Sterbelicht - One Sacrifice At A Time Against The Galaxy (40K)
- Thread starter HeroCooky
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Well, we first need to think of the criterion for sharing technology, and more than that, technological knowledge. Fundamentally the beliefs as outlined in the Droman Creed don't allow us to give someone guns but not teach them how to make guns as well, or so on. We cannot keep them reliant on us, which means they need to be worthy to share in the knowledge, by whatever standard of "worthy" we adopt.
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Thank you for the clarification Cooky.
Hopefully we can get onto the actual problem at hand now.
My initial thought regarding 'worthiness' would be something based around time and/or willingness to not only contribute but risk for the wider Federation. The Kil'drabi have worked alongside us for more than 2 centuries now with no issue, and have both contributed materially to our Heavy Industy capabilities and been willing to put their lives and ships on the line to protect the wider Federation-not just their own people in Droma, but humans in other star systems. In my mind, they have fulfilled both criteria for establishing the level of trust needed to bring them up to our level of technology.
That seems like a decent starting point for the Uplifting stuff. Regarding taking, studying, and using alien tech, I feel like if the Star Child is willing to extend its protection to non-humans, then that proves that the touch of the Machine God and the Motive Force extends beyond the works of human hands, and thus anything that doesn't bear the touch of the Great Enemy, require elements or parts that are immoral to aquire, or have a heinous use, should be fair game for our faction.
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- Pronouns
- Zack
Out of curiosity, that federation was the human government during DAOT?
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- They/Them
[] (Stuff about the criteria of worthiness here)
[] As for technologies not created by the Imperium, is it not said that all voices may be one day lifted in Song? The criteria for evaluating the technologies of others to integrate into our own is simple: moral and practical. An engine that feeds on screaming souls is damnation, but nowhere has it been written that all technological knowledge is currently known by members of the Imperium or Federation. The technologies of Xenos are still ultimately the result of the Omnissiah, as all knowledge and technology are, so long as they are not immoral, tainted by Chaos, or worse.
[] The principles to govern an exchange of knowledge, whether from us to a Xenos or from a Xenos to us, are to be acknowledged carefully.
--[] First, right scholarship: that is to say, we can refuse to share a technology with someone deemed unworthy, we can have 'trade secrets' but if we agree to share knowledge of warp drives but leave out information on a fatal error in the construction that we later fixed, this is dishonoring the Omnissiah and is heresy in its basest form.
--[] Second, that exchanges should be fair to all parties. There is room, of course, for charity and generosity, and these are to be commended, but fundamentally if two people exchange knowledge or information, both should in the end be enriched in order to spread the light of the Omnissiah-and-Emperor. Other contributions may of course apply.
--[] Third, right understanding: knowledge gained through this cannot be restricted, or at least not beyond the amount necessitated by its nature. A catalogue of every single Chaos symbol should not be available in the common libraries of any species, but any knowledge a Xenos trades to us or we trade to a Xenos should be widely available: we do not exist to empower a small clique within a group we are trading with, nor to become a small clique empowered by controlled access to information.
Here's what I have so far. Psyker stuff is also, like, gonna go in at some point?
[] As for technologies not created by the Imperium, is it not said that all voices may be one day lifted in Song? The criteria for evaluating the technologies of others to integrate into our own is simple: moral and practical. An engine that feeds on screaming souls is damnation, but nowhere has it been written that all technological knowledge is currently known by members of the Imperium or Federation. The technologies of Xenos are still ultimately the result of the Omnissiah, as all knowledge and technology are, so long as they are not immoral, tainted by Chaos, or worse.
[] The principles to govern an exchange of knowledge, whether from us to a Xenos or from a Xenos to us, are to be acknowledged carefully.
--[] First, right scholarship: that is to say, we can refuse to share a technology with someone deemed unworthy, we can have 'trade secrets' but if we agree to share knowledge of warp drives but leave out information on a fatal error in the construction that we later fixed, this is dishonoring the Omnissiah and is heresy in its basest form.
