The God Diversion

[_brightwing]

We're making Sharky's newsmagazine for God Diversion. Like Immersion! If you guys want to contribute hop into Discord for the brainstorming. Bring your Meme A-game! (in the thread in the #God-Diversion channel)

Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

Discord is great for playing games and chilling with friends, or even building a worldwide community. Customize your own space to talk, play, and hang out.

discord.gg

 

[Zedred]

Human history is defined by sloth, to work hard today to rest easier tomorrow. If Solomon wishes to become the King Of Magic, he who lazes around while his magical servants do all the work, then he must go Even Further Beyond.

And to do that...

View: https://imgur.com/a/QrzXQFT

 

[Drunk Crab]

[X] Plan Wallet

 

[sleepypanda]

[X] Dual Immersion [30 Will, 12 Credit]

 

[Andre Chaos]

I just came back home and saw this. Feel, like I missed everything.

[X] Plan Wallet

 

[JOEbob]

I'd be amenable to such an act. For the sake of argument, I support Buffed Angelic - there's more bang for our comparative buck.

Click to shrink...

Nominally, yes. But is that the case in practice? Solomon possesses the Architecture, which is effectively a force multiplier; Penelope might match its average benefits with suitably high Truthseeker, but that's XP she's spending that isn't more-bang-for-our-buck. Some also argue Penelope is less competent, and while not all their arguments hold water, they aren't all wrong either. Solomon is also a genius more generally, in ways Truthseeker likely doesn't supplement. His Will is poor, to be sure, but avenues do exist to improve it through XP.
In addition to all that, Solomon's aspects are generally more synergistic than Penelopes, something that's long-term much more important than raw XP totals. This is a 'short-term' choice, but of scale large enough that this comes into play. Treating a Devotion as an extra Aspect and assuming we take a suitably versatile one in the next vote, Solomon's effective Arcanum would be something like... 6+2ish(Eldritch; maybe higher depending on techniques)+3ish (Devotion 3)=11 outside his sanctum; and amplified by a further unknown amount(in that we don't know how x2 power translates to effective aspect levels) within it. Penny would end up slightly stronger within the domains of her specialised aspects (assuming they are about as specialised as Hermes), but worse-off anywhere else, unless her Aspects have a nonobvious synergy.
(of course, Angelic Penny's Aspects still beat Eldritch Solomon in a fight. Combat is much easier to apply multiple powersets to at once, they just need to all help and be usable in parallel.)

But in addition to all that: Eldritch Solomon is a mage; Angelic Penelope is a paladin. One of these is far more suited to the creation of large masses of magical energy (a situation under which Sanctum presumably helps). So Eldritch Solomon has the immediate faculty to arrange for the empowerment of Penelope with direct proportion to his power (via the Rite of Absorption), whereas Angelic Penelope... could probably help somehow, maybe through Lawbringer, but not so directly or cleanly.

 

[Rihaku]

Alright, as the QM, I'll outbid everyone in the thread.

If all donators are willing to pool their resources together, you can instead allow the thread to acquire this Empowerment for the stated price:

[ ] Dual Immersion [30 Will, 12 Credit] - Effort is a most scarce quiddity.

And yet, even within you is the potential to go even further beyond. In an egalitarian endeavor, the work of conjoined hands, there is a strength greater than in any lone man's sword: a strength to build a better tomorrow... and to slack off at least a little bit.

Both Solomon and Penelope benefit from the following:

*Gain 27,500 XP. This XP counts as triple if spent on Eldritch, Seraph, Truthseeker, or Lawbringer; double if spent on Arcanum or Retributor.
*Gain Aspect: Eldritch (Level 5) and Aspect: Seraph (Level 5) immediately.
*Discount Level 6 of both 75%.
*Develop four Level 3 Techniques for both Aspects, each.
*You'll become the virtual rulers of your Class. +++++Penelope.
*You can both spend your XP immediately.

Click to shrink...

Interesting!

