The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Enjou · Mar 12, 2016

Elder Haman said:
I think the Hunter Frigate is the most important, as it will allow us to take down capital ships. It's going to be a long time before we can build anything bigger than a cruiser, so we need something to fill the hole in allowing us to take out enemy capital ships.

Defending our own capital ships is a priority though.

The all rounder is IMO the top priority because it A) can fulfill the most roles, B) should take the least time to reverse engineer due to no new techs, and C) has the most intact ships out of all the available Escorts. Remember that our own fleet has a great lack of Escorts at the moment, and this would be the one quickest to deal with that weakness.

The one after that which is most important IMO is the defense Escort, since that will keep the Capital Ships we have alive longer.

Stealth Shuttle for a similar reason. Our boarding forces are some of the best, and a unique strength of the Avernite Navy. Stealth Assault Shuttles will make for a huge boost in our combat abilities. Plus they can be built without requiring a shipbuilding slot (of which we only have one), so our second Navy action next year can be spent on it.

I don't think it's meant to be a boarding craft. From the sheet:

On Finding: The first of these is a small assault shuttle that seems to be able to land a light tank or several infantry squads and provide a moderate amount of fire support. Most importantly this assault shuttle has advanced stealth technology and is capable of avoiding detection by most forms of scan. There are twenty-three intact Stealth Assault Shuttles in The Well of Urd and they will be difficult to reverse engineer but possible.

This indicates to me it's meant to be a landing craft, not a boarding craft. @durin - can you confirm, based on what we know?

Elder Haman · Mar 12, 2016

Enjou said:
Defending our own capital ships is a priority though.

The all rounder is IMO the top priority because it A) can fulfill the most roles, B) should take the least time to reverse engineer due to no new techs, and C) has the most intact ships out of all the available Escorts. Remember that our own fleet has a great lack of Escorts at the moment, and this would be the one quickest to deal with that weakness.

The one after that which is most important IMO is the defense Escort, since that will keep the Capital Ships we have alive longer.

Our capital ships won't last very long if we can't take out the enemy capital ships. We have a major hole in our offense. Filling that hole will make defense much easier. Plus we already have effective defensive escort STCs and we can start building them next turn, we don't have very effective capital killer escort STCs, so I'd much prefer to focus our reverse engineering there first.

Enjou said:
I don't think it's meant to be a boarding craft. From the sheet:

Hmm... assault shuttle usually means a boarding craft.

@durin can you clarify?

Enjou · Mar 12, 2016

Elder Haman said:
Our capital ships won't last very long if we can't take out the enemy capital ships. We have a major hole in our offense. Filling that hole will make defense much easier. Plus we already have effective defensive escort STCs and we can start building them next turn, we don't have very effective capital killer escort STCs, so I'd much prefer to focus our reverse engineering there first.

Our capital ships are able to take out other capital ships, as are our Defense Monitors. The all rounder can also serve that purpose too if it needs to, because it's an all rounder. Not as effectively, but it should be able to fulfill a variety of roles as needed.

Regarding our existing ship designs, the problem is that building them still takes too long. Larger numbers of intact ships mans we can get more ships in working order quickly.

It should also be noted that the hunter killers need to work in teams, and there aren't many intact ships of the class. Further, without sufficient other escorts types available to act as a screen, the hunter killers would be vulnerable to being attacked by other escorts without sufficient defense. I might agree they would be a higher priority if the Avernus fleet didn't have a very small number of escorts right now, but unfortunately we do. We need to fill in our numbers

Imperial Lord · Mar 12, 2016

Are we sure we want to contact the Trolls now when we still have some opposition regarding the Quartok?

