Besides, what is Ashy supposed to do with all these labyrinths in her barrier if she doesn't eat the witches? The witches may fight to defend and expand their territory, but they can't do that if they're eaten. Even if Sayaka kills the witches all by herself, they can't demanifest, and we don't know if they'll eventually revive if they're left alone for too long. With the implausible exception of a really nice witch who wouldn't cause Ashy any problems at all, subsumption is the only practical option.
Subsumption seems to be the only Solution, short of giving the full Grief Seed to Kyubey.
But Charlotte's Grief Seed had to come from somewhere so we have a good Idea what Kyubey is doing with Grief Seeds.
I'm curious if subsuming a Grief Seed gives Ashy something different than subsuming a Witch.
The Fact that there is an "In Surgery" Sign around seems to imply that the Grief Seed is closer to Nagisa as a Magical Girl than to Charlotte as a Witch.
It's something from her Life before she became a Witch, instead of more psychedelic Witch Stuff.
It's interesting that different labyrinths warp in different ways, though.
I suspect Barriers are Representations of their Witches Insanity. They all look and behave differently because of the Differences between the Witches and their Traumas.
The circular Set Up of Charlottes Barrier could be because of how Nagisa was healed by becoming a Magical Girl and left the Hospital, but turned into a Witch because her Mother died in the Hospital.
Her Life as a Magical Girl started and ended, probably, in the same Hospital.
In fairness, most magical girl powers don't seem to be particularly instinctual besides transforming and summoning a weapon. If they were easier to figure out, the survival rate would probably be higher for new contractees.
Actually, this part confused me, but I forgot to ask about it in my first comment. Sayaka used this attack before, it was during the latter half of her fight with Ashtaroth.
Still running, she forms another sword, grabs it with a wild fervor, and immediately flings it at you, the weapon spinning end over end rather than coming at you point-first as previous ones have. You lean away to avoid it, the furious throw thankfully not having been particularly well aimed-
The blade seems to come loose from its hilt mid-flight and promptly explodes in your face like an azure firework, the force of it catching you completely off guard and sending you reeling backwards, horribly off balance.
I could understand her forgetting she had the attack. It's been a very stressful time, what with it being her first day as a magic girl, getting eaten by a witch, having every nasty secret about magic girls shoved in her face, getting turned into more of a traditional witch's familiar then an actual witch familiar, yadda yadda. But I'd have thought once she was reminded of the switch she'd remember what it did. Most people make a point of remembering what makes something explode.
Actually, this part confused me, but I forgot to ask about it in my first comment. Sayaka used this attack before, it was during the latter half of her fight with Ashtaroth.
I could understand her forgetting she had the attack. It's been a very stressful time, what with it being her first day as a magic girl, getting eaten by a witch, having every nasty secret about magic girls shoved in her face, getting turned into a more of a traditional witch's familiar then an actual witch familiar, yadda yadda. But I'd have thought once she was reminded of the switch she'd remember what it did. Most people make a point of remembering what makes something explode.
Sayaka didn't actually hit the switch on purpose earlier- she grabbed it accidentally while in the process of throwing the sword, which is why the blade came loose mid-throw rather than in her hand. She had no idea what caused it and didn't really care at the time, so the fact that exploding is a built in function of her swords was still a surprise to her. Hard to know that without her viewpoint, I know. I suppose I could add an aside about it in this update somewhere to clarify that it wasn't just me being forgetful.
Description: _________________________________. Though she is capable of creating ____________ any dessert she desires, she is unable to make the cheese ____________, and her familiars are remarkably poor at obtaining it. One could easily _________________ a piece of cheese _________________________________________ all else.
This is very similar to the description on the wiki, but just different enough to stop me from figuring out exactly which words are meant to fit here, even though I have a pretty good idea what most of it means.
-Pyotr, whose duty is to search for cheese. Because their faces are eyeless stamps, they cannot truly see, and operate almost entirely by smell. As such, one shouldn't expect much from it.
