- Location
- Here
Canon Sayaka seemed to experience gemming as a discontinuity, so absence of a body would seem to result in loss of consciousness. Maybe there has to be a functioning brain to do the thinking?
Subsumption (PMMM Faux-Quest) (Witch MC)
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
That would make sense given that brains are in fact the meats where the thinking happens, though again the fact that a body that has begun rotting is still viable would suggest that the soul gem has a much broader definition of the term 'functioning brain' than a normal human does.
Ironically, would also explain why Witches are so totally broken and instinctual; I imagine the thinkmeats do not survive the Witch metamorphosis in good condition, if at all.
- Location
- Terra-Luna
The particulars of Sayaka's physical body (and whether or not it even counts as hers, for that matter) is certainly a peculiar point. I'm not sure how the detransformation might factor, though; true, she did go back to her mundane appearance, but the detransformation was performed for her, rather than of her own accord, so that isn't necessarily conclusive evidence that she can change states. I have to wonder if Sayaka might technically be a familiar now, actually, merely an odd one on account of the nature of the witch in question; it would lend some credence to the circumstances, given that Sayaka is still Sayaka despite lacking the soul that is Sayaka and seeming to sort of be an extension of the one who ate it. Regardless, whether or not Sayaka can effectively respawn isn't something terribly convenient to test, so we might just not know unless something rather unfortunate happens.
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
from the fact that the soujo sisters exist I think I can easily say "not important in the slightest" considering even if a magical girl looses her body entirely she can just grab someone elses and be on her way
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
so sayaka might be something analagous to a clara doll then? a familiar with a full personality and way stronger than normal familiars? that would be very interesting
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
I wondered the same thing, but it's ultimately semantics. What evidence we do have suggests even if she is a familiar, she'd be an extremely odd duck of a one. She doesn't make her own mini barrier, and most of the usual magic girl rules still apply to her. Just replace any instance of Soul Gem with Ashtaroth and you'll get the gist of it. The real differences seem to be that she can't witch out, and can be taken control of by Ash at any time. Otherwise this is Sayaka, and I don't think there'sany reason to split hairs over that unless we're getting existential.
Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
In practice the only functional difference between 'is Sayaka' and 'is a familiar that thinks its Sayaka' would be if something happened to cause Sayaka to learn that she's a 'fake', so to speak. Otherwise for basically all other practical purposes there isn't going to be any measurable difference between the two, the familiar would look, act and function like Sayaka because it thinks it is Sayaka.
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- Location
- Australia
I mean, it's going to be a trifle restrictive on poor Ashtaroth, who will essentially have to follow Sayaka around, hovering invisibly over her in her barrier in order for Sayaka to have a normal life. I suppose she doesn't really have anything better to do, but hopefully she doesn't make a habit of subsuming meguca or her schedule will get complicated very quickly.
[-] Go in after her. If you manage to catch up with Sayaka, you can be there to provide physical backup in case anything goes wrong, while staying out of her body.
[-] Go in after her. If you manage to catch up with Sayaka, you can be there to provide physical backup in case anything goes wrong, while staying out of her body.
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[X] Intervene only if necessary. You'll stop Sayaka from doing anything really reckless, but let her handle it herself otherwise.
A couple of things on the Sayaka situation:
-IIRC theres an interview which states that Puella Magi CAN in fact, operate as a soul gem alone. They just need to learn how, which requires a bit of a world shattering shock. And somehow have enough magic for it.
-Sayaka is less free than a familiar. Familiars can wander far away from the Witch or even become independent new Witches. Sayaka is more like an appendage.
A couple of things on the Sayaka situation:
-IIRC theres an interview which states that Puella Magi CAN in fact, operate as a soul gem alone. They just need to learn how, which requires a bit of a world shattering shock. And somehow have enough magic for it.
-Sayaka is less free than a familiar. Familiars can wander far away from the Witch or even become independent new Witches. Sayaka is more like an appendage.
[X] Intervene only if necessary. You'll stop Sayaka from doing anything really reckless, but let her handle it herself otherwise.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
They can however IIRC only do that if they grow to some significant size/power by familiar standards, and need to consume humans to do this.
Which makes this also semantics, since even if there was some possibility of Sayaka regaining her freedom (in the form of becoming an independent witch-ish being), it would likely require consumption of human lives/souls to accomplish, which neither Sayaka or us would ever allow to happen.
Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
While that'd make for a hilarious slice-of-life AU I'd absolutely read, I doubt following Sayaka's schedule is in the cards. For one, that'd involve bringing Ashtaroth to school everyday, and thus straight to what's most likely the lagrest gathering point for magic girls in the city. Which either works out to Ashtaroth subsuming those girls when they attack her, Sayaka dying if those girls kill Ash, or Sayaka having to fight them off whenever she goes. Plus one of those girls is Mami, a friend and mentor. Then you have to add in Homura and maybe Makoda. She's not going to want any of those thing to happen to them.
[-] Let Sayaka do her own thing. She's made it pretty clear she doesn't want you interfering, so... maybe this is fine after all...?
[-] Intervene only if necessary. You'll stop Sayaka from doing anything really reckless, but let her handle it herself otherwise.
One of those two. We don't really have to worry about her Body, given that she has healing Powers, unlimited Magic, and her Soul Gem is inside Novella.
Hell, she could throw around Swords as she did during our Fight without the Risk of running out of Magic, and then there is the Chance of Shemesh pulling a Batman.
This assumes she actually finds Charlotte or the Familiars care enough about her to fight her instead of her having an emotional Breakdown in a few Minutes.
If it comes to the worst we can make an Illusion of Cheese to distract Charlotte and her Familiars. Costly but possible.
@Flairina is there a Reason Ashy used Sayaka's Voice to talk instead of Telepathy or did she just forget?
[-] Intervene only if necessary. You'll stop Sayaka from doing anything really reckless, but let her handle it herself otherwise.
One of those two. We don't really have to worry about her Body, given that she has healing Powers, unlimited Magic, and her Soul Gem is inside Novella.
Hell, she could throw around Swords as she did during our Fight without the Risk of running out of Magic, and then there is the Chance of Shemesh pulling a Batman.
This assumes she actually finds Charlotte or the Familiars care enough about her to fight her instead of her having an emotional Breakdown in a few Minutes.
If it comes to the worst we can make an Illusion of Cheese to distract Charlotte and her Familiars. Costly but possible.
@Flairina is there a Reason Ashy used Sayaka's Voice to talk instead of Telepathy or did she just forget?
Wrong way round. Familiars only get to consume people if they wander off, otherwise the Witch gets it. Our familiar wandered off to do some UFO abduction
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
I mean you say this but I think Sayaka might be convinced that certain people are 'ok to take care of' in this matter.
...
I still be against it though so.
eh
- Location
- Somewhere up the tree
I have a bit of evidence that it is the real sayaka and not a familiar
it would go against the whole theme of subsumption. making a familiar with sayakas memories would go against the theme
[X] Go in after her. If you manage to catch up with Sayaka, you can be there to provide physical backup in case anything goes wrong, while staying out of her body.
Time to bond through beating others up!
Time to bond through beating others up!
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
Yes! It's back! I've got my fix! Let the dopamine flow!
I guess she's really desperate...
Also, what the fuck, Sayaka?! What did the poor mouse ever do to you? It just wanted cheese, and you slaughtered it! Not even out of a sense of justice, but in cold blood!
Second of all, why can't Ashy track Sayaka? Even if she has no idea where Sayaka is, can't she find out? Magic leaves traces, especially if it involves souls and other karmic weirdness. Ashy should be able to track Sayaka by following the magical trail she leaves behind, just like magical girls frequently do to find witches.
[X] Go in after her. If you manage to catch up with Sayaka, you can be there to provide physical backup in case anything goes wrong, while staying out of her body. Besides, how can you subsume the witch without being there in person?
[X] Let Sayaka do her own thing. She's made it pretty clear she doesn't want you interfering, so... maybe this is fine after all...?
I don't mind Ashy interfering in case something goes horribly wrong, but she should clearly avoid assuming direct control or butting in when Sayaka can handle things independently. If nothing goes wrong, Ashy can just jump in at the very end to subsume Charlotte and ferry Sayaka out of the labyrinth.
So in conclusion, Sayaka should be able to tank any and all of Charlotte's attacks, so long as it's not the KÄSE MOGU MOGU.
There are special cases like Shemesh and the Clara dolls, but that is reserved for powerful familiars that hold some very special meaning to the witch. The exception proves the rule.
I think Ashy effectively has a deliberately split personality, which Sayaka is now a part of. Now that Sayaka is subsumed but has her own individuality, this is the only logical conclusion. Familiars exist for their witches until they become witches themselves, but Sayaka is Sayaka and will always be Sayaka.
I suspect that exchange was inspired by this:
And I approve.
What is running through Sayaka's head right now? Why the skepticism? Does she not believe she could actually kill Ashy in her current condition, or is she just confused by Ashy's willingness to work together with magical girls as equals?