--[] Second, that exchanges should be fair to all parties. There is room, of course, for charity and generosity, and these are to be commended, but fundamentally if two people exchange knowledge or information, both should in the end be enriched in order to spread the light of the Omnissiah-and-Emperor. Other contributions may of course apply.
--[] Third, right understanding: knowledge gained through this cannot be restricted, or at least not beyond the amount necessitated by its nature. A catalogue of every single Chaos symbol should not be available in the common libraries of any species, but any knowledge a Xenos trades to us or we trade to a Xenos should be widely available: we do not exist to empower a small clique within a group we are trading with, nor to become a small clique empowered by controlled access to information.
Here's what I have so far. Psyker stuff is also, like, gonna go in at some point?
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HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
That will be its own Faith Action after this one has been dealt with.
Galatic Government of around a third of the Milky Way. Humanity was its founding member tho.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
The real big thing is "We didn't ask them to contribute, but they anted up both Battlecolonies in the defensive action against the strike from Itani, and we know how precious they find them. They took real, genuine risk without our requiring them of it. That's Important"
I am only been in the wading pool of WH40K. Was that the canon break down of what happened or was that canon for this quest?
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- Canada
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Canon for the quest, based on one of the common interpretations of what the Dark Age of Technology was like based on what little we've learned about it as a Fandom from 30k and 40k novels, rulebooks, and codexes.
how about archology? like we do this with STCs being fragments of the human golden age so anything on studying xeno tech we fould in some ruins or picked up on a battlefield?
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
Canon for this Quest and Near-Complete Fanon based on some murky snippets the fandom got from the lore and books.
Yeah, the thing is nobody really knows much of anything about the Age of Strife or the Dark Age of Technology b/c GW rarely tries to explore it (and knowing them, it's probably for the best). Best we know is that Humanity was at its peak then it all came crashing horribly down from a combination of Men of Iron going rogue, Warp Storms everywhere, Scientist-Kings wielding terrible weapons warred against each other, some Xenos opportunistically raiding, and Chaos fanning the flames all the while.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Hive Cities are shitty Arcologies that don't care about sustainability and exist to produce absurd quantities of cheap goods until they inevitably explode into Daemons.
HeroCooky
Unverified Monstergirl
They are talking about archeology. Digging stuff up, not Arcologies.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
I mean, Archaeology tends to happen in Hive Cities, it just involves extreme gang warfare.
. . . oops,typed the wrong word, i meant archaeology, like digging through ruins and shit to find historical relics and items of importance
what do we do with that? like say one federation member finds something, do they have to bring it back to the others to share and study, see if it's safe to be used by all parties or do we destroy something or lock it away?
STCs are to be shared and studied right? what's the policy?
Also given how many AdMech go insane while studying Necron stuff, Necron tech may have memetic DRM built into them to screw with people trying to study them.
Sounds like we need to establish an Order of Archeologists this up coming turn.
This?
[] [Faith] Brotherhoods, Sisterhoods, Siblinghoods, And Orders of Faith
Or more specifically:
[] [Other] Take Care Of [Dream, The Impossible Dream]
-[] The Star Child has shown us the past as it was, and yet. We have questions. Yet we know not what to ask.
-[] Establish and Order of Archeologists with assistance of the Choir, Mechanicus, and military help. This group responsibilities are to track down reports of anything that older than memory. Particularly from the 'DAOT'.
--[] All sectors are to report any leads to this order with priority
--[] Unless situations require more, the OoA will be granted a small fleet of Scout Ships out fitted for speed and personnel capacity for their use. Anything more can be borrowed from the Navy till proven they are in regular need of larger ships or alternative load outs.
--[] The OoA is to either have or gather the required members with the particular skills sets to travel to locals to investigate DOAT ruins.
---[] Both for STCs and other assorted technologies but primarily for historical facts and lore of what happened so long ago both Human and Alien in nature.
--[] the overriding goal is to establish a True Historical Timeline of Events and verify the cause of everything that lead to the age of strife and perhaps into the rise of the Imperium.
