I also don't know how actually inevitable prophecy is in ASOIAF. For obvious reasons in a story you'd mostly hear about the prophecies that came true.
S'not a question of the veracity of a prophecy received through an interlocutor, but a question of a vision we saw ourselves. We could misinterpret it, of course, but I don't think we are that good at lying to ourselves even if we wanted to (and why would we invent a trepidatious and horrific vision of civil war to torment ourselves with?).
 
Also the biggest clue that the women is probably Rhaenyra sister besides her Targ coloring and the naming thing, is that she was wearing yellow which is one of House Westerling colors
 
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This just stuck out to me for some reason, cause the wording implies that the events around Aemma's death were largely the same, even with our Rhaneyra being pretty different from Canon Rhaenyra in a few ways, so I gotta ask, what events went differently at the tourney for Baelon and episode 1 in general than in Canon due to our Rhaenyra being different, Nyra and Alicent not speaking to each other at the time, Nyra and Daemon not having as warm a relationship, etc?
The main differences for episode 1 would be the lack of Alicent/Rhaenyra moments and Daemon not giving Rhaenyra the necklace. Daemon still asked for Alicent's favor because he was trying to upset Otto (The two loathe each other).
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Teen Spirit on Nov 20, 2024 at 4:28 PM, finished with 68 posts and 35 votes.
 
I think it'd be cool to literally be the Greens, just imagine how livid Daemon would be if we showed up in green armor as a declaration of hostilities to like his wedding or something.

But I think we need to stake a claim on Black too. Daemon can be the Reds (or Red and Blue if he gets the Velayrons). Otherwise we risk looking like a Christmas tree.
 
I mean there is a reason why the Blacks were called the blacks - it is, IIRC, for the black of the Targaryen shield. The Blacks were the Targaryen legitimists, which is reflected in their faction name.

That's... not something we should give up (well, "give up" on a meta-level, t hat is), I think. Being the legitimist party and being named for that, via the Targaryen coat of arms, is a good thing, actually.
 
I mean there is a reason why the Blacks were called the blacks - it is, IIRC, for the black of the Targaryen shield. The Blacks were the Targaryen legitimists, which is reflected in their faction name.

That's... not something we should give up (well, "give up" on a meta-level, t hat is), I think. Being the legitimist party and being named for that, via the Targaryen coat of arms, is a good thing, actually.

I think this is exaggerated or fan interpretation - the Blacks were the faction supporting the King's declared heir, the Greens the King's firstborn son. Neither used the Targ coat of arms - Rhaenyra quartered hers, Aegon changed a color on his.

Edit: To clarify this a bit, both sides could claim to be the legitimate succession (and did so). If the color name used informally was that important they'd have split on red and black.
 
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Daemon can be the Reds (or Red and Blue if he gets the Velayrons).
I really think we should try to get the Velayrons on board with us. I still believe that Leanor is one of the best options for husband we have. Probably a better pick than in canon for both political and personal reasons.

1. It ties to us one of the most powerful houses in westeros. Otto and the Hightowers are likely to side with us, both because we're on better terms with Otto and because its not his blood as the other claimet. This leaves the Velayrons allying with Daemon as the current biggest threat. Marrying Leanor takes care of that pretty nicely.

2. Leanor is a husband we *know* won't oppose our relationship with Alicent. Nor his family. If Corlys and Rhaenys stayed loyal after Rhaenyra literally cuckolded their son, I doubt Alicent is a deal-breaker.

3. Since our Lover can't get us pregnant (at least without magic or something) the chances for true born children is much higher. Without Harwin there as an easy alternative Rhaenyra is more likely to keep trying with Leanor or at least pick someone who looks like him.
 
Maybe a wreath of green flames added onto the primary Targaryen arms? Or if that's too gaudy, add green eyes to the dragon heads?