Birdsie, can you clarify the following:

*Both characters will get Eldritch and Seraph
*The Techniques (8 total) are split in this way: 4 for Eldritch, 4 for Seraph
*Penelope total Social Link becomes ++++++ as a result of this

Can you also answer, with as much specificity as possible, how well Eldritch stacks with Arcanum in these two scenarios:

*Four level 3 Eldritch Techniques boosting its synergy with Arcanum vs
*Zero level 3 Eldritch Techniques boosting its synergy with Arcanum

Now that we are spending a ton of XP next vote, it will be good to get this particular detail nailed down as our actual resulting power level depends a lot on it. It will basically determine how much XP we spend on Eldritch vs Arcanum - Eldritch without techniques is mostly a physical buff, so we may not actually want a higher level of Eldritch than Arcanum despite the efficiency bonus, since 1) Linear Fighters Quadratic Mages seems to apply at least partially and 2) Arcanum also improves the cap on our Connections Technique which is 75% discounted.

I am still concerned that Seraph will expose us to heightened influence from the Lamb, but it seems unlikely that a real money purchase would have an indirect effect that even moderately screws us over without an ominous warning attached.

EDIT: To be absolutely clear, was Dual Transcendence purchased with real money or merely approved by the donators? If in the latter case, this is an actual serious concern that we shouldn't discount, and maybe should pursue a write in instead.

 

[JOEbob]

we may not actually want a higher level of Eldritch than Arcanum despite the efficiency bonus, since 1) Linear Fighters Quadratic Mages seems to apply at least partially and 2) Arcanum also improves the cap on our Connections Technique which is 75% discounted.

Click to shrink...

I think we'd probably still want a higher level of Eldritch given 1, since it's still easier to acquire now than Arcanum will be. It'd also just straight up be a stronger Aspect with 4 level 3 techniques building off a higher base. Arcanum does raise the cap on that technique, but we'd probably still go for Arcanum 6 or so regardless thanks to the Exponential Cost System, making for a cap of at least 12 by this logic*; thus making for a price of probably over 25600 XP, after the discount, before we have to worry about the Connections cap.
(calculated as: the price for Connections level 2,*2^10, /4.)
A similar argument applies for Induction levels. Technique caps can only matter at all at very low levels, and for slower-scaling techniques
(if Connections is a slower-scaling technique, fair enough, but the prices of ??, 100, 250 look if anything faster-scaling. It can't be a linear technique because that'd require Connections 1 to cost -50 XP. I guess level 1 could be zero, then 100, 250, theoretically 450, for a cost increase increasing by 50/level? Then the level cap can matter.)
*I say 'by this logic', because Connections builds off our Role as Magician and our Architectural capabilities, not off our Arcanum specifically. Eldritch should increase its cap as well.

I am still concerned that Seraph will expose us to heightened influence from the Lamb, but it seems unlikely that a real money purchase would have an indirect effect that even moderately screws us over without an ominous warning attached.

Click to shrink...

...what? Why would Seraph expose us to more Lamb influence? the Lamb represents the antichrist side, yes, the evil-bad-undivine-demon position? If anything Seraph should be extra-resilient against it.

EDIT:

*Both characters will get Eldritch and Seraph

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure it's Solomon gets Eldritch5 and Penelope gets Seraph5, since Seraph doesn't fit our Role and Eldritch doesn't really fit Penelopes. Probably it's just a bit of unclear/inconsistent phrasing, similarly to how the Techniques specify 'each' but the XP does not.

 

[Rihaku]

Jesus is the Lamb of God. We have 1% of his attention because the Apostles interviewed us. The Antichrist didn't see Sol during Sol's vision, only Meta did, so we have no reason to have gotten his attention.

Whether we want a higher level of Eldritch is entirely dependent on Birdsie's answers to the questions above. We can evaluate a build with very high Eldritch in the context of Eldritch being a physical-only buff, but I simply would rather be a level 15 Sorcerer than a level 20 Brawler. There are more important things than XP efficiency, like actual effectiveness in a wide range of situations.

