing anything blatantly stupid he'll probably keep his opinion to himself.
Later on maybe we can hand them some extra guns and ammo if there are Necrons, Tyranids, or Chaos Space Marines invading and point them in the direction we want them to go if it appears the wildlife is mobilizing against the invaders, and maybe after that we can recruit some Troll auxiliaries with permission from the High Council. However, at no point would we ever actually educate the Trolls to become technologically saavy or anything like that. They can stay tribal as they have been for however long they've been around. They are only supposedly as smart as regular Ogryns anyways.
With the Quartoks he just kept kind of neutral on the subject and let us make the decisions. I don't think he'll actually give his opinion because he wants humanity to be thinking for itself to a degree due to the whole Abomination thing and he knows that if he says something it'll probably be taken as gospel truth. As long as we're not doing anything blatantly stupid he'll probably keep his opinion to himself.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
Defiantly for the best.
- Location
- Australia
The entire strategy was a mistake. The xenos did not hold any loyalty to humanity and most of those races that humanity saved and uplifted turned on them as soon as they became militarily vulnerable. Countless human worlds were exterminated or held in slavery for millennia before they could be freed by the Great Crusade. If we want to avoid repeating the same mistakes as the Dark Age humans, we have to be extremely selective of the xenos we trust enough to grant advanced technology to.
The Eldar were too busy having a gigantic super-orgy in their own Empire. They were about as insular then as they are now and didn't give a shit about humanity one way or the other.
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Massgamer
Advance toward the Future
- Location
- The Future
All fair points and if we place them under the control of the Trust rather than give them too much independence we could prevent major back stabs like we are already working toward with our other client state.
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- No
The Strategy was perfectly fine. No one could have planned for suddenly Eye of Terror. I'm sure Chaos did more then their fair share of pushing the aliens to taking advantage of humanity's week point as well. Try to remember that humanity was doing perfectly fine before Chaos turned the Men of Iron and Slaanesh was born.
That said we shouldn't really go out of our way to uplift the Trolls too far. We should keep our options open at least.
- Location
- his hidden lair
So, your argument is; "What the DAoT Humans did was a perfectly sensible strategy before Chaos became an active force in the galaxy", well I hate to break it to you but Chaos is still very much an active force, one that will abuse and sabotage any similar strategy. The key here is that any pet Xenos we decide to keep around have to be thoroughly defanged and vetted. Trust isn't given, it's earned. And we need to be careful giving Xenos and other polities too much opportunities to abuse us.
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- Location
- Australia
It's unlikely Chaos had much to do with that, actually. A crap-ton of the races that humanity overpowered and assimilated were rather warlike (as to be expected from 40k) and only bowed down to human dominance because of how powerful they were. With humanity gone, the other alien races could choose their own destiny going by whatever ideals they wanted. For both warlike and non-warlike races, that meant removing the still-extant human obstacles who had different goals.
They probably weren't in a position to do a lot of backstabbing considering how wrecked they got by the Men of Iron (who left the aliens alone because they're not humans) and then because of all the psykers and daemons. Also, humans in the Dark Age were a lot more saintly than they are now.
Subjugating is just as much of a mistake that the Dark Age humans made as the uplifting they did. It plants a seed of resentment within the xenos and ultimately puts them in a position to hurt us the moment we're vulnerable. The Imperium's xenocidal policy, for all its faults, prevented a lot of xeno empires from forming and threatening the Imperium. The Tau Empire was one such empire that formed when the Imperium failed to exterminate the natives.
His argument is more "What the DAoT Humans did was a perfectly sensible strategy before something bad happened and humanity could no longer maintain absolute dominance." Putting aside the fact that we don't have absolute galactic dominance any more, the Trust will eventually be attacked and no longer maintan absolute dominance over whatever xenos they've brought into the fold. We need to make sure that when that happens, the only xenos capable of hurting us are those that absolutely wouldn't even if they had the opportunity and a motive to do so.
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- No
You can say the exact same thing about the rest of humanity. Honestly it might make sense in the future to make it so that the requirements to join the Trust are the same for humans and xenos.
- Location
- Australia
Not all of them, but most of them. If it wasn't immediately, it was in the years, decades, and centuries after when it became clear that humanity wasn't going to make a comeback. The ones with the mentality you speak of actually had the right mentality in mind to survive the whole ordeal.
Such is 40k.
They didn't all turn on humanity - the Diasporex is an example of a civilization with both humans and xenos in it. But enough still turned on humanity during the Age of Strife that it pretty much made is to the Emperor and most of humanity just stopped trusting xenos as a whole.
- Location
- Australia
Ryza
EDIT: nvm it's a Necron weapon. Damn, was hoping it might be a cool archaeotech weapon we could find.
What's a transdimensional beamer?
EDIT: nvm it's a Necron weapon. Damn, was hoping it might be a cool archaeotech weapon we could find.
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Avernus has just as much biomass as Alfheim, it's just undomesticated. Also, Avernus has better biology for the hive-mind to assimilate. Given Lictors can absorb the memories of those they eat, all it would take is one guy whose been to Avernus (possibly as one of the tourists) getting eaten, then the Tyranids will be heading our way.
I heard one fan theory that the reason humans suddenly started mutating into psykers, the reason the MoI got corrupted, and the reason the xenos went hostile were one and the same: namely that the Warp Storms Slaanesh was kicking up weakened the boundaries between reality and the Warp leading to bleedthrough.