-Polina, whose duty is to nurse the cheese. Since the witch so seldom acquires cheese, it is rare that they can perform their purpose. They instead spend much of their time looking after the Pyotr, who commonly hurt themselves charging blindly through the labyrinth.
This is a power Charlotte never showed off as a witch. Presumably, her single-minded obsession with tasting cheese prevented her from even considering using it.
I'm really hoping this is the magic Ashy will get by the end of this story arc.
"Eat this! My words, my gales, and all of my GIANT PASTRIES!"
We haven't seen Layer 4 yet. The simplest explanation is that Layer 4 will pop into existence when Charlotte finishes hatching. Perhaps labyrinths open up layer by layer before the witch hatches.
Well, that and whatever else is directly derived from the wish. But yeah, that's pretty much only the most basic magical girl stuff.
It would be amusing if there were multiple wish-granting entities in the PMMM world, especially if it was witches since Kyubey would have ended up creating his own competition.
You still haven't read Tart Magica, have you? I summon the essence of pout!
Like, he ends up having to barter with his targets and make a better deal than the witch of birthdays, or the witch of desires or what have you, in order to snag the contract. Though considering how good he is at making things sound good by way of tactful omission and subtle word choice while never actually lying, he'd likely end up dominating the market anyways.
Contracting magical girls doesn't need to be run like a business. That's just Kyubey's style. Corbeau tortured subordinates until they made a suitable wish.
That probably isn't an option. Ashy's barrier stops witches from demanifesting. That means the labyrinth stays open and no grief seed is released. Depending on how grief seeds work, you may or may not be able to harvest the grief seed by digging through the witch's corpse, but that's a lot of extra work.
I suspect Barriers are Representations of their Witches Insanity. They all look and behave differently because of the Differences between the Witches and their Traumas.
More than anything else, it is a representation of their individual nature and personal despair. Insanity is just a natural end result of despair and a fractured psyche.
The Fact that there is an "In Surgery" Sign around seems to imply that the Grief Seed is closer to Nagisa as a Magical Girl than to Charlotte as a Witch.
It's something from her Life before she became a Witch, instead of more psychedelic Witch Stuff.
Elements from the witch's life as a magical girl will in all likelihood bleed through into the labyrinth, familiars, and even the witch. The sign is basically just there to say that the grief seed is still incubating, but it's also thematic.
"In Surgery" or "In Operation" is the obviously intended translation into English, but the literal translation is "In the middle of (doing) hand technique". Japanese is weird.
But Question Marks are Shatterwords too! Ashy already keeps them around to Fight, so why not some Question Marks?
That would be cool, but this isn't the time or place. Ashy is saving her magic for an upcoming witch fight in a foreign labyrinth. If she wants to visibly express confusion, she can use illusions back at home.
"In Surgery" or "In Operation" is the obviously intended translation into English, but the literal translation is "In the middle of (doing) hand technique". Japanese is weird.
The circular Set Up of Charlottes Barrier could be because of how Nagisa was healed by becoming a Magical Girl and left the Hospital, but turned into a Witch because her Mother died in the Hospital.
Her Life as a Magical Girl started and ended, probably, in the same Hospital.
I think we never got her full Backstory. Anyway, she still would have started and ended her Life as a magical Girl inside the Hospital.
So the symbolism still fits.
Source:
labyrinth in the Official Guidebook says "It's really a delicious cheese cake. My dying mother wanted to eat it, but maybe I should have cured her disease instead. However, that surely wasn't appropriate."
A description in the Production Note reveals that Charlotte obtained "one single cheesecake" in strict accordance with her wish.
She didn't think the wish was realistic.
...now consider how her barrier went berserk shortly after Mami suggested Madoka wish for a cake
[X] Bring the seed out to where Saar was so it'll be out of it's element if it comes to a fight, attempt to negotiate with it even if it does while keeping it at bay somehow(Wind? Distractions?