 

[JOEbob]

Jesus is the Lamb of God. We have 1% of his attention because the Apostles interviewed us. The Antichrist didn't see Sol during Sol's vision, only Meta did, so we have no reason to have gotten his attention.

Click to shrink...

You seem awfully confident that '*Attention of the Lamb', listed before Educator Favor, refers not to a known, literal lamb of great power who we definitely want to evade the notice of, but rather to an Enrolled mantling someone who metaphorically qualifies as a lamb who we maybe want to evade the notice of.
If it referred to Enrolled-Jesus, I'd expect more like 5% or 10%. 'Only other person in a category which contains the Metaphysician' is a Big Deal. 1% sounds more like 'bare minimum/at most the vaguest awareness', the sort of stat you have when you've not come to anyone's attention.
It also says 'and maintaining'. Enrolled-Jesus's attention on us shouldn't be 'maintaining'; it should be going up or expected to go up, as we grow in power and when the Apostles give their reports and such. Particularly, that character sheet was after Advanced Empowerment started (it has the base XP, just not the Leyline Absorption), so it's after an event which seems pretty likely to raise more attention on us.

Whether we want a higher level of Eldritch is entirely dependent on Birdsie's answers to the questions above. We can evaluate a build with very high Eldritch in the context of Eldritch being a physical-only buff, but I simply would rather be a level 15 Sorcerer than a level 20 Brawler. There are more important things than XP efficiency, like actual effectiveness in a wide range of situations.

Click to shrink...

We already know Eldritch isn't a physical-only buff? It does have spellcasting effectiveness, it's just not clear how much; probably between 0.25 and 0.5/level, without techniques, which we're also getting. I'd say in the worst case Eldritch 8 is +2 Arcanum; I could see an argument to drop that to 7 for Arcanum 7 and change, but it's a marginal additional improvement in exchange for 33% lower efficiency on that XP.

 

[Rihaku]

By the way, given the exact XP total on offer, there is the potential for a very numerically elegant build. Since we don't have confirmation it's possible yet, simply consider this an omake for now:

Thrice-Great

Trismegistus! three times greatest!
How thy name sublime
Has descended to this latest
Progeny of time!

From Dual Transcendence:
Arcanum 7 (15,500 XP)
Eldritch 7 (6,000 XP)
Seraph 7 (6,000 XP)
Total: Exactly 27,500 XP

From Baseline XP:
Hermes 3 (1,500 XP)

We would get three level 7 Aspects, making us the greatest member of the class three times over, while also having three levels in the Aspect literally named Hermes. And Hermes Trismegistus, author of the Emerald Tablet and progenitor of esoteric alchemy, is in many ways the iconic Magician, often considered the first true Magician - first, as the Magician is first in the Tarot Deck...

@_brightwing

There is probably significant Architectural synergy within Seraph as well - a Seraph, residing at the highest levels of Creation's ladder, would naturally have a broader view of Adam Kadmon than a mortal. An Eldritch being, star-spawn of the Outer Horrors, would yield its own alien perspective simultaneously.

Given this numeric confluence and the associated Aspects, we could potentially develop a 'Thrice-Great' Combination Technique that synthesizes the insights of Angel (Seraph), Man (Arcanum) and Beast (Eldritch) through the lens of the Architecture (Divinity) for purposes of Destroying (Hermes) the ordained fate which has caged Solomon all his life.

The magnum opus of alchemy, that traditional practice from which western magecraft springs, is the Philosopher's Stone - also known as Rubedo, the Crimson.

Crimson, like the Symbiote Carnage.

As above, so below.

