The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
What's the difference between these?
Strange Aeons: A 40k Xeno Governor Quest
- Thread starter Leon12431
- Start date
- Location
- USA
Meta Shields are more absolute basically. Gellar Fields on the planetary level more smooth things, they make warp stuff more challenging yes, but it's more of a gentle smoothing. In short a planetary gellar field will give Chaos a bit of a headache but its more to reduce the impact of more nebulous things like chaos corruption or daemon summoning than anything else.
Regional Meta Shields are basically absolute compared to planetary Gellar Fields, they cripple anything and everything metaphysical not given an exception. Not to the same level as personal Meta Shields, but far more potent than the Gellar Fields.
If the Gellar Field is sort of like taking a light paint over to the canvas of the world, the Meta Shield is splattering black paint over the canvas. Meta Shields cripple everything warp related, while Gellar Fields smooth things out so to speak and have higher effect vs Daemons in particular. Gellar Fields are good vs Daemons but don't really do great vs anything else, Meta Shields cripple everything warp related.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
Does this mean it would be wise to avoid the DAoT Ship fight, or are we stable enough for that?
Also, would it be wise to postpone major Martial actions another turn where possible?
- Location
- USA
Due to Atraxas having Broken already you are much more resistant to the effects of the combat blood rage, its part of what your Bo2 +50 applies to afterall.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
Is this still true?
Because, if so, I will have to reevaluate at least
Due to the sufficient bones event, whant kind of bones do the Exatari have?
Edit: Nevermind, saw the info post
Edit: Nevermind, saw the info post
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- Location
- USA
I have remembered the aspect of Exatari tech that makes it basically non degrading so discard the upkeep.
- Location
- Warsaw
@Leon12431
Are you going to keep doing the autosucceed for certain actions? The ones where the bonus makes it so we can't fail because it alone covers the dc?
Are you going to keep doing the autosucceed for certain actions? The ones where the bonus makes it so we can't fail because it alone covers the dc?
- Location
- USA
Yes, of course. Barring the ones where Atraxas is not active on them, due to critical fails for humans always causing massive problems. So it becomes basically a roll to test for critical fails in that case.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
@Leon12431
First of all, thank you so much for canceling the upkeep on Calc Hearts! Wow that spares me from a lot of plan-rebuilding.
Second of all, is there any non-internal way to get tons of Resources, quickly? I'm assuming "none that we can use," but if I'm wrong I'd be glad to hear it. Obviously not Exatari Favor or Mechanicus Favor - I've asked about both.
First of all, thank you so much for canceling the upkeep on Calc Hearts! Wow that spares me from a lot of plan-rebuilding.
Second of all, is there any non-internal way to get tons of Resources, quickly? I'm assuming "none that we can use," but if I'm wrong I'd be glad to hear it. Obviously not Exatari Favor or Mechanicus Favor - I've asked about both.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
@Leon12431, how expensive would funding an Explorator Fleet or founding a Rogue Trader House be?
- Location
- USA
You could try to reach out to the Mining Worlds and offer wealth for resources. Could reach out to the various worlds and offer to pay them in wealth for excess resources. Basically this is where Favor trading and Wealth is useful.
Not currently possible, you would need much higher authority to do that. Technically you can't found a Rogue Trader since they were all authorized by Emps in the Great Crusade and their warrants of trade are eternal, but that little rule has been sort of sidelined by now. You would need to send a petition to Terra or Mars to have one be made.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
And I assume stuff like "we promise to install regional anti-daemon/psyker fields around your capital in exchange for matching the resource investment required" (ie, we get 10k resources for every 10k project we do for them) would piss the AdMech off, even if we got it cleared as Totally Legit DAoT Gellar Tech(tm)?
And the same applies to giving a tech priest we like enough resources to start and Exploration?
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- Location
- USA
I will say that doing that is very difficult, Imperial worlds do not like what they see as infringement on their sovereignty. Erimyst is better about it, but that just means they will be polite when telling you to fuck off instead of declaring a blood feud with you for suggesting it. Generally, doing that means that the world that gets the stuff is now hosting a place that works under the rules/laws of the other world which causes problems.