There is a scene in the Vorkosigan saga, where a soldier in a civil war reports to the supreme HQ of his side, led by Regent Aral Vorkosigan. Aral is the regent for a child emperor, whereas the other side accuses him of having kidnapped and killed the child, and their leader has declared himself emperor in a pretty transparent bid for power. Aral is shocked to see the reporting soldier wearing a brown armband. The soldier explains that since everyone is wearing the same imperial uniform, battle is confusing, so the sides have taken up the custom of wearing armbands, with brown for the colours of House Vorkosigan.

Aral orders that practice completely stopped. "We have received our uniforms from the Emperors. Let the traitors modify theirs if they so wish." (Paraphrased)

I.e., we should not modify our arms and colours and sigils at all, but always fight under the three-headed red dragon on black, with zero modifications. It is a matter of legitimacy. We are not just a side in a civil war, as good as any other from whom we would need to distinguish ourselves. We are the Targaryen Kingdom, the rightfully appointed heir, and we represent that in our arms.

I think this is exaggerated or fan interpretation - the Blacks were the faction supporting the King's declared heir, the Greens the King's firstborn son. Neither used the Targ coat of arms - Rhaenyra quartered hers, Aegon changed a color on his.

Edit: To clarify this a bit, both sides could claim to be the legitimate succession (and did so). If the color name used informally was that important they'd have split on red and black.
Cole launched a pretty explicit coup d'etat - an usurpation. There was (and still is) no codified Targaryen succession. Andal rules don't apply, and even if they applied Rhaenys would be Queen, not Viserys. The Greens were a coup d'etat against the existing royal structures and instructions. The Blacks absolutely were the Targaryen legitimists.

Now, colour isn't that important, but we are the legitimate party and we should milk it for all it's worth. And we owe it to ourselves not to budge on this. We are not just a side in a potential civil war, as good as any other. We are the only legitimate heir, and we should uncompromisingly push that point home.
 
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I mean there is a reason why the Blacks were called the blacks - it is, IIRC, for the black of the Targaryen shield. The Blacks were the Targaryen legitimists, which is reflected in their faction name.

That's... not something we should give up (well, "give up" on a meta-level, t hat is), I think. Being the legitimist party and being named for that, via the Targaryen coat of arms, is a good thing, actually.

I'm pretty sure that the "Blacks" and "Greens" come from the colours of the dresses Rhaenyra and Alicent wore to some major event. Rhaenyra wore a black dress, Alicent wore Green. Hence "the princess'" men became known as the Blacks and "the queen's" men became known as the Greens.
 
I really think we should try to get the Velayrons on board with us. I still believe that Leanor is one of the best options for husband we have. Probably a better pick than in canon for both political and personal reasons.

I prefer a marriage to Gwayne, not because it is the most politically prudent, but as likely the best way we can spend our marriage for Alicent's sake. He likely the best beard, and a marriage with him also secures Alicent in the event of a breakup or falling out between us. Not that I think that's likely, but a key difference between a wife and a mistress is that the wife's position is secure even if the husband's interest wanes, whereas a mistress can easily be set aside in dishonor and disgrace. I'd like to give that security to Alicent as best we can.

1. I think the Hightowers being on our side is actually pretty up in the air. Our relationship with Otto is better than canon, but still neutral. And our relationship with Alicent is politically only worth what Otto thinks it is - if he finds out and thinks it's a source of shame and embarrassment which he has very little to show for, then it could be a source of conflict rather than alignment. Between us and Daemon he'll pick us because fuck Daemon. But between us and a kid by Johanna, it's a lot less clear cut.

2. This is something we can scout out beforehand. I'm pretty sure Gwayne asking our favor indicates he'd be okay with being King Beard. But we can and should ask. If he isn't then that kiboshes that. Corlys' loyalty is I think more questionable than this makes it out to be. Remember he does switch teams toward the end of the war. In show canon first Rhaenys wants to defect and then Corlys does, just not at the same time.

3. We do know we can have Trueborn kids with Laenor, but that we'd take a stress hit trying for one every time.

I do agree that the Velayrons are the best political match, but it also feels to me like trying to retread canon but do it better, which isn't particularly appealing to me. Also, Corlys has been not particularly accommodating to negotiation.

