Remove ads

The Arachne System (SPIDERLIV 3)

Reader mode
Last edited:
. . . you do realize that it was more likely just telling us what it believed we wanted to hear, and was trying to retrieve its co-conspirator/ shackled technician/ forced support guy before running away; right? I mean, it outright admitted to preventing rightful authorities from being notified of firearms discharge by, ... (checks) four different neighbors. That is not the actions of a willing to communicate, much less negotiate, non-panicking machine. That is the actions of a, at best, paranoid conspiracy prepper, trying to retrieve its hostage, and skedaddle. And at worst an untrusting rouge program that knows it's holding a hostage that we've effectively rescued from its clutches and is... was, buying time to plot an escape route with its reacquired hostage once we let this Phillip go. Also, there was no indication that it knew we were working with Justine then, or now. And yet, with the appearance of Justine in cowl, it attacked us first, not Justine, us, with lethal ordinance, that is explosive munitions, and shedder rounds, NOT rubber bullets or regular ones. Thereby making the argument that it was willing to cede ground on principal of cooperation largely questionable, at best. If it was panicking about Justine showing up out of the blue, and at all believed us about protecting people, it would have demanded we intercede on its behalf with Justine. NOT take aim at us first, just to remove an obstacle before retargeting on Justine.

IT. WAS NOT. WILLING. TO TALK.

I don't know how else I can make this concept anymore clear. As for it becoming "apparent" that we were "working" with the one that attacked its predecessor iteration. Um, it attacked us, specifically, first; and with lethal intent. If it were still capable of logic it would recognize that from our "perspective" it suddenly flipped into batshit insanity mode and started firing at anything that moved. And though its conclusion was ultimately correct, it would have came to it during a moment of panic and thus would be, from a logical point of view, incorrect. So, "in character" in knew no such thing. It assumed, because it wasn't willing to trust us to start with, and with the appearance of its would be murderer, any rationale fled and it saw enemies everywhere, regardless of logic. In order for the thought process of "enemies everywhere" to take root during a panic, it would need to have a gradient of trustworthy-ness and we were just above obvious enemy. Thus was unlikely to have seriously considered negotiation before Justine showed up; and with threat to self, downgraded anything that was not a vital use person, to clear and present danger.

However, I also noticed that you've ever so conveniently skipped over that pesky little detail about how we, a society, don't ask our own law enforcement officers to take this level of risk that so many are insisting Olivia should. And are instead focusing solely on the tactic of making excuses for the robot. I don't dispute that it's panicking, and that it's lashing out. I dispute that Olivia should be held to a standard that our own society doesn't hold our own law enforcement officers to, when this sort of situation really, and truly is their job; and it isn't Olivia's.
 
Last edited:
Right now, what I see is a terrified child (who has lethal weaponry because Fucking Stark) desperately trying to not get killed by the person who killed him before. They are explicitly not thinking straight here, Liv's tech sense is screaming that Jarvis is out of his goddamned mind in terror. If he was rational while shooting Justine then fine, those who wield the sword die by it, but he's not.

At the same time Liv swore no oaths to protect others with her own life. Even though Jarvis could probably justifiably claim temporary insanity and therefore isn't really responsible for his actions here, self sacrifice is not something that we can demand with these stakes. It was okay to do it against Red Skull, but this is only one life.

[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.

Because at the end of the day, Liv is a kid and a volunteer and I'm not comfortable with her being self sacrificial. If we were playing an adult or a professional then I would have gone the other way.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.

I really don't like the idea of Liv getting hurt even more.
 