Cheese?)
-[X] Send pets out to acquire cheese for bait, will probably be more successful than the mice-things as they can be instructed on store policy(can they fold themselves into counterfeit money if you can get those ones to obay?) and, you know, they can actually SEE.
-[X] Philosophize and speculate. This is in a way one of the most important decisions of the whole thing. Are you sure the thought process leading to considering subsumption as a good option with this witch is entirely clean? Even if it's not tainted by witchstincts that doesn't mean something similar didn't form your witchdom in the first place. Perhaps the idea of Subsumtion comes from the fear of things out of one's control, if one controls everything, is everything, then there's nothing that can take one by surprise, nothing to harm one, nothing to force one's hand, nothing to make one change, nothing to prove one wrong. It is possible to simply subsume the witch but doesn't make it the best option, sure it's the best in terms of immediate power and safety but however great one's influence there's always one point of weakness, the self. The witch will of course most likely be insane, violent and insanely violent but often more can be learned from great and notable failure than successes, of course some knowledge would come with subsumption but as behavior hasn't changed the other two times of subsumption one may infer that only concepts one is already capable of directly understanding are truly collected with all else being wiped clean by ignorant will. Growth can only come through change, power without the possibility of growth is useless. Of course this may be a bad idea, the witch may be too much to handle, perhaps nothing can be learned from it but it is still better to do the wrong thing for the right reasons than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons because circumstances change but ideals... also do, but less so, decisions have ways of sticking around, reoccurring whenever things even superficially match.
With what Ashtaroth knows so far it seems that witches arn't exactly nonsentient but rather in a a state of mind so far from what one thinks of as a healthy, stable, rational(can any human ever be considered to ever be sane or rational?), normal state of mind that it may as well be unrelated, the labyrinth is an extension of the warping of the mind. Saar for example as we now know is/was not simply a being of instinct, it was obsessed with flowers and it can be inferred an abstract idealization of it's homeland. It perpetually seeks to make it's environment into it's ideal but cannot succeed not only because it's ideal is not a coherent concept and it knows this on some level but also because it does not truly think it ever can but is practically incapable of acknowledging either fact. It destroys what it loves because that is how it views itself, so does it's allies that it's made as in the shape of it's thoughts of allies. It is a mental landscape that is not simply self destructive but more... self destructed, and very dangorus to be involved in as it hates everything that could be a threat to it's ideal, especially itself.
Should I make up witches and magical girls and suggest them?
that's a really good idea. take Charlotte seed to another part of the barrier, and instruct your familiar, I can't quite remember his name but the one who accidentally kidnapped hitomi, to go out and procure a few pounds of cheese as a peace offering
that's a really good idea. take Charlotte seed to another part of the barrier, and instruct your familiar, I can't quite remember his name but the one who accidentally kidnapped hitomi, to go out and procure a few pounds of cheese as a peace offering
Yep- in fact, for Charlotte's barrier I've thus referenced the episode, the PSP game, and the fan game. If that hadn't been enough, I'd have gone to the manga or checked if anything from Magia Record might have been useful. There's enough different incarnations of this particular labyrinth that it wasn't too hard to flesh out; what you see is mostly drawn from the anime, but there are small details from the PMMM portable and Grief Syndrome mixed in, as you noticed.
This is a power Charlotte never showed off as a witch. Presumably, her single-minded obsession with tasting cheese prevented her from even considering using it.
Feel free! Though I will note that I've already been getting fairly distracted with designing witches for later as is. In fact, I've got the art done for two of them already done, plus one of their familiars, and I really want to share... but we're not really near either of them in the story yet, so I can't. Plus one of them will probably take literal YEARS to get to. Ahhhhh, how do I satisfy my craving to show them off when it would result in spoilers for so far in advance?!
(Also, welcome to the thread!)