Cole launched a pretty explicit coup d'etat - an usurpation. There was (and still is) no codified Targaryen succession. Andal rules don't apply, and even if they applied Rhaenys would be Queen, not Viserys. The Greens were a coup d'etat against the existing royal structures and instructions. The Blacks absolutely were the Targaryen legitimists.

Now, colour isn't that important, but we are the legitimate party and we should milk it for all it's worth. And we owe it to ourselves not to budge on this. We are not just a side in a potential civil war, as good as any other. We are the only legitimate heir, and we should uncompromisingly push that point home.

The Greens had control of most of the royal structures and institutions before the war - the people who made up Viserys' small council backed Aegon, with the exception of Beesbury. They didn't need to go against existing structures because they largely controlled them.

The idea that sons before daughters is some uniquely Andal idea is ridiculous - the North does the same thing and it was Aegon, not Visenya, who inherited Dragonstone. If anything, the Andal succession was more favorable to female claimants than what was practiced by the Targaryens prior to Rhaenyra and after her. But the question is whether or not the King has the ability to unilaterally change his succession, and in the context of show canon and this quest the answer is definitely yes.

But again, I think we should assume that the canon characters had at least competent advisors on this, and if it was that important that they fight under the red and black they would have done so.

As a factor towards that, it seems to questionable how much that legitimacy is worth. There will have been five kings before us. The first was an incestuous polygamist who personally killed a lot of the Westerosi nobility in a war of aggression, and whose polygamy laid the seeds for a succession crisis. The second took a massive dump on the religion of most of his subjects and proceeded to lose de facto control of most of the seven kingdoms. The third took another massive dump on the same religion, was a kinslayer and broke guest right, as well as murdering another huge batch of the nobility and gruesomely tortured several of his wives to death. The fourth was Jae, who was decent and well respected. Nice! The fifth is Viserys, who was okay but also kinda in canon his inaction laid the seeds for yet another succession crisis.

Now IC, of course, this is a lineage to be proud of. Conquerors out of Old Valyria, so on and so forth, and it would be treason to suggest otherwise.

OOC, it would not surprise me if sizable portions of Westeros did not give half a fuck about who the legitimate heir is - and those who do are thinking more in terms of who they swore oaths to then who the Targ legitimists are. It's a recurring GRRM point that legitimacy is a shadow on the wall, and the only King the smallfolk really care about is King Bread.
 
The idea that sons before daughters is some uniquely Andal idea is ridiculous - the North does the same thing and it was Aegon, not Visenya, who inherited Dragonstone.

The North isn't Valyrian, either, and as for Targaryens, once again, the whole issue is that there is no such thing as a codified Targaryen succession law like there is for Andals or Rhoynar. Which means one cannot call upon succession law to invalidate a chosen heir, because that law doesn't exist.

But again, I think we should assume that the canon characters had at least competent advisors on this, and if it was that important that they fight under the red and black they would have done so.
If we employ that logic across the board, then the whole quest becomes kinda meaningless. The entire point is that here we can make our own decisions and employ our own strategies. And while the colours and arms may not mean much, it is also no great cost. It costs us literally nothing not to modify our arms - but if we discuss what our arms should be, which we had, then legitimacy is a valid argument in favour of not modifying them.

As I have said, let the traitors modify their arms if they so wish, we are the true Targaryen line of succession, and nothing else. We are not just one war side among many, as good as the others. And we should act accordingly, and not preemptively weaken our legitimacy - regardless of how little that means, because it's not like we gain anything from modifying our arms.

It's a recurring GRRM point that legitimacy is a shadow on the wall, and the only King the smallfolk really care about is King Bread.
Yeah, but the smallfolk don't matter, and you see legitimacy repeatedly being a thing among the nobility, actually. Why are there still Stark loyalists in the North even after the House is considered to be all but extinct? See Manderly's speech - "the North remembers". Hell, the entire reason the Boltons even do their whole fake "Arya Stark" charade is for the sake of legitimacy. And you have that in several other instances as well - Lancel's marriage to Ami Frey was because she had a Darry mother, so in order to secure Lancel's hold on Darry. Other marriage plans follow similar considerations, all about gaining legitimacy for newly acquired lands. Because legitimacy actually does matter, and that a great deal. There is a great deal of legitimism and loyalism, actually, like the actions of the Darrys in smuggling out the Mad King's youngest children, or the unshaken loyalty of the Dornish nobility to the Martells during the Dornish Wars - even as all their holds were burnt down but Sunspear spared, even as they all had to flee into t he desert, even as the Targaryens put huge bounties on Martell heads.