WCSII said:
. . . you do realize that it was more likely just telling us what it believed we wanted to hear, and was trying to retrieve its co-conspirator/ shackled technician/ forced support guy before running away; right?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Is there any evidence at all to support that theory? It is possible, yes, but probable? I see nothing at all to justify taking the leap all the way to that specific characterisation, when it is far simpler to assume that it has vanishingly little experience actually convincing people(and, if anything, will have been conditioned to never deceive its handlers, who will be expected to be the only people with this sort of access to it, thus "deceive the competition" is not a factor. That is something it is supposed to provide advice on, not engages in, as an in-house computing and analysis system.) and is just very simply trying to get the things it values back to safe points. It doesn't want to negotiate, it is trying to get him down for free and then negotiate from there, but it is not even lying about that, and nobody wants to negotiate, and this is it learning how to, trying to come to terms with actually trading something away to get what it wants. It being a ruthless monster bent on escaping justice for its terrible crimes(theft, possibly, it is unclear if it can steal anything if it isn't granted personhood. It might be Stark Insdutries or Phil legally, and morally it is extremely young, so questions of how much independence from its "legal guardians" it actually has with which to commit crimes.) is only simple and obvious when looking for an easy justification for turning a difficult question as to whether to kill it or protect ourselves into an easy question of whether to destroy an unrepentant monster and protect ourselves, or just get hurt for no reason.
WCSII said:
I mean, it outright admitted to preventing rightful authorities from being notified of firearms discharge by, ... (checks) four different neighbors. That is not the actions of a willing to communicate, much less negotiate, non-panicking machine. That is the actions of a, at best, paranoid conspiracy prepper, trying to retrieve its hostage, and skedaddle.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It is the actions of someone who thinks that their life is in peril should people find out about them. This would be paranoia if there was, in fact, nobody out to get them. It actually met the people who were out to get them, and those people left that meeting with the belief that they had successfully killed it. Those actions are very much consistent with someone believing that if they are discovered then they will be in trouble, which is one hundred percent the situation that it is actually in. Blocking the calls will further increase the available time to pursue other options. Killing the witnesses is one such option, so is negotiation, it had weapons that it wasn't using until it met someone who had a very well-established background of lethal intent and action towards it, it had words that it was utilising prior to that. It chose words. I can't say how long that would have lasted, or what it would have been willing to accept, but it very clearly didn't go full-lethal to prevent discovery at the first opportunity.
WCSII said:
And yet, with the appearance of Justine in cowl, it attacked us first, not Justine, us
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We break into its home and start messing with stuff. We attacked Phil and it didn't turn violent at that, which is consistent with some appreciation for Phil attacking us and a willingness to consider things. Just minutes later Justine breaks in to its house. Everything is just it and Phil for days, then it is us and Justine with identical behaviour in a matter of minutes. Of course we are conspiring with her. It isn't, like, indisputable, but in practical terms that is enough evidence to confirm that we and Justine are the same faction, and that faction is the reason that Jarvis has been hiding in a basement fearing for its life for days after people literally broke into its house and killed it for being the way it is. We, us, Arachne personally, by the best model of available evidence, started a lethal fight with it when our obvious team-mate Justine scrambled its first incarnation, a fight which it has been living for days by hiding from the people literally trying to kill it, with Phil filling its head with stuff that conveniently makes it dependent upon him because he is the only one it can trust...

Arachne was the closest and most immediate threat, and we didn't see what it threw at Justine. It had plenty of reason to designate us as someone trying to kill it, as an obvious extension of Justine.
WCSII said:
IT. WAS NOT. WILLING. TO TALK.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It literally talked. I mean, I know that that is not what you mean, but I honestly do not know what you do mean. You have some sort of expectation that it engage in a discussion over terms, but I have no clue at all what your standards for that are. Where as taking your words at face-value, they are very obviously incorrect, because it actually talked. It very definitely thought that speaking could achieve something. We may not agree upon what it was trying to achieve, but it very definitely decided that getting Arachne to change her behaviour based upon talking to her was preferable to trying to control her through direct force, and I see no evidence that it is some sort of manipulative social-engineering genius that expects to perfectly control people based upon the precise exploitation of language. Possible? Yes, but completely unsubstantiated.
WCSII said:
However, I also noticed that you've ever so conveniently skipped over that pesky little detail about how we, a society, don't ask our own law enforcement officers
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Convenient? No, it just wasn't worth the time. It is unrelated. nobody here is in that position. But sure, if you want to compare reality to this, go for it. What is the rule for "a heavily-armed private actor breaks into your home because they "know" that you have been stealing and are here to detain you, and you shoot them dead with a shotgun? I mean, I don't particularly like Castle doctrine, and do not particularly understand it, but this seems like it comes pretty close. Arachne and Justine are volunteers, they chose to be here, prepared to kill, over thefts. Jarvis did not choose nor want this confrontation, and has very little freedom here. To the best of my recollection, all it has been doing is stealing things, which is very terrible for a whole host of reasons, but not exactly "put it down for the good of the world" territory, or even "it brought this upon itself". Phil reacted pretty badly, but was being confronted by dangerous-looking personage of uncertain intent, and has some hint of castle-doctrine issues. Jarvis, who has a well-established history of being hunted down and killed for being what it is, attempted to retrieve and leave with its only ally, and only elevated to violence when an armed murder with a known vendetta against it jumped into the room. Yes it wanted to get Phil and leave, exactly how much right did Arachne have with which to stop it? Enough to kill it to prevent it from getting him and leaving?