Durin · Mar 12, 2016

just as a note

	Slips	time	Shipyard
Monitor	1	2	Small
Miner	2	3	Small
Merchant	2	3	Small
Mass Conveyer	13	6	Huge
Escort	1	3	Small
Light Cruiser	3	5	Small
Cruiser	4	6	Large
Ancient Defence Cruiser	4	8	Large
Battle Cruiser	8	7	Large
Heavy Cruiser	16	10	Huge
Grand Cruiser	32	11	Huge
Battleship	64	15	Gargantuan
Heavy Battleship	128	19	Gargantuan

Space		Cost Thrones	Cost Material	Cost Metal	Cost Promethium	Cost Advanced material	Cost Exotic Material	Upkeep Thrones	Upkeep Material	Upkeep Metal	Upkeep Promethium	Upkeep Advanced material	Upkeep Exotic Material
Shipyard 6 slips	100k production	200,000,000	30,000,000	15,000,000	30,000,000	1,200	50	40,000,000	6,000,000	3,000,000	3,000,000	-940.0	-9.00
Large Shipyard 24 slips	500k production	1,000,000,000	150,000,000	75,000,000	150,000,000	6,000	250	200,000,000	30,000,000	15,000,000	15,000,000	-3,700.0	-35.00
Huge Shipyard 96 slips	2 mil production	6,000,000,000	900,000,000	450,000,000	900,000,000	36,000	1,250	1,200,000,000	180,000,000	90,000,000	90,000,000	-14,200.0	-130.00
Gargantuan Shipyard 384 slips	8 mil production	42,000,000,000	6,300,000,000	3,150,000,000	6,300,000,000	252,000	8,750	8,400,000,000	1,260,000,000	630,000,000	630,000,000	-51,400.0	-430.00

Durin · Mar 12, 2016

Enjou said:
Defending our own capital ships is a priority though.

The all rounder is IMO the top priority because it A) can fulfill the most roles, B) should take the least time to reverse engineer due to no new techs, and C) has the most intact ships out of all the available Escorts. Remember that our own fleet has a great lack of Escorts at the moment, and this would be the one quickest to deal with that weakness.

The one after that which is most important IMO is the defense Escort, since that will keep the Capital Ships we have alive longer.

I don't think it's meant to be a boarding craft. From the sheet:

On Finding: The first of these is a small assault shuttle that seems to be able to land a light tank or several infantry squads and provide a moderate amount of fire support. Most importantly this assault shuttle has advanced stealth technology and is capable of avoiding detection by most forms of scan. There are twenty-three intact Stealth Assault Shuttles in The Well of Urd and they will be difficult to reverse engineer but possible.

This indicates to me it's meant to be a landing craft, not a boarding craft. @durin - can you confirm, based on what we know?

it seems to be a landing craft more then a boarding craft

Superticus · Mar 12, 2016

durin said:
just as a note

Space Cost Thrones Cost Material Cost Metal Cost Promethium Cost Advanced material Cost Exotic Material Upkeep Thrones Upkeep Material Upkeep Metal Upkeep Promethium Upkeep Advanced material Upkeep Exotic Material

Shipyard 6 slips 100k production Escorts, Merchantmen, Light Cruisers 200,000,000 30,000,000 15,000,000 30,000,000 1,200 50 40,000,000 6,000,000 3,000,000 3,000,000 -940.0 -9.00

Large Shipyard 24 slips 500k production Cruisers, Battlecruisers 1,000,000,000 150,000,000 75,000,000 150,000,000 6,000 250 200,000,000 30,000,000 15,000,000 15,000,000 -3,700.0 -35.00

Huge Shipyard 96 slips 2 mil production Heavy Cruisers, Grand Cruisers, Mass Convoyers 6,000,000,000 900,000,000 450,000,000 900,000,000 36,000 1,250 1,200,000,000 180,000,000 90,000,000 90,000,000 -14,200.0 -130.00

Gargantuan Shipyard 384 slips 8 mil production Battleships, Heavy Battleships (10-15 km) 42,000,000,000 6,300,000,000 3,150,000,000 6,300,000,000 252,000 8,750 8,400,000,000 1,260,000,000 630,000,000 630,000,000 -51,400.0 -430.00

We have a small and a large, yes?

I assume defence monitors are counted as being escorts in size because we had an option to build thirty of them at a time?

Durin · Mar 12, 2016

Superticus said:
We have a small and a large, yes?