And even in mattes of Targaryen succession - yeah, sure, political factors were a big concern in how successors were chosen in Grand Councils (because, again, there is no codified law of succession for Targaryens), but matters of legitimate descent and all that mattered as well. We should not think that this is not a factor at all in succession disputes, it very much is. After all, the whole system of nobility rests on the notion of legitimate succession, even if the rules are not uniform.

And in terms of book themes, I would actually say the opposite. Power rests where people believe it to rest. Varys' assertion is seen again and again and again in the books. That is a theme of the books. Yes, you can describe that as "power is a mummer's play", but I think the reverse is much truer - power is upheld through a mummer's play. Legitimacy is what leads everyone to believe they should follow this or that guy.

Plus if nothing else, I just don't see a reason why we should lessen ourselves and not claim full legitimacy in our actions, insignia, symbols, etc? Why pre-emptively give up any of that.
 
The Starks ruled the North for eight thousand years, their rule was disrupted by breaking guest right, and are extremely fondly remembered. We have been that Jae is fondly remembered, but our family showed up barely more than a hundred years ago. I do not think it is comparable.

I do think the logic that people in universe are intelligent is more applicable in certain areas. For instance, it doesn't apply any time a character would be acting out of personal desires over what they know is politically correct, like canon!Rhaenyra having kids with Harwin.

That said, I'm not arguing for permanently altering our sigil - just that informal color is not terribly important, and that if there is a civil war, then contra fictional examples our troops being able to identify each other readily might be more valuable than grandstanding about being the real legitimists. Also, having a "call to war" color is cool.

In terms of appearances, I do think there's another narrative, particularly if it's primarily us vs. Daemon. Whatever the law is, Daemon will certainly view himself as the real Targaryen. Daemon seems like the kind of guy to view stuff like Valyrian blood purity as important - in show!canon Mysaria is portrayed by an asian actress, but in book!canon she's from Lys (e.g. likely phenotypically Valyrian), and Rhea mentions his fondness for white haired women. He'll at least try to align himself with the Velayrons, and marry Laena. He gets married in Valyrian ceremonies instead of Fot7 ones. Also, between the two of us, he's the one who literally has a red dragon. It might be hard to outflank him on that.

So… we could present ourselves as the real Westerosi. We'll be the first Queen to have any mainland Westerosi ancestry (being descended from the Arryns). We could well be the first ruler to not marry a first cousin or closer. Both Viserys and Daemon dream of the glory of Old Valyria, but our dreams are about being a honorable knight and wooing our pretty Andal girl. Daemon (and if they side with him, the Velayrons) are unassimilated foreigners with no care for Westeros except as something to rule over, it's our home.

That said, this wouldn't work against our half siblings if they're the threat, and generally how we present ourselves is dependent on stuff that yet to come. It's not actually like we have a vote on what color we use anytime soon.
 
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I will point out that Rhaenyra's sigil during the war (Book Canon at least) was her personal Sigil not the family flag. Personal sigils are quite common.

Edit: And yes you will be able to choose Rhaenyra's personal sigil in time.
 
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This is mostly idle speculation/not sure how we'd actually go about doing it, but man itd be nice to talk to Rhaenys, Laena and Laenor without Corlys around. To me it seems like Corlys is the biggest obstacle to our attempts at diplomacy with the Velayrons. He's also the only one of the four without a dragon. No a massive navy and being a trade giant are hardly nothing, but there's other powerful naval trading houses out there and considerably fewer dragon riders.