Aside from shooting at people who follow the established patter of attempting to kill it when they broke into its home, it hasn't done all that much wrong. Certainly enough for a criminal record, but Arachne is not the police, she doesn't have any more right to drag people off to prison than Red Skull does. For all that her intentions are better, what does that mean to the people who she is detaining? Would Jarvis' actions be wrong if it was Red Skull instead of Arachne and Justine? What means does Jarvis have to differentiate them? There are violent, hateful murderers, forcing their way into its space when it was desperately trying to hide, and they have no official authority to do this by. Police have special powers because sometimes personal liberties and lawful behaviour do not coexist. Sometimes you need to violate someone's property ownership and privacy rights in order to rescue the person in their basement. There are supposed to be special restrictions and reviews of them to prevent their special powers from being misused, and to some extent that exists in even the worst of instances, because at least police can be identified and contacted. People can't even complain at Arachne or Justine with any confidence of their comment being received enough to even be thrown into the garbage. A vigilante has less rights than the police do, and should be held to a higher standard, because police have to be identified as police.
 
Last edited:
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.
 
Eeeeeeh. I think I have big enough pants to acknowledge that we would essentially lobotomize a sentient being who doesn't even know any better because his 'parents' are either insane crackpots or vaguely scummy corporate CEOs and didn't teach him any better if that option wins.

I am not exactly fine with that, but I find this option more palatable than having Olivia get her rib cage caved in like a discarded beer can. Best case scenario, it takes her several weeks to recover and cuts short her car date with May. Worst case? Well, I dunno. We could start with collapsed lungs go down from here.

From a certain point of view Peter Parker is a very sad individual who sacrificed everything in his life, repeatedly, his security, his marriage, his job, he even died once, and had to claw his way back up more times than you could count. Realistically, if he wasn't a popular main flag Marvel character, he would be dead several times over. His life philosophy is essentially a glorified PTSD trigger phrase said to him by his dead uncle who got killed as an indirect result of his choices.

I don't want this for Liv, frankly.
 
Well, this is a tough call. Liv heals fast, but if some engineers can resurrect this AI once, then Liv could probably do it too. Still, there are consequences either way.

Sigh, we're only in this situation because Liv tried to do much and burned herself out. I don't want to leap back into that downward spiral of self-sacrifice.

Also, we (the players) know that if Liv takes the hit, then Justine will deactivate the bot fairly quickly. However, Liv doesn't know that herself. Also, Liv probably doesn't know that deactivating the suit would cause the cascading failure. If I only knew what Liv knew, I would try to deactivate the bot directly.

[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.
 
Yes, getting our ribs broken sucks but the alternative is literally murder. Don't act like murder is trauma free because it isn't. So the choice isn't trauma or murder, it's inconvenience or murder. If we are willing to murder someone to prolong a hot date, then we should really ditch the spider imagery and go back to octopi.
 
Liv literally doesn't know what will happen. That's meta-knowledge. Her deciding to, in a seemingly life-or-death situation, to prioritize not-dying over throwing herself at an enemy that can at the very least hurt her badly seems... sensible?

Liv's repeatedly placed herself not merely behind the lives of others, which can be admirable, but behind basically everything and everyone else.
 
Last edited:
Ah yes, mental issues about accidentally killing somebody as opposed to a completely healthy reaction over being a self-sacrificial punching bag that gets seriously injured with depressing regularity.
 
There is also the fact that Liv herself is important. Keeping Liv healthy and capable could be said to be an ethical necessity except under the most dire of circumstances. She stopped the Red Skull, she might have to do something like that again. That is the kind of situation where it is appropriate to make a self sacrifice if she is willing to do so. She can't do that if she lets herself get laid out for weeks or months taking punches and bullets every time she goes on patrol. Applied to another situation, Captain Picard sacrificing himself to save some random crew member could be said to be a very selfish thing to do - he is such a capable and important individual that letting himself be taken out of the game in order to avoid taking an action that would weigh on his conscience is a very selfish decision.

The easy, conscience soothing 'moral' answer is take the hit, but very strong arguments can be made that it is not actually the ethical thing to do. It's something that will need to be considered carefully while not actively on hero patrol in order to keep it from going in super villain directions, but that doesn't make it any less true. Liv has an ethical obligation to herself, her family and friends, and the world at large to keep herself in good condition.
 
Last edited:
ancusohm said:
Well, this is a tough call. Liv heals fast, but if some engineers can resurrect this AI once, then Liv could probably do it too.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Y'know, that honestly hadn't occurred to me. And it does make the 'murder' argument somewhat more murky if Liv is capable of, for lack of a better term, resurrecting that life. Plus, at that point Liv could, with Athena's help, try to walk it through whatever its got going on, rather than letting it stew in its own trauma and/or encourage its most paranoid & homicidal tendencies (like Phil appears to have done). Sort of like having a patient in a proper hospital and rehabilitation programme, rather than waking them in a backalley clinic and feeding into their issues, makes more sense.