Not really, no. Ashy already tested the control range once, and confirmed that the range is either much larger for no reason or relative to the entire barrier. The latter possibility simply makes more sense.
My comedy senses are tingling!
There's the punchline! Sayaka is best Mouth of Sauron. :lol
Silly Sayaka! You can't escape possession by physically distancing yourself from the witch. You already know that only stops your body from working.
I guess she's really desperate...
What a waste of finely flavored diabeetus!
And Ashy's character flaw strikes again! Nothing a little empathy and forethought can't fix, but it's a serious problem.
N'awww... It's adorable!
Holy shit! Sayaka is now suffering the same grief spiral she experienced in canon timelines. I don't think she can really witch anymore, but this may still be magically significant somehow.
Also, what the fuck, Sayaka?! What did the poor mouse ever do to you? It just wanted cheese, and you slaughtered it! Not even out of a sense of justice, but in cold blood!
One of these words does not belong in that sentence. I'm guessing you changed the phrasing but forgot to finish halfway through.
Further evidence that Ashy is a Sauron expy. She is convinced that free will is a bad thing for other people to have, so she's slowly but surely degenerating into an evil overlord.
No, Ashy. In some cases, this might work, but this is not one of those times. Please just let Sayaka vent.
But Ashy, you already have Sayaka's soul. Whatever impurities her soul produces are just going to feed right back into you! Sayaka is almost invincible.
First of all, Nagisa was just a kid when she witched, and little kids generally have trouble navigating big facilities like hospitals. Also, the labyrinth must be a literal mouse maze, except without the delicious reward at the end. This makes a lot of sense to me.
Second of all, why can't Ashy track Sayaka? Even if she has no idea where Sayaka is, can't she find out? Magic leaves traces, especially if it involves souls and other karmic weirdness. Ashy should be able to track Sayaka by following the magical trail she leaves behind, just like magical girls frequently do to find witches.
[X] Go in after her. If you manage to catch up with Sayaka, you can be there to provide physical backup in case anything goes wrong, while staying out of her body. Besides, how can you subsume the witch without being there in person?
[X] Let Sayaka do her own thing. She's made it pretty clear she doesn't want you interfering, so... maybe this is fine after all...?
I don't mind Ashy interfering in case something goes horribly wrong, but she should clearly avoid assuming direct control or butting in when Sayaka can handle things independently. If nothing goes wrong, Ashy can just jump in at the very end to subsume Charlotte and ferry Sayaka out of the labyrinth.
It is grief spiral, and Sayaka's depression is proof of that. It's just not the same grief spiral as it always is in canon. The question is what will result from this, since I'm reasonably certain that Sayaka can't witch anymore, at least the way magical girls normally witch. Oktavia must have been conceived inside Ashy by now, but her form may be somewhat different and she may never actually hatch.
This will probably fail miserably, but I don't see why we shouldn't at least try. However, it would get in the way of letting Sayaka handle things by herself.
I might be misremembering, but didn't Ashy already explain everything she knows about the magical girl system? She dropped the lichbomb and the witchbomb, and she doesn't yet know how Kyubey benefits from the ritualized suffering of emotional beings.
Ashy has not been to Mitakihara before witching, so the chances of anyone here knowing her are slim, though it would be interesting if she just so happens to be tangentially related to a main character. Most people who knew Ashy should be in Sengeitsu.
Charlotte can't nom on Sayaka's soul gem because Ashy beat her to it. Sayaka should be able to recover from anything less than the total destruction of her body, and her soul will survive even if her body becomes unusable for whatever reason. However, Sayaka's body is probably her only body, and even if that's not the case, there's no way Ashy can reproduce fresh Sayaka clones ad infinitum.
So in conclusion, Sayaka should be able to tank any and all of Charlotte's attacks, so long as it's not the KÄSE MOGU MOGU.
Yes. This is a good idea. Unfortunately, Ashy towers over Sayaka, so staying hidden would be quite difficult...
I always assumed that the mind eventually loses its structure without the brain, but could otherwise work perfectly fine.
It certainly helps explain Ashy's amnesia, if nothing else.
Familiars generally don't have much individuality. They usually have personalities, but familiars of the same type are often so similar to each other that they share the exact same name and role. Even the Ummashtarts, who are supposed to be different from each other, are only truly unique in appearance and abilities, but lack any identity beyond just "a form the witch once had".
There are special cases like Shemesh and the Clara dolls, but that is reserved for powerful familiars that hold some very special meaning to the witch. The exception proves the rule.