I mean yes the incredibly patriarchal social norms means his dragon riding wife and kids will defer to him, but I can't help but wonder if encouraging Laena to develop her own Defiant streak, and fuck off to play Indiana Jones with her massive fuck off dragon vs marrying someone old enough to be her dad and really driving it home to Rhaenys "hey you know your husband was looking to get your daughter killed the same way my mom was right???" Is a viable way of handling the Velaryons.
 
I really think we should try to get the Velayrons on board with us. I still believe that Leanor is one of the best options for husband we have. Probably a better pick than in canon for both political and personal reasons.

1. It ties to us one of the most powerful houses in westeros. Otto and the Hightowers are likely to side with us, both because we're on better terms with Otto and because its not his blood as the other claimet. This leaves the Velayrons allying with Daemon as the current biggest threat. Marrying Leanor takes care of that pretty nicely.

2. Leanor is a husband we *know* won't oppose our relationship with Alicent. Nor his family. If Corlys and Rhaenys stayed loyal after Rhaenyra literally cuckolded their son, I doubt Alicent is a deal-breaker.

3. Since our Lover can't get us pregnant (at least without magic or something) the chances for true born children is much higher. Without Harwin there as an easy alternative Rhaenyra is more likely to keep trying with Leanor or at least pick someone who looks like him.
I very much agree that the Velaryons are the best political marriage, BUT I have not renounced yet to an actual marriage for love...

Honestly an alternative that would put the Velayrons in our sphere without geting married to Laenor would be try to get together Jeyne and Leanor, which is probably the happiest marriage that they can aspire to...
I prefer a marriage to Gwayne, not because it is the most politically prudent, but as likely the best way we can spend our marriage for Alicent's sake. He likely the best beard,
Are you sure about this? You may call me crazy, but if I was in Alicent place I would prefer anyone other as a beard over my brother...

If only because Rhaenyra is still going to need to produce heirs (and since that also gives us Dragonriders the more the merrier), and I wouldn't be fine with my brother fucking my girlfriend...

Hell, I would honestly prefer pretty much anyone else doing the deed rather than my brother...
 
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I very much agree that the Velaryons are the best political marriage, BUT honestly I have not renounced yet to an actual marriage for love...

Honestly an alternative that would put the Velayrons in our sphere without geting married to Laenor would be try to get together Jeyne and Leanor, which is probably the happiest marriage that they can aspire to...

Are you sure about this? You may call me crazy, but if I was in Alicent place I would prefer anyone other as a beard over my brother...

If only because Rhaenyra is still going to need to produce heirs (and since that also gives us Dragonriders the more the merrier), and I wouldn't be fine with my brother fucking my girlfriend...

Hell, I would honestly prefer pretty much anyone else doing the deed rather than my brother...
Depends how things go I suppose, it's obvious that we have to look at the advantages, political or otherwise for any potential match (Although I will say that Daemon and Corlys are getting rather close and Leana is canonically Daemon's wife so it would probably be wise to not get too attached to a Velaryon marriage even if it is pragmatically the best option)

But Rhaenyra herself does want a loving marriage and Driftmark is the very last stop on our progress, so there are good chances that Rhaenyra has good chemistry with a man and if she does I would personally like to go for that match.
 
But Rhaenyra herself does want a loving marriage and Driftmark is the very last stop on our progress, so there are good chances that Rhaenyra has good chemistry with a man and if she does I would personally like to go for that match.
We already have the confirmed list of possible romance partners and the options for men are quite limited Qoren Martell, Forrest Frey, Harwin Strong, and Amos Bracken

Obviously, the options for Marriage is much longer
 
We already have the confirmed list of possible romance partners and the options for men are quite limited Qoren Martell, Forrest Frey, Harwin Strong, and Amos Bracken

Obviously, the options for Marriage is much longer
True, but to be fair that list was given quite a while ago and there might be more men Rhaenyra could fall in love with than previously listed.

I mean Tyrion was able to find love in Tysha (Not the greatest example I know) and according to descriptions even our warrior Rhaenyra is quite a bit more easy on the eyes than Tyrion.

Tyrion is likely the more charming of the two however.
 
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