Different legal regulations so to speak. Rogue Traders and their ad mech versions have very lax regulations, that would be more of a sponsored mission so to speak. It would be a single mission out and back, and it wouldn't be allowed to do things like use diplomacy at all. If you want xenotech under this form, then you better send an invasion force to rip the tech out of dead alien hands and prepare to burn their worlds to ash.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
I'm not sure I follow how constructing infrastructure for them infringes on their sovereignty. Is the issue that we would be maintaining it too? Would selling the designs to their local tech priests be a less onerous option, if effectively a three way trade (Planet gives us resources, we give AdMech Shiny Tech but only if AdMech actually Builds Shiny Tech for Planet)?
General thought was more to set them in a generally vague direction that just so happened to stumble upon actual STC locations (known by the Exatari) more often than usual, but not in an obvious "traveling business man" pattern. The political gains of this wouldn't really be valuable if it's all commissioned work, so it sounds like we probably need to get enough Mars favor for a Shogi Explorator Fleet charter.
- Location
- USA
Because 99.9% of the time it's not a matter of "If you give us X stuff we will build for you Y thing." Its "if you give us X stuff we will build for you and maintain it on your dime Y thing and that thing might not actually be useful for you and it might also be a foothold for a future invasion we might or might not do on you. Hope you feel like rolling those dice." Going through the Ad Mech is not really worth it since there is no way to actually enforce such a trade, so such things 99% of time is just a form of semi legal corruption to move funds around in bulk outside the general eye of the Inquisition if done smartly.
Ah, the Exatari dont tell Atraxas where the STCs are found but they give him the data. Second, Mars would never hand out that kind of authority to another Forge World unless it had enough political weight on the ad mech as a whole to make a nuisance of itself. So you would need to be in the Ryza bracket for Mars to be willing to fork over a charter.
The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
God damn it IoM. I'd recommend developing a Sanctic Discipline of contract binding, but they'd just get shot in the head even if Saint Celestine showed up to notarize every signing.
Not by default, but you did say we could get that info for free, just that it wouldn't be very useful. I was under the impression that all forge worlds were expected to ship out an Explorator Fleet every once in a while to support the Quest. But it sounds like it might be easier to just establish a Rogue Trader House with a couple detached Explorators, and presumably even that will require quite a bit of glory/greasing hands to accomplish.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
@Leon12431, would we be allowed to go into debt briefly on Exatari Favor? With a promise of "I'll have Nanoplague, Warp Sphere, and Study the Alloys done probably this turn but possibly next," to pay for it? We could sweeten the deal by promising to have Sincratus' Treatise On Warp Biology done next turns as well, and potentially even Study the Warp Drive (probably next turn, though it might take a turn extra). That should be enough to make up for a lot of Favor debt.
I'm looking at a possibility of collecting ~200 planets before the invaders arrive, that should work nicely if we get about 400 Calculation Hearts. Of course, this is a bold and somewhat extreme move - but incredibly potent, both pre- and post- incursion...
While giving loans to infiltrators is probably not standard practice, I'd guess that the fantastic insights that Atraxas has produced aren't standard practice either. Nor is having an infiltrator in charge of an Imperial System... About to be attacked by overwhelming opponents...
I'm looking at a possibility of collecting ~200 planets before the invaders arrive, that should work nicely if we get about 400 Calculation Hearts. Of course, this is a bold and somewhat extreme move - but incredibly potent, both pre- and post- incursion...
While giving loans to infiltrators is probably not standard practice, I'd guess that the fantastic insights that Atraxas has produced aren't standard practice either. Nor is having an infiltrator in charge of an Imperial System... About to be attacked by overwhelming opponents...
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Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
I'm guessing that we currently have 12 outposts and mining outposts, combined.
| Starting Planets | Upkeep | Extraction/Production | Net Profit | Resource Cost |
| 40 | 1000 | 1000 | 0 | 10000 |
| 64 | 933 | 1600 | 667 | 9500 |
| 128 | 856 | 3200 | 2344 | 9000 |
| 832 | -1 | 20800 | 20800 | 3500 |
Wow.
