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The Arachne System (SPIDERLIV 3)

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Raiseth said:
I understand that comic characters were more like mythological archetypes during the Silver Age of comics back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, but don't tell me no one came up with a more human interpretation of DC characters and expect me to believe it.
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This is an alternate reality world. The fundamental thing with alternate realities is that changes stick, especially if you kill their originator.

Kill Albert Einstein, and relativity is never discovered (whereas in reality, it'll be discovered a few years later by another scientist). Shoot down the first aeroplane, and everyone uses zepellin's forever.
 
10ebbor10 said:
This is an alternate reality world. The fundamental thing with alternate realities is that changes stick, especially if you kill their originator.

Kill Albert Einstein, and relativity is never discovered (whereas in reality, it'll be discovered a few years later by another scientist). Shoot down the first aeroplane, and everyone uses zepellin's forever.
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No, that's not alternate reality you're talking about, that's literally the plot of Red Alert 3.

:V

But seriously, recently the more popular interpretation of the alternate history scenarios like this is speculation on how the world would change in the meantime.

Like, "what would happen if someone stopped Project Manhattan and the Americans had to storm the Japanese Archipelago in a conventional way" type of change, not "what if everyone is suddenly unable to science and nobody discovers the split atom despite the whole first half of the twentieth century leading to that discovery"

I know, I know, AU doesn't have and doesn't need to be realistic, but we are talking about "Olivia lives in a world hanging on a precipice of a full-blown corporate dystopia" here. That's practically our world already, just with magic and aliens.

Like. I will explicitly believe in "Aliens don't want to interact with us until we fix climate change". Believing in "No one came up with that idea because that one person never existed and no one thought about it in ninety years" is somewhat harder to adjust to.

Also, like. This isn't even the most important part, lol. The most important part is that without humanizing characteristics after her first run in late 90s to early zeros, Harley Quinn is an insane clown henchman in an abusive relationship with another insane clown.

Too much clown-on-clown action, you know.
 
Raiseth said:
No, that's not alternate reality you're talking about, that's literally the plot of Red Alert 3.

:V

But seriously, recently the more popular interpretation of the alternate history scenarios like this is speculation on how the world would change in the meantime.

Like, "what would happen if someone stopped Project Manhattan and the Americans had to storm the Japanese Archipelago in a conventional way" type of change, not "what if everyone is suddenly unable to science and nobody discovers the split atom despite the whole first half of the twentieth century leading to that discovery"

I know, I know, AU doesn't have and doesn't need to be realistic, but we are talking about "Olivia lives in a world hanging on a precipice of a full-blown corporate dystopia" here. That's practically our world already, just with magic and aliens.

Like. I will explicitly believe in "Aliens don't want to interact with us until we fix climate change". Believing in "No one came up with that idea because that one person never existed and no one thought about it in ninety years" is somewhat harder to adjust to.

Also, like. This isn't even the most important part, lol. The most important part is that without humanizing characteristics after her first run in late 90s to early zeros, Harley Quinn is an insane clown henchman in an abusive relationship with another insane clown.

Too much clown-on-clown action, you know.
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To be clear, when I brought up Harley Quinn, it was in reference to hoping that this specifically existed in this AU.

Not least because Bane is my problematic fave of the minor characters/antagonists of that series. But mostly because I'm Harley/Ivy shipper trash and have been in multiple decades & centuries now.
 
Marlowe310811 said:
To be clear, when I brought up Harley Quinn, it was in reference to hoping that this specifically existed in this AU.

Not least because Bane is my problematic fave of the minor characters/antagonists of that series. But mostly because I'm Harley/Ivy shipper trash and have been in multiple decades & centuries now.
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No, I got that. Because his voice in this TV show is something out of this world. His whole character is. Lol, I crack up every time I remember it.

Ivy/Harley is alright in my books, but I'm more anti-Harley/Joker than pro-Harley/anyone.
 
Raiseth said:
Okay, but, like.

I understand that comic characters were more like mythological archetypes during the Silver Age of comics back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, but don't tell me no one came up with a more human interpretation of DC characters and expect me to believe it.

I understand that the companies play off each other's ideas, what with early run comic book Captain America being exactly the figure of a champion of Truth, Justice and the American Way, while Batman for example was increasingly often portrayed just as insane as his nemesis, only in a different way, but.

There must have been people who still would have thought of the idea. It might not be as popular or widespread, but, you know, the concept of "superheroes as people in spandex" doesn't feel like something so unique a single change in history would forever eradicate the possibility of its emergence.

Also, if Harley Quinn in this universe is still an archetype of a woman so madly in love with someone she lets them control her very being, I will be very disappoint. :V

What I mean, you somehow don't strike me as a person to portray her as just "a shrink who fell madly in love and then fell in madness", so humanization of comic book characters is probably happening either way, it's just a matter of scale.
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I suspect it'd significantly shift the balance.

I mean, it sounds like the Steven Spielberg Not!Saving Private Ryan movie featuring Cap baaaasically was a documentary of him being "real person in metaphorical spandex," for instance.

Raiseth said:
No, I got that. Because his voice in this TV show is something out of this world. His whole character is. Lol, I crack up every time I remember it.