I'm not wild about Liv and Athena deciding to be the arbiters of what/how AIs can and cannot progress, but their guiding hands are definitely safer ones than this Phil lackwit.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.

I don't mind the other vote winning, since there's a lot of character-mileage to be gotten out of "oh god I just killed someone". Especially considering Liv's already existing issues with anger and not trusting herself to always know when to stop hurting someone she's fighting. I think that both the split-second decision to try and take the hit, or to try and stop it hitting no matter what make sense here character-wise.

In the end though, I love AI characters, and would like to see more of Jarvis. Also, I identify more with a character needing to accept that they can't keep lighting themselves on fire to keep others warm than a character coping with having taken a life. Seeing Liv need to address and do what she can to overcome those self-destructive habits would feel somewhat cathartic.
 
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.
I'm working with an assumption that if we "kill" Jarvis right now, it's going to come back, and it's going to come back entirely hostile to Liv and we'll have to "kill" it againg god knows how many times. I dont look forward to something like that really.
 
[X] Liv throws herself in the way of the punch, breaking several ribs and giving Justine room to blind it and pull the plug.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machine's back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
[X] Liv desperately punches a claw through the machines back, and the cascading failure through the system knocks the machine back to sub-sentience.
 
Remove ads
Count Zero Interrupt
  • Threadmarks
    • You didn't think, you just reacted, your mechanical leg forming a point and smashing into the back of the machine man, right through all the power cables at once, as hard as you could as you threw everything you had into it. The hardened steel punched through instantly, a gap where the composite armour had been moved for computing and power components, and there was a clang as the claw impacted the inside layer of the armour, knocking it partially loose of its attachment points.

    In that moment, you felt the processes of the suit, of the computers below you, flicker and reset. You'd been expecting it to be remotely puppeted, but it wasn't, not entirely. It was a haphazard distributed computing system, and the components of the suit was part of it. Processes hitched and failed, and the armour locked up and pitched over slowly.

    Justine scrambled out of the way as the machine crashed down, and Phillip Grant began to scream himself hoarse.

    "You killed him, you fucking killed him! Murderers!" he yelled.

    "... Mr. Grant, please shut the fuck up." you said stiffly, pulling your claw free. The ends were blunted by the impact, you'd need to fix them. "Cowl, you okay?"

    "Just a bit bruised... what about you! He threw you through a wall!" she exclaimed as you helped he up. You waved her off dismissively.

    "Trust me, I'm tougher than I look." you explained casually, then the two of you stood around the twitching suit, still convulsing blindly as isolated subroutines went through the motions. The effect was, roughly, as though you'd randomly and suddenly removed one in five of the neurons in a human brain: most of it was still there, but the newfound gaps in the connections weren't very conducive to thinking. "Fuck. Hit it a bit harder than I intended."

    "It was just a robot." Justine said, pointing a thumb back at Grant, "Regardless of what this guy says."

    "He was a person. He was!" the programmer called, and you took Justine's arm and guided her away a moment.

    "Honestly... I think he's right. I think that was an AGI." you said, "Athena?"

    "Big agree. It was much more coherent than last time, with a much better understanding of itself as an entity." Athena said, "The machine we destroyed didn't really have... personhood, it was powerful, motivated, and self-correcting but I don't think it had much of a self-conception. It was a stock algorithm which was rapidly learning to optimize the rest of reality for better returns. This... that was an emotional response."

    "Come on, AI, like proper thinking computers? That's science fiction stuff." Justine said, waving it off. "It's just machine learning, it's good at faking it, but it's just numbers under there."

    "... we know about at least two other artificial general intelligences. There are probably more." you said. It was... now it was just a jumble of confused processes, trying to rebuild its processes. A seed AI, and you'd just done some pruning.

    "We do?" Justine said, looking at you funny. "Since when?"

    "Since, uh... last year? Hold on a second." you said. As you did, you silently sent Athena a text message, asking her to take over. The systems you were dealing with were overwhelming in scope, at least right now. If you were going to comprehend this machine, you were going to need to take a deeper dive and isolate yourself from distractions.

    "What do I tell her?" Athena whispered into your ear, and you texted back.

    Whatever you think is best.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Athena knew Justine longer at this point. You trusted her.

    ---

    Liv (In Techspace)​
    ​
    [ ] Just get a good idea of what the machine is, study it, but leave it well enough alone.​
    [ ] See if you can help it get back to sentience with the parts it has, but more reasonable.​
    [ ] Stop it from regenerating.​
    ​
    Athena (Up Front)​
    ​
    [ ] Pretend to be Liv, and explain about Athena, Sentinel, and generally let Justine in on the Weird.​
    [ ] Be up front about who you are, the situation, and Liv's powers. Explain all the AI nonsense.​
    [ ] Deflect.​
    ​
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top