Now, of course, given the monumental Resource Cost, AND the fact that taking this Action eats the equivalent of 4 Planetary Acquisitions worth of planets (which I'm guessing is around 100ish - depending on Barges), we're probably going to be roughly halfway done before we want to take this.
Let us assume that, after Econ Studies this turn, each Planet will grant +50 Resources/turn net-profit. Let's guess that we have +22 Planets per Planetary Acquisition from Barges (2 basic Barges). Let's suppose that we have 400 Calculation Hearts, so we can 1-turn Stabilize Orbits.
Suppose we want a 2-turn repayment. That is, at the end of 2 turns, our net Resources will be equal to what they would have been if we had kept at the Planetary Acquisitions. Take into account turn-profit-update-rules... Then we have (NetProfit -ResourceCost)=(Income from 200 Planets). That is (NetProfit -ResourceCost)=10000. That is roughly (25p -(1000 -(77/64)p) -(10000 -(500/64)p))=10000. Which simplifies to 25p +((77+500)/64)p =21000, or p=~617 planets.
If we go for a 3-turn repayment, we get a significantly lower number. That is, (NetProfit*2 +ProfitFrom100PlanetsAcquiredNextTurn -ResourceCost)=2*(Income from 200 Planets). So (NetProfit*2 +2500 -ResourceCost)=20000, or (NetProfit*2 -ResourceCost)=17500. That is (2*(25p -(1000 -(77/64)p)) -(10000 -(500/64)p))=17500. Simplifying, (50 +154/64 +500/64)*p=28500, or p=~473 planets.
How about a 4-turn repayment? That is, (NetProfit*3 +3*ProfitFrom100Planets -ResourceCost)=3*(Income from 200 Planets). So (NetProfit*3 +7500 -ResourceCost)=30000, or (NetProfit*3 -ResourceCost)=22500. That is (3*(25p -(1000 -(77/64)p)) -(10000 -(500/64)p))=22500. Simplifying, (75 +231/64 +500/64)*p=35500, or p=~410 planets.
What's the calculation for a 4-turn repayment, if we had only 200 Calculation Hearts? (NetProfit*2 +ProfitFrom100Planets -ResourceCost)=(3+2)*(Income from 100 Planets). So (NetProfit*2 +2500 -ResourceCost)=25000. So (2*(25p -(1000 -(77/64)p)) -(10000 -(500/64)p))=22500. Which is (50 +154/64 +500/64)*p=34500. So p=~573 planets.
What's the calculation for a 6-turn repayment, if we had only 200 Calculation Hearts? (NetProfit*4 +(3+2+1)*ProfitFrom100Planets -ResourceCost)=(5+4)*(Income from 100 Planets). So (NetProfit*4 +6*2500 -ResourceCost)=45000. So (4*(25p -(1000 -(77/64)p)) -(10000 -(500/64)p))=30000. Which is (100 +308/64 +500/64)*p=44000. So p=~390 planets.
Different assumptions will produce different results, but it looks like - barring a very divergent setup - we want around 400-600 planets before trying to Align them. I think I'd suggest ~500.
One extra addendum: Try to get Divinity relatively early in this whole process.
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- Location
- USA
I am leery of giving the ability to go into Favor Debt, since that would allow for certain loops that could theoretically print favor or allow for the effective translation of favor in a way thats not meant to be doable.
For now consider Favor to not be possible to be indebted, maybe I will decide otherwise in the future.
@Robinton I am sorry, but could you explain your general calculations for the gravity barges/planet income value? Your equations have lost me somewhere along the line.
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
I'm assuming the table makes sense, at least? It's just the logical effects of "given that we get X number of planets first, here are the cost and maintenance - plus production-increase and net-profit - of stabilizing the orbits."
I am making one assumption in that table: I'm assuming that we have exactly 12 (one per planet) relevant stations at the current moment.