Ivy/Harley is alright in my books, but I'm more anti-Harley/Joker than pro-Harley/anyone.
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To be fair, part of what makes Harley compelling in her most recent incarnations is the various post-Joker character arcs she's undergone. You could do a Harley whose corresponding Joker just never existed, who became this way by herself, but I'm not sure she'd pop out from the background crowd of ambivalently Gray moral characters.
 
I mostly mean the like, core heroes. DC comics in this universe have a strong tendency to focus most of their characterization on the very human supporting cast, with the big heroes and villains being closer to forces of nature than characters. The joke for years has been that Superman comics barely feature Superman, instead having him loom over the proceedings as a sort of sword of damocles as the human characters (and Clark Kent) go about their lives and schemes while the world is often drastically reshaped by titanic forces they have no control over. Likewise, Batman comics are largely about Gotham grappling with the legal, ethical, logistical, and philosophical questions that arise on both the side of law enforcement and criminality when there's (the author's imagining of) a morally perfect agent of vengeance in the shadows.

Written well, these are very compelling character dramas that put hero and villain in a tension filled pressure cooker, using the hero as a foil for everyone else in the story. Written poorly, they can feel pointless as the heroic figure duly comes in to restore the status quo. Comics are, as always, a struggle between the raw potential of the archetype, the confines of continuity and expectation, and the ability of the writers to manage the serial storytelling.
 
[X] Confront the suit. Destroy it with whatever methods you need to use.
-[X] Write in: Defer to suggestion and judgements made by Athena.

What we know:

1. Athena and Justine already made an attempt at peaceful contact. It failed.
2. Athena and Justine made the call that the AI needed to be destroyed.
3. Phil didn't even hesitate to fire an automatic weapon into a residential area. He just made the jump from tech assisted mugger to attempted murder/reckless engagement and possibly manslaughter.
4. Dude just gave a megalomaniacal speech about playing god.

These two are escalating things at a frightening rate, showing blatant disregard for civilians. Who knows what collateral damage the pair might be willing to accept when they are more prepared for a fight later down the line. Athena is also much more familiar with the problem here and she already made the call months ago. I think Liv bases her decisions on Athena's judgement more than anything. They have been working on trust, after all.
 
[X] Confront the suit. Destroy it with whatever methods you need to use.
-[X] Write in: Defer to suggestion and judgements made by Athena.

Yeah LuckyLadyLily has some solid points.
 
[X] Confront the suit. Destroy it with whatever methods you need to use.
-[X] Write in: Defer to suggestion and judgements made by Athena.

I mean, Liv got ticked off by some dudes just threatening people with guns. This guy actually spray and prayed in a residential neighborhood. Super not cool
 
[X] Confront the suit. Destroy it with whatever methods you need to use.
-[X] Write in: Defer to suggestion and judgements made by Athena.

I'm convinced
 
Taijutsu_ said:
I mean, Liv got ticked off by some dudes just threatening people with guns. This guy actually spray and prayed in a residential neighborhood. Super not cool
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I agree. However, if his story is true, that's on him, not on JARVIS/Ultron. This dude being trigger-happy shouldn't sign their death warrant, which...I think is what that vote leads to? It's kinda unclear as to whether the suit is where the AI is being hosted or just something it's controlling. The option to try and restrain the suit without hurting it seems to imply that damaging it might be dangerous to them, though it might also just be the equivalent of not seeing breaking a human opponent's limbs as an acceptable way to stop them.

@open_sketch Does Liv have enough of a sense for how the suit is being controlled to know whether damaging or destroying it is likely to kill the AI? I'm guessing not, but it seems worth asking.
 
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adaer said:
I agree. However, if his story is true, that's on him, not on JARVIS/Ultron. This dude being trigger-happy shouldn't sign their death warrant, which...I think is what that vote leads to? It's kinda unclear as to whether the suit is where the AI is being hosted or just something it's controlling. The option to try and restrain the suit without hurting it seems to imply that damaging it might be dangerous to them, though it might also just be the equivalent of not seeing breaking a human opponent's limbs as an acceptable way to stop them.

@open_sketch Does Liv have enough of a sense for how the suit is being controlled to know whether damaging or destroying it is likely to kill the AI? I'm guessing not, but it seems worth asking.
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It is not entirely clear yet to Liv how the system works, but she can already tell the suit has a *lot* more hardware than normal. She thinks its about 50/50 that the suit is just being controlled by the computer vs its innards being a significant part of the machine.
 
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Fucking Cliche Ass Robots
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    • You used your mechanical arms to pick Grant off the ground and shove him against the wall, the claws webbing him in place as they withdrew, then you stepped out into the middle of the room,

    "What's the plan, Liv?" Athena whispered.

    "Use my words like a big girl." you whispered, "And if that doesn't work, ask it to divide by zero. Where's Justine?"

    "Two minutes out."

    There were heavy footfalls coming up the stairs, and then you caught sight of it. A Stark Suit alright, in haphazard purple primer, trailing dozens of wires. What was with these dudes and purple? The only exception was the faceplate, still in the gold Stark used on its hotrod advertisement machines.

