Remove ads

The Heir of the Dragon: A Rhaenyra Targaryen Quest

Reader mode
There are only painful choices but this feels like making the most of the bad situations.

[X] Plan Not Great, Not Terrible

Edit approval voting
[X] Plan: Second Mother to Our Siblings
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan The Conciliator
-[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
-[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil


HAIL MARY les gooo lol.

Honestly, feel like letting the Laena plan go through is a bit wild, Corlys is absolutely wiping his ass with whatever treaty he signs once Laena has a boy.

only reason it was even between Blacks and Greens was because it was between the most politically powerful house vs richest house, and both sides had dragons.

If Laena marries Viserys then Corlys will have the richest house, the most politically powerful house, the most experienced army, and his line will hold all but two dragons in the world. Basically his win condition.

Also, Viserys might just say "nah, I'm not into kids" like he did in canon. Basically everyone told him to do it for the good of the realm and he still decided to go with Alicent.

Edit: Gonna try and aim for a Dornish match when we talk to Viserys.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Chaos is a Ladder
-[x] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
-[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
 
Alpaca27 said:
[X] Plan The Conciliator
-[X] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[X] Try to convince him to help convince your father to choose another bride
--[X] Dornish Marriage. Corlys and Daemon's lust for power will never cease, a check on them in the form of Dorne would do well. It would also ensure that the children of the second marriage would not be able to rise as challengers to make succession any more messy than it already is.
-[X] Make no firm offers but remain civil


HAIL MARY les gooo lol.

Honestly, feel like letting the Laena plan go through is a bit wild, Corlys is absolutely wiping his ass with whatever treaty he signs once Laena has a boy.

only reason it was even between Blacks and Greens was because it was between the most politically powerful house vs richest house, and both sides had dragons.

If Laena marries Viserys then Corlys will have the richest house, the most politically powerful house, the most experienced army, and his line will hold all but two dragons in the world. Basically his win condition.

Also, Viserys might just say "nah, I'm not into kids" like he did in canon. Basically everyone told him to do it for the good of the realm and he still decided to go with Alicent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I should note we don't have to tell Otto which alternative bride. The option is more telling Otto to advise your father to marry someone else in general who isn't a child. Telling Otto is an option but he will have opinions on any suggestions.
 
Yea, haven't decided on my vote yet, but letting the Laena marriage go through feels like a recipe for losing the throne...
The only positive I can think of in that regard is that Laena's firstborn is likely to be younger than ours, assuming we don't postpone our marriage for too long.
Fun fact - despite what GRRM might think, IRL people knew that teen pregnancy are extremely risky and so while teen marriages happened for the nobility, they were rarely consummated early.
 
I have to say, Axel's idea of trying to solve the succession issue by just getting a written document that says we're the heir seems really, really ineffective, and feels to be mostly a projection of modern view points of the value of contracts to ASOIAF. The succession isn't decided by a judge reading over a written contract to see which comma is placed where, but by Fire and Blood. Viserys didn't decide to get the lords' commitment in verbal public oaths rather then in writing because he for some reason wanted to weaken Rhaenyra's claim by not getting it in writing, he did it because that's how the Westerosi swear fealty to their overlords.
 
Last edited:
Yea, as CGP Grey called it in a few of his videos, medieval succession tended to be a combination of "Biggest Army Diplomacy" and "Fastest Army Diplomacy".
A big part of the reason Stephan became king instead of Matilde in the Anarchy was that his army got to London faster while she was in France. (Which is directly the reason their ASOIAF expies Aegon II and Rhaenyra are set up that he's in King's Landing when Viserys dies and she's on Dragonstone).
 
[X] Plan The Conciliator

This plan is better. Doesn't force Viserys to marry a child, which would be pretty low of us just for support towards gaining a council seat. We can set him up with Dorne option for a lack of other claimants.

Once his chance to Marry Laena to Viserys is gone, Corlys and Rhaenys will be more desperate, and we can get them to agree to a match with Laenor for far more than just support attaining a council seat.
 
[X] Plan Chaos is a Ladder
-[x] Diplomacy and Etiquette
-[x] Purpose an alliance with Otto, offering to marry his son Gwayne (Will increase Stress if Otto accepts)
-[x] Try and convince them to drop offer with Laena and have Laenor marry you instead (Will increase Stress if they accept)
 
Corlys is a power-hungry dick, willing to have his kids, brother, and wife die for his ambitions.