I think Ashy effectively has a deliberately split personality, which Sayaka is now a part of. Now that Sayaka is subsumed but has her own individuality, this is the only logical conclusion. Familiars exist for their witches until they become witches themselves, but Sayaka is Sayaka and will always be Sayaka.
So the lichbomb is required, I suppose. As for the high magic cost, magical girls were never truly meant to operate without their body parts.
That's true. But do they need normal humans, or will magical girls or even witches do? In the end, it shouldn't matter what is eaten as long as it is a soul.
No, because any souls Sayaka eats would just be added to Ashy. Because Sayaka is now effectively Ashy.
Perhaps Sayaka could become an unusually powerful Ummashtart variant once Ashy is killed, eventually developing into a clone of Ashy. Now that would be an omake I'd love to read.
While school life would be difficult and dangerous for Ashy, she might be able to survive. She just has to handle the magical girls who attend.
- Kidnap Madoka and drop her off in a different city. Homura might not notice immediately because Ashy never did anything of the sort in any previous timelines. Then Homura will have to waste time finding and returning Madoka.
- Witchbomb Mami to either easily subsume her or drive her to despair (and then subsume her).
I'm very proud of myself for creating the "Shemesh is Batman" meme.
This is a great idea, and I'll definitely vote for it if we get the opportunity to make illusions in the near future.
Flairina
Least Omnipotent Goddess
- Location
- The next infinity over
That may be a touch too far. Berserker Sayaka was characterized less by her brutality and more by her completely ignoring attacks as they hit her and laughing manically about it, while being horribly upset about it afterwards. Won't say if you're necessarily right or wrong, but we haven't quite reached the point you're thinking yet if it's the former.
If it were you, would you risk testing it?
Ah, right... well, I sort of imagined the break being "finished" the second I got my other fic's latest chapter up, so it still feels like I dragged my feet on this despite not intending to.
Hehe, appreciated! Though, I'm honestly writing at an utterly glacial pace for the amount of time I have free. I'm so particular that I'll fuss over a single paragraph's word choice for an entire day instead of just moving on, which I really, really need to stop.
This immediately made me think of a "Midori Days" scenario with Sayaka and Ashtaroth, wherein subsuming Sayaka caused her to instead take the place of Ashtaroth's front right ribbon/hand.
...boy wouldn't that be awkward.
Since when has Ashtaroth used telepathy? She can hear Sayaka trying to use it, but she's yet to actually attempt to speak back the same way, sticking with shatterword rune arrangements and illusory words thus far.
(More on that either one or two updates from now.)
Well, logistically, there's the potential of that "trail", if it exists, being all sorts of obscured due to them being in the middle of a literal magic dimension. There's also the fact that Ashtaroth may not be able to use that ability, since magic is usually traced by way of one's soul gem, which is something she's sort of lacking at the moment.
More practically however: how large do you think the tunnel Sayaka ran into likely is?
Yep, Sayaka doesn't necessarily know everything, but Ashtaroth has already told her and Hitomi most of what she knows. Though, the fact that he's an alien has yet to be mentioned, for lack of meaningful reason to bring it up.
I would like to take this opportunity to note that I moved the "Bad End" from Saar's fight to the sidestory tab. Take from that what you may.
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Where was it before? Regular threadmarks, right?
hillo315
Intact but Tactless
- Location
- Somewhere. Somewhere else.
...This is a faux-quest because you knew the answer would be yes!
Ashy not using telepathy in place of walls of text is like a jedi not tapping into the Force because lightsabers
I sort of assumed that Ashy's barrier is now her equivalent of a soul gem. Yes, it's a magic dimension, but it's her magic dimension. But while it does make a sort of sense, this reasoning never felt entirely correct to me. *shrug*
I'm tired. I'll think on this more later.
[
] Toss shatterwords at the labyrinth entrance to widen the opening! What could go wrong?...But isn't it kind of obvious? :lol
Hm? Why would you-
Oh. Ohhhh. Ohhhhhhhhh! Okay. I see. Interest levels rising! This is going to be fun.
Huh, I thought the Conversation after Hitomi left was telepathic but Ashy's Part wasn't italicized.
That must have looked incredibly creepy from the Outside.
"Sayaka" starring at the Witch and holding a one-sided Conversation but the only audible Part sounded like something the Witch would say, coming from Sayaka...
Clearly, Telepathy is an elegant Form of Communication for a more civilized Age.
Just get a few Brandies and flush them out![