Then I'm running some calculations for, essentially, "given various assumptions, how many planets does it take to break-even in 2-or-3 turns." We know that Orbital Alignment gets cheaper and more rewarding the more planets we have; we know that planets don't get cheaper or more rewarding the more we've already acquired; so at what point do we make so many Resources from Orbital Alignment that we make up the effort and Resources spent performing Orbital Alignment in 1-2 turns after actually doing it?
One of my key assumptions is that we have 400 Calculation Hearts - which is almost certainly wrong (it'll be 200-300 or who-knows-maybe-500, depending on whether we get 1 bulk-Heart-batch or 2 before doing this). But it's still a good number for getting a feel for the problem.
At 400 Calculation Hearts, we can 1-turn-complete Orbital Alignment without any further assistance. But we can alternatively grab 4 batches of planets with the Planetary Barge.
If you're wanting to break even in 2 turns (1 spent on Orbital Alignment and 1 spent reaping the profits), then you have only 1 turn of profits. But you're only sacrificing 1 turn's worth of income from planets.
If you're wanting to break even in 3 turns (1 spent on Orbital Alignment and 2 spent reaping the profits), then you have 2 turns of profits (and the second such turn will have extra planets, assuming you put the Calc Hearts back on Planetary Acquisition). But you're effectively sacrificing 2 turns' worth of income from planets.
(Note to self: I now need to redo the second calculation. It's 2 turns sacrificed, not 3. Edit: updated.)
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Paradox of Omniscience
Robinton
Probably petting Schrödinger's cat
- Location
- Scientifically proving a miracle
The Paradox of Omniscience
"Enter, Adept Ran-Bethil," stated Archmagos Luraia Teral, back to the door, continuing to fiddle with bits of a design. 'Probability 65% and climbing; interesting…' "Your mentor asked me if I could answer your Question. State the Question."
Tech-Adept Artheda Ran-Bethil answered haltingly, but gaining surety as she spoke. "Omniscience, is a great goal of the Mechanicus. Yet, were one fully Omniscient, how would one ever choose? Would the bearer of this great and wondrous gift, not become utterly trapped? A puppet of their own gift? Unable to take any action save that which they already foreknow? I apologize greatly for my presumption, of course, and surely there is - there is an answer?" At the end, she again trailed off into uncertainty, and perhaps rightly so, for she knew full well her thoughts were borderline-heresy at best. However, since she was asking for correction, and speaking to one of the better Archmagi not the likes of Balkavus, and above all since this was Shogi (the forge/fortress planet where nobody wanted politics, and the Mechanicus had a very careful detente with orthodoxy), she was given an answer instead of a scolding.
"You have come to the right place. I have an answer, at least, to that ancient paradox. Indeed, it lies within my own specialty: Time. From black holes, we see clear physical proof that Time may be less absolute than we at first thought. Do you know what I mean?"
"You mean the way that, once you cross the event horizon, you will inevitably fall toward the singularity, but may go sideways in space or even forward and backward in time, while falling?"
Archmagos Luraia Teral mentally checked her current experiment's readings. 'Probability 83%.' Verbally, she stated, "Absolutely, young Adept! But much further thought has gone into the question of 'what if you were outside time altogether?'
"For this, for the matter of 'what if you stood outside time,' much like 'what if you were truly and fully Omniscient?' we exit the realm of testable hypotheses and science, and enter the realm of theory, logic, and (ultimately) philosophy. We can figure out, perhaps, how things are to work, but we can't actually experience them for ourselves, or not yet at any rate. Much good work is done in philosophy, and it must inevitably carry the foundations of science. But different proofs are relevant here, and we cannot test them the way we are so fond of.
"Now for this, the best sages of yore thought long and hard, and concluded that if you were outside time altogether, or more accurately perhaps, transcending time altogether, you would effectively exist in a single eternal moment. A neverending now.
"Scholars claim this reference may predate the origin of human spaceflight, no less. But I digress.