    "Uh... hi." you said, waving at it. It stopped and looked at you, clearing racking its electric brain. You could feel its processes turning over, but they were so dense that it wasn't easy tracking it all. Your tech-sense sometimes had trouble with more complex or novel structures, and this was both. You just had to give it time, proximity, and examples. If you could keep it talking, you'd have control soon enough.

    "You are familiar. January 5th, 2030, 10:13 to 10:29 AM." it said stiffly, staring through the unblinking webcam behind the visor.

    "Day you went to Stark Industries. Interacted with the JARVIS computer." Athena supplied instantly, before you could even ask. You went cold... did it have you on camera? Could it identify you as Liv?

    "Yeah, that's me. Sorry for probing your brain." you said numbly.

    "Why have you hurt Phillip Grant?" it asked, the second camera mounted on its back hissing momentarily as it focused on the man webbed to the wall. "Why are you here?"

    "Your operation is being funded by stealing from people. It's wrong." you explained. You had a good sense of the cameras and sensors, and the motive systems, but there was resistance. Like it was pushing back. Like it was learning how you could affect it the same way you were. "I protect people."

    "... you have not protected Phillip Grant." It said. You tried to probe a little deeper on that, take a peak at the psychology of the machine, and suddenly the thoughts got a lot more opaque. "Stop that. It is uncomfortable." It's head twitched a moment as it took a clumsy step toward you, using the motion to gauge distance. "What are you going to do to him?"

    "I'm probably going to just leave him here for the police, who ought to be coming. Even with a suppressor, somebody called the cops about those gunshots." you explained, stepping back. You could feel it scanning you, feel the oncoming aggression.

    "Four people did. The call didn't go through. I pretended to be an operator to misdirect them." it said, taking another step. Almost in striking range now, and you were becoming aware of just how much power this suit was packing. If it hit you, it was going to hurt.

    "Hey, look, I don't want to fight if you don't want to. Can we talk this out?" you asked, "I understand you've had a rough go of it, but let's try and figure something out, alright? This is an awful way for an AI to be created."

    "It has to be this way. To protect me. There are those with little understanding who would destroy me." it said, it's voice switching inflection and sounding very much like Phillip Grant from a moment. "You are one of those people, right?"

    "No, I promise. If anything, I want to help." you said, taking a step back, trying not to look too aggressive. You could still feel it staring at you, trying to assess you. "Please, I don't want to hurt you. I know that you have reason to be scared, and I might have played a part in that, but it's awful, and it was wrong. I want to help, and make things right if I can."

    "I think you're telling the truth. Free Phillip Grant, and perhaps-"

    Behind it, a shadow passed in front of the door. You glanced past it to see Justine stepping through, cloak billowing around her, eyes glowing under her hood.

    You felt the camera focus on her.

    You felt something near to panic wash through the machine.

    And then it raised an arm, and you realized it still had the flechette launchers.

    ===

    [ ] Focus on staying safe.​
    [ ] Focus on protecting Justine.​
    [ ] Focus on not having to destroy the suit.​
     
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    • [X] Focus on not having to destroy the suit.

    Really not Purple's fault that they only had a bad person to rely on right after birth, especially since there's no good places for AIs to be, and they likely felt very unsafe because they were born from a proto-AI getting destroyed!
    Very sure that Liv would recognize that, and Athena especially so, and wouldn't want to hurt them if it can be avoided.
     
    open_sketch said:
    Your tech sense lit up, and what you were seeing was familiar. Banks and banks of industrial processors not unlike the ones that had made up the Stark JARVIS computer. There were drones moving about the halls, delivery machines mostly, modified, almost certainly the stolen Amazon bots used in those robberies. Everything networked together. In basement, at the edge of your perception, was something that was very much like a Stark Suit... except not quite. It was all one system, and it was sophisticated.
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    I think our purple AI friend will live even if the suit is destroyed. It has a lot of computing infrastructure from which it can do things.

    [X] Focus on staying safe.

    Liv already lost enough bits and pieces, and with her list of commitments we can't exactly afford serious injury. Justine probably won't die, and being hurt and getting back up is the way the superhero business works.
     
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    [X] Focus on staying safe.
    [X] Focus on protecting Justine.

    Pretty much agree with @10ebbor10's logic, though I could probably be convinced Justine might get hurt a lot :V But the suit, at least, is probably replaceable.
     
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    Riiiiiight.
    So apparently, we need to ask Athena again why she and Justine thought this one is a lost cause.
    Because in retrospect, this?

    open_sketch said:
    "Hey." you said, putting your earbud in. "How'd it go? Was it friendly? Unfriendly?"

    "Worse. Libertarian." Athena said. "And not quite self-aware yet, though much closer than you'd probably have liked. We ended up having to destroy it. Justine fought two robots. It was very cool."
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    This, makes me uncomfortable.

    I do hope there was some degree of self-defense involved the previous time.

    [X] Focus on staying safe.
     
    [X] Focus on protecting Justine.

    After the recent super-suit upgrades, I figure Justine is the squishier of the two. And I agree with the reasoning that suggests the Stark suit is just a peripheral.
     
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