 

[JOEbob]

Very elegant and kabbalistic, yes. I'd spend our Baseline XP differently(or rather, spend more of it- we have 1855 normal XP, so after Hermes 3 we could also get Sanctum 1 and Comfort's Embrace (Sanctumized) for 350 more with 5 XP left), but otherwise if it was possible (which it probably isn't.) it would be a good enough build to be an acceptable choice for numerology.
(though I'd still non-numerologically go for Arcanum 6 and put the proceeds in Eldritch or Seraph in that scenario. Probably more Seraph, assuming it had comparable Arcanum synergy to Eldritch, out of preference. I don't think the bonus level in Arcanum would yield benefits equal to the missing XP before we without-it would get enough XP to correct the imbalance.)

 

[Tyrant_Rayne]

From Dual Transcendence:
Arcanum 7 (15,500 XP)
Eldritch 7 (6,000 XP)
Seraph 7 (6,000 XP)
Total: Exactly 27,500 XP

Click to shrink...

It's 27,500 exp each.

I asked the same question on Discord and Birdsie confirmed it for me.

 

[Rihaku]

It's 27,500 exp each.

Click to shrink...

Right, I'm saying this would be a cool way for Sol to spend his XP from Dual Transcendence. We can't control what Penny does with her XP.

 

[Tyrant_Rayne]

Right, I'm saying this would be a cool way for Sol to spend his XP from Dual Transcendence. We can't control what Penny does with her XP.

Click to shrink...

Ah okay I think I see the mistake.

Sol doesn't get Seraph.

Birdsie just grouped everything together so that he wouldn't have to write separate blurbs for both Sol and Penny.

Our Aspects that we can spend on are the ones listed in the Character sheet. Nothing more.

 

[Rihaku]

Ah okay I think I see the mistake.

Sol doesn't get Seraph.

Birdsie just grouped everything together so that he wouldn't have to write separate blurbs for both Sol and Penny.

Our Aspects that we can spend on are the ones listed in the Character sheet. Nothing more.

Click to shrink...

That's possible, but directly contradicts the final version posted in the thread, which clearly states:

"[ ] Dual Immersion [30 Will, 12 Credit] ...

Both Solomon and Penelope benefit from the following:
...

*Gain Aspect: Eldritch (Level 5) and Aspect: Seraph (Level 5) immediately.
*Discount Level 6 of both 75%.
*Develop four Level 3 Techniques for both Aspects, each..."

We cannot develop four level 3 Techniques for both Aspects, each - unless we each get both Aspects.

 

[GenericName]

Yeah no lol we don't get access to seraph or Penelope's roles what the hell. Why in the world would we have access to that? This fear mongering about how having an aspect related to divine justice will make Penelope conceptually weak to the lamb is really a bit ridiculous. She is not an angel, she's the tarot card of justice where one of her themes is the divine righteous justice of an angel. Remember that the way powers develop is that you have to argue them with the educator. The lamb would have had to argue control over angels, and that argument would have to extend to a role completely separate but with an aspect connected to that. It's so unlikely that it just seems like pointless fear mongering.

Eldritch was not said to be a physical only buff, it just doesn't boost our spellcasting AS MUCH as arcanum. It's buffs are more spread out, but the Symbiote is explicitly called out as a spellcasting booster, and with techniques that can be amplified.

 

[Naan]

[X] Plan Wallet
-[X] Dual Immersion [30 Will, 12 Credit]
-[X] Eat a coffee jello. This is the situation where it would probably be a good reward for a job well done.
[X] Dual Immersion [30 Will, 12 Credit]
[X] Eat Coffee Jello
-[X] Lament for all the Coffee Jello you have devoured in your mad pursuit for power.

 

[Andre Chaos]

People get drunk with power so quickly it seems...

 

[Mr.Norm]

[X] Plan Wallet

I am drunk with power. I'm wasted on sweet sweet strength. I blacked out from a exp overdose and woke up to half of north America gone. I'm currently in OP rehab for my addiction. I just got my 13 months sober pin from godlikepoweraholics anonymous. Oh shit I've relapsed super hard and the other half of north America is gone.