Oh, and the next update is already done. Someone give me a reason to post it early!
Seen it! Also all that does is make me want to go work on that "reincarnated as tiny monster" isekai thing I've been sitting on, so it's slightly counterproductive.
Well, it is a grief seed, so you suppose you can sort of just... pick it up and take it with you. Granted, you do actually want this seed to hatch, since the witch not being present renders both of the reasons you came here completely pointless, but you suppose there's no reason it can't emerge in a slightly less cramped space, where both you and Sayaka would have much more room to move if a fight breaks out. Which seems pretty likely, all told.
You summarize this for Sayaka as you sink about halfway into Tome, lessening your profile enough to let you approach the gate in person. The magical girl backs away to give you room to do so without comment, so presumably she has no major objections to this plan.
You realize something is wrong right around the moment you slip your ribbon past the bars. As the semi-transparent fabric of your arm wraps around the tiny object on the other side, a strange, inexplicable sensation hits you right about where your stalk meets Tome. Before you can do more than notice it, the sensation rapidly increases in strength, and something seems to hook itself to you, as if you've just been caught on the end of some sort of metaphysical fishing pole. What the...?
The hook suddenly jerks, hard. You flinch backwards, letting go of the seed and almost falling out of the air in surprise at the sudden pain. Ow! Why did-
The hook jerks again, even harder this time. What the hell, that hurts! Is the grief seed doing this? It must be, there's nothing else around that could be doing it, but-
The jerking turns into a constant tug, as though it's trying to reel you back in. You resist, but the seed's pull only seems to be growing stronger, even though you're no longer touching it. How is it- is it latched onto your magic? Is it trying to steal your magic?! No, not just your magic; you are magic, you're literally made of it, so if it manages to take that from you-!
You try and fail to back away as the pain redoubles, becoming a horrid, wrenching agony that would have you screaming were you physically capable of it. This is worse than when you felt Sayaka get stabbed in the eye, FAR worse, the seed is tugging at you, tearing at you, ripping at your very being, you have to get away, have TO-!
You shriek soundlessly and loudly crash to the floor as a haze of blackness yanks itself out of your body, streaming past the metal bars of the gate and into the glowing seed beyond. Squirming tendrils of clouded white energy emerge from the tiny object as you writhe in place, ribbons flailing and scraping at the walls in a desperate attempt to push or drag yourself away. Sayaka jumps backwards to avoid your wild thrashing, her face frozen in shock.
The sign above the gate flickers off as the grief seed seems to swell-
The torturous sensation blessedly ceases as the cave around you explodes into motion, colors and surfaces shifting as the tunnel expands into a large, circular arena. Walls like the interior of a five or six-story tall cake rise into place, large globules of chocolate and frosting slowly dripping down the sides. Icing covered in rainbow polka dots spreads across the softening ground, pierced in places by brightly-colored cake testers large enough for a person to stand on their heads. Additional oversized desserts spring into existence, doing little besides clutter up the floor, while numerous iterations of a transparent purple symbol start slowly circulating around the lower half of the room.
You take in approximately none of this, too busy trying to recover as you lie motionless on the rather sticky floor. You feel like your innards were just ripped out of you... which may not even be an entirely inappropriate comparison, all things considered.
"...are you still alive?"
You manage to bend your stalk back into an upright position, feeling almost too weak to do so. Sayaka is standing next to you, staring at your limp body with an unreadable expression.
<Yes... barely...> you manage to think at her, lacking the wherewithal to use her mental voice at the moment.
Sayaka doesn't seem terribly thrilled by that, but she's hardly your primary concern right now. Dragging yourself back out of Tome, which seems much more difficult than it was just a few minutes ago, you pause for a second to take stock of yourself.
The prognosis is... not good. You don't think your total capacity has changed, but your magic- no, your grief, it's always been grief- is the lowest it's been since you became a witch. Even after subsuming all those familiars, you doubt you could manage more than a few dozen shatterwords at the moment, all because that seed stole from you, took from you, seized from you what was rightfully yours-
"Hey!" Sayaka yells at you, pointing off to her right. "Snap out of it! Something's happening!"