The fact that they whine about Rhaenys not getting the throne and how the Velaryons need even more to 'make up for the insult' is wild. That Rhaenys' kids were allowed to have dragons at all, much less one as old as Vhagar, is more than any other house in Westeros could ever expect.
 
Imperious said:
I have to say, Axel's idea of trying to solve the succession issue by just getting a written document that says we're the heir seems really, really ineffective, and feels to be mostly a projection of modern view points of the value of contracts to ASOIAF. The succession isn't decided by a judge reading over a written contract to see which comma is placed where, but by Fire and Blood. Viserys didn't decide to get the lords' commitment in verbal public oaths rather then in writing because he for some reason wanted to weaken Rhaenyra's claim by not getting it in writing, he did it because that's how the Westerosi swear fealty to their overlords.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is wholly ignoring that the last succession was solved pseudo-legalistically by a Great Council. Having a written agreement on succession is a hedge against the Velaryons calling one to get their children on the throne, not against an attempt to force the issue on dragon back.

The hedge against military threats to our succession is sword and dragon training. But that doesn't mean we should neglect other venues to secure our position. That way lays Maegor.
 
The agreement is more of a binding agreement since it does specifically place Laena's future children behind Rhaenyra in addition to making her the heir to the throne but there is the chance of Corlys weaseling out of it or just straight up ignoring it later on. Assuming he accepts the agreement in the first place.
 
Azel said:
This is wholly ignoring that the last succession was solved pseudo-legalistically by a Great Council. Having a written agreement on succession is a hedge against the Velaryons calling one to get their children on the throne, not against an attempt to force the issue on dragon back.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

No, your vote just wholly ignores that a contract is just a piece of paper that holds only as much weight as the reigning sovereign is willing to give it, and does no more for us then the oaths we were already given:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4&pp=ygUZVGhpc2UgYXJlIHRoZSBraW5ncyB3b3Jkcw%3D%3D
2:30
"Is this meant to be your shield princess Rhaenyra, a piece of paper?"

How does a piece of paper stop the Velaryons from calling a great council exactly?
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan The Conciliator

Imperious said:
No, your vote just wholly ignores that a contract is just a piece of paper that holds only as much weight as the reigning sovereign is willing to give it, and does no more for us then the oaths we were already given:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4&pp=ygUZVGhpc2UgYXJlIHRoZSBraW5ncyB3b3Jkcw%3D%3D
"Is this meant to be your shield princess Rhaenyra, a piece of paper?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Pretty much this, if someone is willing to betray you despite having sworn you Loyalty before the whole realm, he is still going to betray you even if he signs a piece of paper...
 
Imperious said:
No, your vote just wholly ignores that a contract is just a piece of paper that holds only as much weight as the reigning sovereign is willing to give it, and does no more for us then the oaths we were already given:

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8afaQFLSTH4&pp=ygUZVGhpc2UgYXJlIHRoZSBraW5ncyB3b3Jkcw%3D%3D
"Is this meant to be your shield princess Rhaenyra, a piece of paper?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Cersei isn't exactly a good example for your case, given that the whole thing spawned a massive civil war.

The important truth is that no one wants a civil war. Especially not one involving dragons. Having binding agreements that cement the succession further helps to curtail attempts by the Velaryons to go back on their word, because your word means something in a feudal society and they can't just coast on misogyny to invalidate previous oaths once a son exists.
 
Last edited:
Azel said:
Cersei isn't exactly a good example for your case, given that the whole thing spawned a massive civil war.

The important truth is that no one wants a civil war. Especially mot one involving dragons. Having binding agreements that cement the succession further helps to curtail attempts by the Velaryons to go back on their word, because your word means something in a feudal society and they can't just coast on misogyny to invalidate previous oaths once a son exists.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I should note, and I do not want to influence votes heavily but this is an important thing to note. The Great Council was called in 101 in part because people were preparing to start shit after Baelon's death. Two people in particular, Daemon and Corlys. Daemon was hiring sellswords for Viserys' claim whil The Sea Snake was preparing his fleet in support of his wife (Well son in the books but wife in Show canon)
 
Another thing that people don't seem to understand that the oath recognising us a heiress is not final. We are the heiress, right now, and a bunch of people will want to reopen the matter once our father has a son. This would not be considered breaking a previous oath, as circumstances have changed and by Westerosi custom we shouldn't inherit before a younger brother.

And this not somethings we can fight militarily unless we really want to be a second Maegor and enforce our views over established custom through mass murder.
 