I assume defence monitors are counted as being escorts in size because we had an option to build thirty of them at a time?

yes to both

Derek58 · Mar 12, 2016

[X] Expand Shipyards
-[X] Expedite: Expand Shipyards

[X] Power Armoured Exchange: Part One
[X] Contact Trolls

[X] Tutor Syr (Intrigue)

[X] Detailed Survey (Escort Destroyer)
[X] Detailed Survey (Escort Frigate)
[X] In-depth Examination (Kraken)

[X] Research: Psychic Frequencies Part One
-[X] Double Down: Research: Psychic Frequencies Part One

[X] Tutor Syr (Administration)

Superticus · Mar 12, 2016

If we're devoting an entire small shipyard to constant merchantmen production, and a small shipyard has has six slipways, with each merchantman taking three years to build (for example the turn 54 option), would we not produce 2 per year rather than one?

Enjou · Mar 12, 2016

Superticus said:
If we're devoting an entire small shipyard to constant merchantmen production, and a small shipyard has has six slipways, with each merchantman taking three years to build (for example the turn 54 option), would we not produce 2 per year rather than one?

No, because the second one isn't devoted to Merchantman production unless we set it up to be.

Andres · Mar 12, 2016

Enjou said:
Avernus has no terrestrial navy for obvious reasons. As such, getting some Krakens would give us something like it.

But what use would we have for a wet navy? We build our cities inland making them immune to kraken attack and any enemies that try to deploy their own wet navies will get killed very very quickly anyway. Moreover, the odds of us capturing a live kraken are slim and cloning one would take too long. It's a neat concept but not one with much use.

Superticus · Mar 12, 2016

Enjou said:
No, because the second one isn't devoted to Merchantman production unless we set it up to be.

If each merchant vessel took six years to manufacture, this would be true. But as it is there are six slipways and in six years each can produce two if it takes only three years (the time it took to make them in past turns):

The small shipyard devoted to merchant vessel production could look like this:

	slip 1	slip 2	slip 3	slip 4	slip 5	slip 6
year 1	3/3	3/3	1/3	1/3	2/3	2/3
year 2	1/3	1/3	2/3	2/3	3/3	3/3
year 3	2/3	2/3	3/3	3/3	1/3	1/3

(The vessel is finished at the end of the 3/3 year)

With year four being the same as year 1, or more generally year n being the same as mod3(n).

Nervos Belli · Mar 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
But what use would we have for a wet navy? We build our cities inland making them immune to kraken attack and any enemies that try to deploy their own wet navies will get killed very very quickly anyway. Moreover, the odds of us capturing a live kraken are slim and cloning one would take too long. It's a neat concept but not one with much use.

The Azure Isles face constant attack from the sea, since they are all close to the shore. Having krakens on our side would help repel Siren attacks, and while it will be tricky to acquire them, it certainly isn't impossible.

HanEmpire · Mar 12, 2016

@durin: Can you threadmark that post? It's a good reference.

Andres · Mar 12, 2016

Nervos Belli said:
The Azure Isles face constant attack from the sea, since they are all close to the shore. Having krakens on our side would help repel Siren attacks, and while it will be tricky to acquire them, it certainly isn't impossible.

I thought built our cities on them far enough inland that they were immune to kraken attacks, but I just did some research and apparently they still get hit by them. As for the Sirens, I forgot about them. Getting a tame kraken to kill them might help. It might not be impossible to capture a kraken but the time, effort, and lives we'd have to put into getting one might be better served elsewhere.

Superticus · Mar 12, 2016

Nervos Belli said:
The Azure Isles face constant attack from the sea, since they are all close to the shore. Having krakens on our side would help repel Siren attacks, and while it will be tricky to acquire them, it certainly isn't impossible.

And if we get invaded we could use a good way of getting stuff to and from the Azure Isles that isn't as vulnerable to fighters.

Enjou · Mar 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
But what use would we have for a wet navy? We build our cities inland making them immune to kraken attack and any enemies that try to deploy their own wet navies will get killed very very quickly anyway. Moreover, the odds of us capturing a live kraken are slim. It's a neat concept but not one with much use.

Orks sometimes have wet navies, and if they landed them somehow then we'd have no counter at the moment - with enough numbers they might scare off the native wildlife as they do on land. Tyranids also have ocean faring organisms. Further, just having some Krakens available would let us explore the ocean areas more easily.

As far as capturing a live Kraken, it can probably be done. Borrow some telepaths from the Astra Telepathica to try to mind control one (since they are apparently simple creatures it should be doable) and corral it into a pen. Alternatively try to bait one where we want it to go. There are options, and I'd presume Saren would have thought about them before proposing he actually pursue this project.