You slowly rotate towards what Sayaka is gesturing at. Two ludicrously tall chairs face each other from opposing sides of an equally tall, but otherwise rather tiny circular table, the air around them sparkling like glitter. A large doll, vaguely reminiscent of the Pyotr and Polina with its round ears, pink dress, and target-like face, is sitting in the chair on the left. The other is empty — at least until the sparkles suddenly condense into a small, decorated box, which immediately begins rustling around as if something is trying to escape from inside.
Inevitably, the front of the box bursts open, crinkling like a candy wrapper as it disappears, and a small, plushie-like figure drops into the waiting chair.
The figure immediately slumps into the seat, looking just as inert and inanimate as the doll it's now facing.
But you know better.
"...is that... the witch...?" Sayaka asks doubtfully.
She is. Even if she doesn't look it, that little plush toy is most definitely Charlotte, the Witch of Sweets. You are certain of this on a very basic level, just as you're certain that part of the grief composing her right now is yours; she took it and you want it back-
The other witch's candy-shaped head turns towards you, breaking her facade of immobility. You sluggishly pull yourself back into the air, penning what few shatterwords you can into existence as you prepare to attack. Come here you little THIEF-!
Getting to her feet, the unassuming witch steps forward... and proceeds to immediately fall off her chair, landing flat on her face almost 20 feet below.
Your anger sputters at the almost slapstick-like moment. Um.
Charlotte pushes herself back up off the ground, seeming almost dizzy as she starts floppily moving towards you and Sayaka. She's not really walking so much as continually falling or tugging herself forward, as though her head is too heavy for her body to properly support.
This is... not what you expected...
As Charlotte slowly toddles up to you, you back away to the edge of the area, too uncertain to attack but too wary to let her get close. Sayaka doesn't follow you however, instead just staring at the slowly-approaching witch with an extremely confused expression.
<Sayaka, get away from her!> you warn once you realize she isn't moving.
Sayaka jolts, but Charlotte is already in front of her. The witch tilts her head up to stare at Sayaka's bewildered face, then... plops to the ground again, propping her head up against a giant waffle.
...this has to be some sort of trick. Between the size of her barrier, her massive amount of familiars, and what her unhatched seed just did to YOU, there's no way the witch herself is just some harmless plush doll. Surely...
Charlotte raises her arms up towards Sayaka, as though nonverbally asking the girl to either pick her up or hug her. Sayaka flinches away, and Charlotte droops, her tiny form looking roughly as threatening as a newborn kitten.
Almost unwillingly, your guard begins to lower. Maybe... maybe she really isn't dangerous? It would be a first, so far as you're aware, but you're living proof that exceptions in witch mentality are possible.
But you need... you need...
Charlotte wobbles to her feet again. The air in front of her shimmers, and a small tart topped with a generous mound of whipped cream suddenly pops into existence. Charlotte grabs it between her arms, then stumbles forward and raises it up towards Sayaka, who takes half a step forward before stopping herself.
<I wouldn't recommend eating that.> you advise.
"She's like... a little kid..." Sayaka mutters dazedly.
<Yes, but she's the Witch of Sweets; for all you know that tart could literally be deadly.>
Sayaka doesn't reply. After a moment, she cautiously approaches Charlotte's outstretched arms, crouches, and gently pushes the witch's offering back, slowly shaking her head in refusal. You personally wouldn't have dared get that close, but Charlotte takes this in stride by immediately moving to consume the sweet herself.
Her mouth doesn't open very wide, and she doesn't appear to have any teeth, so it seems as though it's going to be a rather drawn-out process.