Azel said:
Cersei isn't exactly a good example for your case, given that the whole thing spawned a massive civil war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, the piece of paper was why Robb, Stannis, Renly and Balon took up arms against Joffrey.

Azel said:
The important truth is that no one wants a civil war. Especially not one involving dragons. Having binding agreements that cement the succession further helps to curtail attempts by the Velaryons to go back on their word, because your word means something in a feudal society
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Like say, the oaths canon Rhaenyra and us already got?

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIDOjdfqFFs&pp=ygUYbG9yZHMgc3dlYXIgdG8gcmhhZW55
Azel said:
and they can't just coast on misogyny to invalidate previous oaths once a son exists.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How do you think the dance started in canon?
 
Imperious said:
Yes, the piece of paper was why Robb, Stannis, Renly and Balon took up arms against Joffrey.


Like say, the oaths canon Rhaenyra and us already got?

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIDOjdfqFFs&pp=ygUYbG9yZHMgc3dlYXIgdG8gcmhhZW55

How do you think the dance started in canon?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I feel like I'm trying to get the basics of how a feudal society functions across to you.

The whole point of heirs and oaths is to not settle everything through fire and blood the moment there's a disagreement. The point of hashing out succession concerns before a marriage occurs is to ensure no disagreement crops up later and if one side wants to go back on their word, it will weaken their case in the diplomatic field. It makes it harder to get people to support your claim and make agreements when your claim rests on explicitly tearing up a previous agreement.

Our best option to shore up our position is to ensure that everyone contesting our position in succession is a clear cut usurper, instead of getting to hide behind appeals to tradition.
 
Azel said:
I feel like I'm trying to get the basics of how a feudal society functions across to you.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I actually feel I have to explain the same to you for thinking that a written contract is worth so much more then a traditional oath spoken before the entire realm.


Azel said:
I feel like I'm trying to get the basics of how a feudal society functions across to you.

The whole point of heirs and oaths is to not settle everything through fire and blood the moment there's a disagreement. The point of hashing out succession concerns before a marriage occurs is to ensure no disagreement crops up later and if one side wants to go back on their word, it will weaken their case in the diplomatic field. It makes it harder to get people to support your claim and make agreements when your claim rests on explicitly tearing up a previous agreement.

Our best option to shore up our position is to ensure that everyone contesting our position in succession is a clear cut usurper, instead of getting to hide behind appeals to tradition.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Breaking agreements such as say, the oaths they already swore to us? Do you not remember how the dance happens in canon? We already have everyone's oaths. Our half brother could just say that no agreement signed by Corlys rather then himself could possibly be binding upon him, and it'd make about as much as the figleafs which everyone who canonically used to ignore their oaths when they declared for Aegon used. They're going to have a custom they could point to in Andal succession laws to justify our brother inheriting before us no matter what, because that's the exiting custom oaths or not, to the point that Viserys' master of laws went to his executioner proclaiming that a man must inherit before a woman. Getting those same oaths in writing rather then verbally isn't what would have changed his mind.
 
[X] Plan The Conciliator

Honestly, with Viserys' ambitions to peace, the idea of a dornish marriage to reduce dornish aggression and form a united front against the triarchy to intimidate them is likely very possible to succeed.
 
Last edited:
Imperious said:
I actually feel I have to explain the same to you for thinking that a written contract is worth so much more then a traditional oath spoken before the entire realm.




Breaking agreements such as say, the oaths they already swore to us? Do you not remember how the dance happens in canon? We already have everyone's oaths. Our half brother could just say that no agreement signed by Corlys rather then himself could possibly be binding upon him, and it'd make about as much as the figleafs which everyone who canonically used to ignore their oaths when they declared for Aegon used. They're going to have a custom they could point to in Andal succession laws to justify our brother inheriting before us no matter what, because that's the exiting custom oaths or not, to the point that Viserys' master of laws went to his executioner proclaiming that a man must inherit before a woman. Getting those same oaths in writing rather then verbally isn't what would have changed his mind.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The point of the written contract is to regulate succession beyond what the oath recognising us as heiress does. No one swore to uphold our claim against a male sibling and you shouldn't pretend that this is implicit, because it very much isn't, as you are pointing out yourself.

You are also disregarding the actual military aspect. Daemon is our enemy. The Velaryons have two dragons. How does antagonising the Velaryons improve our situation? We are short on powerful allies against a revanchist uncle and the thread seems keen to ignore that and instead to destabilise the realm further by chasing Dorne.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top