 

[Pyrurge]

[X] Plan Wallet

 

[Birdsie]

*Both characters will get Eldritch and Seraph
*The Techniques (8 total) are split in this way: 4 for Eldritch, 4 for Seraph
*Penelope total Social Link becomes ++++++ as a result of this

Click to shrink...

No; Solomon gets Eldritch, Penny gets Seraph. Both of you get 4 Techniques for your respective Aspects.

Can you also answer, with as much specificity as possible, how well Eldritch stacks with Arcanum in these two scenarios:

*Four level 3 Eldritch Techniques boosting its synergy with Arcanum vs
*Zero level 3 Eldritch Techniques boosting its synergy with Arcanum

Click to shrink...

Pretty well for the above, compared to the below.

 

[Rihaku]

Pretty well for the above, compared to the below.

Click to shrink...

Okay, I'll try to pose this in a way that gets us the info needed for meaningful build decisions while minimizing workload for you. My present understanding is this:

*Eldritch at baseline does not grant any effective Arcanum levels no matter how much we scale it
*Eldritch with a few Techniques does not grant any effective Arcanum levels but does raise our mana pool significantly
*Eldritch with numerous Techniques focused on spellcasting does grant effective Arcanum levels but to an unspecified degree. This may or may not scale with further Eldritch levels.

What would really help with build design and variety is a comparison of just these scenarios:

*Case 1: In the specific case where we have Eldritch 7, Arcanum 7 and 4 techniques devoted to the goal of "improve our effective Arcanum level via Eldritch," what is our effective Arcanum level? I know Techniques vary greatly but let's just assume Sol has the best four Techniques for that specific goal, all at level 3.
*Case 2: As above, but we have Eldritch 8, Arcanum 6.
*Case 3: Eldritch 8, Arcanum 6, and 0 Spellcasting Techniques

Of course Eldritch does plenty besides buffing Arcanum, but this is the specific detail we're really trying to pin down. We will most likely be choosing from the above three builds so a specific comparison with precise numbers would be maximally helpful!

My intuition given your prior responses is that, in Case 1, we will probably get something like +2.1 effective Arcanum Levels and +750% Mana Pool from Eldritch 7 and its four Techniques, for a total Arcanum Level of 9. Case 2 would grant maybe +2.4 Arcanum Levels and +1000% Mana Pool instead, for a total Arcanum Level of 8.4. Case 3 would basically grant +0 effective Arcanum Levels.

If this intuition is more or less correct, you can just confirm that instead of answering in detail.

Others have advanced a more optimistic view that Eldritch by itself grants about +.25 Arcanum per level, with Techniques maybe amplifying that to +.5 Arcanum per level, so we can expect a total Arcanum Level of ~11 if we take four spellcasting Techniques.

If instead their intuition is more or less correct, you can just confirm that instead of answering in detail.

 

[SMBlade]

So let's labor under the assumption that we'll be getting the SC to get Dual Immersion - my question for the thread is this: should we attach any words/speech to Wallet? Do we want to emphasize Sol just not wanting all the limelight? Do we consider Penny a friend? Is it just so we can divert god with incredible speed?

 

[Rihaku]

I think we just let Sol be himself rather than specifying a motivation for Dual Transcendence.

Narratively, it's nice that Sol's Role means we won't outscale the setting even if he becomes incredibly powerful early, since the King of Magi spends most of his time in his tower surveying the tapestry of creation rather than intervening directly with fire and thunder. Rather than playing the CYOA, he'll be the ROB giving out shinies - or the power in the shadows whose long-term plans ensnare all creation!

Penny, on the other hand, will likely make a huge immediate impact by aggressively and proactively using her power to enforce her vision of Justice, unless we make a deliberate effort to rein her in. Given she is a decent person that probably won't be necessary, but I imagine we will see the atmosphere and circumstances of the class shift significantly due to her actions. Leveling Truthseeker almost invariably places her on a collision course with the bullies, who will promptly be stomped.