"If you were omniscient, you would see reality as it truly is, not the extremely limited point of view of any ordinary human, even the greatest of Mechanicus. You would see all of time, yet transcend it. And in so doing, you would step out of this notion of the present and past and future, and you would see that in the end, all of reality was only a single moment, infinite and yet unified. And in that moment you would make your choices. And yet, the rest of us would see your choices happening one by one, spread out before us. Some of them predicated on actions others had yet to take. Plenty of them predicated on seeming-chance. But, if we could see beyond the illusions, we would know that all of them were chosen at the same time, insofar as time applies, which is obviously not at all."
The young Adept thought long and hard, and ultimately nodded and said, "That makes sense. Or, at least, it seems a plausible enough explanation. If you were wrong, of course, omniscience would be rather horrifying indeed, as it would erase your free will altogether, or any illusion thereof."
Her temporary mentor nodded. "That is, indeed, correct. I do not think we are truly in any danger of that, of course, on several levels, not least of which that I doubt any of us will come anywhere close to omniscience."
The Adept laughed a little. "There is that. Though…" and she hesitated for a moment, but Teral had been accepting enough, "I am not certain what our governor would think of your explanation. Would you, by any chance, explain it to him? I would like to observe his reaction."
'Probability 98%.' "Oh! Was it he that pointed you to the Paradox of Omniscience? I'm not surprised that one such as Atraxas would have thought of it. As I said before, it is an old paradox indeed! Not often talked about, but old. Believe me, Ran-Bethil, this paradox has occurred to many of the greatest Mechanicus throughout history. Even I, who am far from the greatest Archmagos - even considering only our planet - considered it once upon a time, and was frustrated for many years before I found the - or possibly a - solution."
"A solution?"
"It might not be the only one. I have never heard of another, but I have heard of two answers to the Paradox of Movement, sometimes known as the Paradox of Rogal Dorn and the Tortoise…"
"Yes?"
'Probability 99%. Section A 28%. Section B 95%. Section C 1%. Section D…' After a long moment of consideration, Archmagos Luraia Teral sent over the titles of three books. "Study these. Come back to me in a year, and tell me the answers, and the questions, that you have found. And I, with any luck, may get to tell you our governor's reaction."
"Thank you, Archmagos Teral!" Tech-Adept Artheda Ran-Bethil bowed low, honoring the giver of knowledge and wisdom, then left the room - with perhaps a touch too much speed to truly be proper. Not that many cared - this was Shogi, not Mars.
'Probability 100%.' "Ah," Archmagos Luraia Teral, "Another successful experiment. It won't work for any and every circumstance, but I do like to have some idea how well the conversation is likely to go. Now to spend three days checking the log-files to see if I missed anything…"
The lights blinked unexpectedly.
"Ah. Make that three weeks. How utterly unforeseeable. Well, least said soonest mended." And the Archmagos got back to work.
"Enter, Adept Ran-Bethil," stated Archmagos Luraia Teral, back to the door, continuing to fiddle with bits of a design. 'Probability 65% and climbing; interesting…' "Your mentor asked me if I could answer your Question. State the Question."
Tech-Adept Artheda Ran-Bethil answered haltingly, but gaining surety as she spoke. "Omniscience, is a great goal of the Mechanicus. Yet, were one fully Omniscient, how would one ever choose? Would the bearer of this great and wondrous gift, not become utterly trapped? A puppet of their own gift? Unable to take any action save that which they already foreknow? I apologize greatly for my presumption, of course, and surely there is - there is an answer?" At the end, she again trailed off into uncertainty, and perhaps rightly so, for she knew full well her thoughts were borderline-heresy at best. However, since she was asking for correction, and speaking to one of the better Archmagi not the likes of Balkavus, and above all since this was Shogi (the forge/fortress planet where nobody wanted politics, and the Mechanicus had a very careful detente with orthodoxy), she was given an answer instead of a scolding.
"You have come to the right place. I have an answer, at least, to that ancient paradox. Indeed, it lies within my own specialty: Time. From black holes, we see clear physical proof that Time may be less absolute than we at first thought. Do you know what I mean?"