You hold your ribbons to the top of Tome and keep your distance, not trusting yourself not to act if you don't. You should be happy about this — even if Charlotte does turn out to be dangerous, she's clearly not very aggressive, so it should be relatively easy to find out if she's sane and intelligent without risking being attacked in the process. Even if she's not, a seemingly completely non-malevolent witch is a serious anomaly, and definitely not something you'd want to kill without very good reason.
...and yet, despite that logic, you're having a hard time holding yourself back from doing exactly that. Something in you desperately wants back what the other witch took from you, a feeling only fueled by how incredibly vulnerable you feel right now. With so little energy left to defend yourself, you feel even less safe than when your arms were still trapped in Tome.
<...we need to check if she's sapient.> you tell Sayaka, trying to tamp down your desire to grab Charlotte by the neck and stuff her into Novella like an appetizer. <Try talking to her. See if she reacts.>
To your surprise, Sayaka doesn't question your request. She's acting kind of odd right now — you did plan on telling her you wanted to check if the witch was like you before giving her the go ahead to attack, but you didn't really picture her going along with it this easily, nor did you picture her being this remarkably unaggressive about it.
"H... hey." Sayaka says somewhat haltingly, trying to get the attention of the tiny witch. "Can you... understand me...?"
Charlotte continues to adorably, if largely ineffectually chomp at the tart she just made, showing no obvious comprehension of Sayaka's words.
<Unless she's deaf, that's probably a no.> you note. <…I'll try now.>
Taking the mental equivalent of a calming breath, you slowly re-approach the smaller witch. Even with your instincts screaming at you to reclaim what's yours, you feel obligated to at least attempt the same things you tried with Saar, and Sayaka can't do them, so you have no choice.
Forcing yourself to stay calm, you pen a brief message in Novella and swivel the resulting shatterwords in front of yourself. You look away immediately after, so as not to be tempted to throw them at their intended reader.
(CAN YOU READ THIS)
Through Sayaka, you see Charlotte turn her head to stare up at the runes. It's more of a response than talking got, but the other witch still gives no particular indication of understanding them. You mix the runes with a few more from your meager collection and rearrange them into the same message in Japanese, but the reaction, or lack thereof that you receive is no different.
You settle back down. Probably not intelligent then. Seeing as how nothing has yet incited Charlotte to attack however, you also can't really classify her as a threat. You still can't shake the feeling that she's not quite so harmless as she seems though... you suppose you if you really wanted, you could try preemptively attacking her to see if the other witch reveals any hidden abilities in the process. That seems rather counterproductive though, as if she is secretly powerful it would be unwise to intentionally antagonize her, and if she's truly harmless it would seem almost cruel instead.
Unless... seeming harmless IS one of her abilities? Sayaka has been acting sort of weirdly stunned ever since seeing Charlotte emerge, and even after absorbing so many of her familiars, you still know very little about the other witch's magic. Her innocent act could easily be a sort of hunting strategy, where she's just waiting for you to turn your backs to make her move.
This could be a horrible mistake...
[-] Attack Charlotte.
[-] Leave Charlotte be.
[-] Let Sayaka decide what to do.
[-] Write in. [-] TAKE IT BACK
ummm...... Nagisa/Charlotte has joined the party??????
I'm a bit confused, which is probably the intent?
I think shes harmless? as long as we don't attack her? I mean she never really attacks except in her worm form. and I don't really feel comfortable being the agressor here, plus she's offering us food, and something tells me she absorbed at least a little of our sanity/sentience when she took our grief?
I think we should take her with us? also get our butler to get some cheese for her,
If you really want, I created a random Witch some time ago Dorothy the Witch. She is rather intelligent, you can communicate with her but it is hard to understand her and she is easy to anger. She is also VERY common Witch due her Familiar being inconspicuous and their role to "be lost" often from their Labyrinth altogether. You can toy with the idea, Ashly, as a magical girl, already met and fought a version of her. It will be interesting to see, how her perspective of Dorothy changed when she too became a Witch.