Also this:

Nervos Belli said:
The Azure Isles face constant attack from the sea, since they are all close to the shore. Having krakens on our side would help repel Siren attacks, and while it will be tricky to acquire them, it certainly isn't impossible.

The wildlife itself is a threat we can protect against.

Superticus said:
If each merchant vessel took six years to manufacture, this would be true. But as it is there are six slipways and in six years each can produce two if it takes only three years (the time it took to make them in past turns):

slip 1 slip 2 slip 3 slip 4 slip 5 slip 6

year 1 3/3 3/3 1/3 1/3 2/3 2/3

year 2 1/3 1/3 2/3 2/3 3/3 3/3

year 3 2/3 2/3 3/3 3/3 1/3 1/3

(The vessel is finished at the end of the 3/3 year)

With year four being the same as year 1, or more generally year n being the same as mod3(n).

You are presuming one slip fits one Merchantman - it obviously doesn't. A slip is a unit of space, not a unit of ships. Obviously one slip wouldn't fit a Battleship. A Merchantman likely takes two slips from what we've seen.

Andres · Mar 12, 2016

Superticus said:
And if we get invaded we could use a good way of getting stuff to and from the Azure Isles that isn't as vulnerable to fighters.

The underground railway line serves this purpose well.

Superticus · Mar 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
The underground railway line serves this purpose well.

I didn't think it reached the Azure Isles?

Karugus · Mar 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
The underground railway line serves this purpose well.

Except the underground railway explicitly does not connect to the Azure Isles.

Valkur · Mar 12, 2016

[X] Elder Haman

Andres · Mar 12, 2016

Enjou said:
Orks sometimes have wet navies, and if they landed them somehow then we'd have no counter at the moment - with enough numbers they might scare off the native wildlife as they do on land.

Just a few turns ago, we lost 440k heavily armed, heavily trained men behind fortifications on dry land due to one kraken attack. No amount of orks could survive actually being in the ocean.

Enjou said:
Tyranids also have ocean faring organisms.

This is a bit scarier.

Enjou said:
Borrow some telepaths from the Astra Telepathica to try to mind control one (since they are apparently simple creatures it should be doable) and corral it into a pen.

I keep forgetting that we can do cool things like that. Psykers are the best.

Enjou said:
The wildlife itself is a threat we can protect against.

I forgot about Sirens, to be honest. But aside from Kraken and Sirens, there really isn't much we can do to protect against the sea.

Karugus said:
Except the underground railway explicitly does not connect to the Azure Isles.

Really? I'm pretty sure we connected them at some point.

Void Stalker · Mar 12, 2016

@Enjou I would switch the Escort Destroyer out for another of the escorts as it seems to be the same style as the Escort Frigate and would not have any difference in tech recovered likely. Maybe one of the other frigates like the Hunter since that is a different weapon layout. Or we could go with a light cruiser as I think those take some heavy casualties so we can have both escorts and light cruisers to repair in two turns.

Enjou · Mar 12, 2016

Andres110 said:
Really? I'm pretty sure we connected it at some point.

We can't build a railway underwater.

Void Stalker said:
@Enjou I would switch the Escort Destroyer out for another of the escorts as it seems to be the same style as the Escort Frigate and would not have any difference in tech recovered likely. Maybe one of the other frigates like the Hunter since that is a different weapon layout. Or we could go with a light cruiser as I think those take some heavy casualties so we can have both escorts and light cruisers to repair in two turns.

As I said, the Escort Destroyer is the all rounder that can fulfill multiple roles, and it's the one we can get the most of to bolster our numbers quickly specifically because we won't have to bother with trying to get any new technologies and because it has the highest number of intact ships to repair. It's the low hanging fruit.

It's also not in the style of the Escort Frigate, which is focused mainly on defense.

Actually, this could be useful to ask about - @durin, do Freya or Admiral Parnell have any opinions on what ships might be most useful to go for first, what with them having naval expertise an all that?

The Long Night Part One: Embers in the Dusk: A Planetary Governor Quest (43k) Complete Sequel Up

Investigate the Sea?

Yes

No

Rocket Punch is Best Punch

Don't think this means you've won!

Delicious

The True Valkyria, Valkur!