"You mean the way that, once you cross the event horizon, you will inevitably fall toward the singularity, but may go sideways in space or even forward and backward in time, while falling?"
Archmagos Luraia Teral mentally checked her current experiment's readings. 'Probability 83%.' Verbally, she stated, "Absolutely, young Adept! But much further thought has gone into the question of 'what if you were outside time altogether?'
"For this, for the matter of 'what if you stood outside time,' much like 'what if you were truly and fully Omniscient?' we exit the realm of testable hypotheses and science, and enter the realm of theory, logic, and (ultimately) philosophy. We can figure out, perhaps, how things are to work, but we can't actually experience them for ourselves, or not yet at any rate. Much good work is done in philosophy, and it must inevitably carry the foundations of science. But different proofs are relevant here, and we cannot test them the way we are so fond of.
"Now for this, the best sages of yore thought long and hard, and concluded that if you were outside time altogether, or more accurately perhaps, transcending time altogether, you would effectively exist in a single eternal moment. A neverending now.
"Scholars claim this reference may predate the origin of human spaceflight, no less. But I digress.
"If you were omniscient, you would see reality as it truly is, not the extremely limited point of view of any ordinary human, even the greatest of Mechanicus. You would see all of time, yet transcend it. And in so doing, you would step out of this notion of the present and past and future, and you would see that in the end, all of reality was only a single moment, infinite and yet unified. And in that moment you would make your choices. And yet, the rest of us would see your choices happening one by one, spread out before us. Some of them predicated on actions others had yet to take. Plenty of them predicated on seeming-chance. But, if we could see beyond the illusions, we would know that all of them were chosen at the same time, insofar as time applies, which is obviously not at all."
The young Adept thought long and hard, and ultimately nodded and said, "That makes sense. Or, at least, it seems a plausible enough explanation. If you were wrong, of course, omniscience would be rather horrifying indeed, as it would erase your free will altogether, or any illusion thereof."
Her temporary mentor nodded. "That is, indeed, correct. I do not think we are truly in any danger of that, of course, on several levels, not least of which that I doubt any of us will come anywhere close to omniscience."
The Adept laughed a little. "There is that. Though…" and she hesitated for a moment, but Teral had been accepting enough, "I am not certain what our governor would think of your explanation. Would you, by any chance, explain it to him? I would like to observe his reaction."
'Probability 98%.' "Oh! Was it he that pointed you to the Paradox of Omniscience? I'm not surprised that one such as Atraxas would have thought of it. As I said before, it is an old paradox indeed! Not often talked about, but old. Believe me, Ran-Bethil, this paradox has occurred to many of the greatest Mechanicus throughout history. Even I, who am far from the greatest Archmagos - even considering only our planet - considered it once upon a time, and was frustrated for many years before I found the - or possibly a - solution."
"A solution?"
"It might not be the only one. I have never heard of another, but I have heard of two answers to the Paradox of Movement, sometimes known as the Paradox of Rogal Dorn and the Tortoise…"
"Yes?"
'Probability 99%. Section A 28%. Section B 95%. Section C 1%. Section D…' After a long moment of consideration, Archmagos Luraia Teral sent over the titles of three books. "Study these. Come back to me in a year, and tell me the answers, and the questions, that you have found. And I, with any luck, may get to tell you our governor's reaction."
"Thank you, Archmagos Teral!" Tech-Adept Artheda Ran-Bethil bowed low, honoring the giver of knowledge and wisdom, then left the room - with perhaps a touch too much speed to truly be proper. Not that many cared - this was Shogi, not Mars.
'Probability 100%.' "Ah," Archmagos Luraia Teral, "Another successful experiment. It won't work for any and every circumstance, but I do like to have some idea how well the conversation is likely to go. Now to spend three days checking the log-files to see if I missed anything…"
The lights blinked unexpectedly.
"Ah. Make that three weeks. How utterly unforeseeable. Well, least said soonest mended." And the Archmagos got back to work.
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have him backed up by the diplomatic Corps and then start with easier missions where a failure wont hurt that much while Atraxas does the really important missions.