---[] Try hard to keep it as factual as possible with no bias or eyes clouded by emotion.
-[] As this Order grows and our interactions with Xenos increases this Order may be required to create a splinter group whose job it is to fundamentally understand Xenos Ideology, lore, and most importantly: Historical accounts and facts. And maybe required to train Ambassadors to those Xenos cultures and if needed, be prepared to assist the Glimmering Federation behind enemy lines should the Xenos turn just as traitorous as last time.
-[] And of course facts and conclusions will be reported to the council as information is understood at the end of particular investigations or as the council requests so.
I am sure it needs work but what do you think about this write in.
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This looks good. Just have to get the right criteria/trust thing.
Hm. How about something like this?
[] Human technology to Xenos: Common causes and allies can be found with Xenos. The Kil'drabi is a key argument against the hateful, all-consuming fear of the Imperium against the Xenos. Those that the Glimmering Federation can understand, entreaty with, and coexist with can eventually prove worthy of being entrusted with some measure of the human understanding of the Omnissiah's wisdom. Yet there are xenos races that are so fundamentally wrong or hostile to humanity that such cannot happen. A policy of "Trust, but verify" should be followed. For human technology to be dispensed, the Xenos must meet the minimum of the following three criteria.
-[] First, sharing of the Omnissiah's wisdom must further the common cause between the Glimmering Federation and Xenos races or factions in question. Or at the very least, must not be detrimental to the Glimmering Federation.
-[] Second, the Xenos must not be fundamentally hostile to humanity. This requires the Federation to be able to understand the Xenos.
-[] Third, the Xenos must not be Chaos-tainted or possess and utilize abominable technologies such as the Halo-device.
Don't know if this makes sense or not.
seems great . . . wait doesn't a part of the Mechanicus have explorers that go around looking for this stuff? (so this is going to be a federation wide agreement instead of just our mechanicus going out to discover things?)
so Laurent has the worthiness thing written down and you got something for how we can acquire tech/info on what happened
hmm . . . still thinking
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- They/Them
It's not bad, but I do think you need to be more clear on what "The xenos" is in this case. By this I mean, the Imperium possesses and sometimes uses abominable technologies with all sorts of caveats and, "it's okay, an Inquisitor told me to." Therefore obviously technology shouldn't be shared with any humans.
Hm. Replace Xenos with factions? And put in a quip that Xenos are not monolithic entities (after all, humanity isn't)?It's not bad, but I do think you need to be more clear on what "The xenos" is in this case. By this I mean, the Imperium possesses and sometimes uses abominable technologies with all sorts of caveats and, "it's okay, an Inquisitor told me to." Therefore obviously technology shouldn't be shared with any humans.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Broadly, the way I see it, it's best to categories Outsiders properly.
1) They need to not be Ravagers who will always attack if they sense weakness, and sometimes even if they don't. It'd be a fool who tried to make peace with an Ork and expect them to follow through on the matter, just as it would be similarly foolish to cut a deal with a Tyranid (If one could somehow speak) or a Daemon of Chaos or their slaves. These are things that can Never be trusted on a national scale, and should be treated as true Foes to all members of the Glimmering Federation.
EXAMPLES: Orks, Tyranids, OldCrons, Forces of Chaos, Evil Shit like the Rak'Gol in the Koronus Expanse, and so forth. Usually Dark Eldar (Like, Ninety Nine times out of a hundred, they're probably a Ravager, but they're not incapable of moving up to the next tier)
2) They probably shouldn't be Travellers who are capable of navigating the stars on their own power. Whether good or bad, these figures have their own interests which aren't necessarily in line with our own. It's okay to bargain or cooperate on a case-by-case basis, so long as their requirement isn't unreasonable. (It'd be absurd to sign citizens of the Federation to slavery or servitude after all), but one should keep in mind that a relationship of benefits shouldn't be expected to endure once those benefits are no longer valid.
EXAMPLES: Most Eldar, The Imperium of Man, The Tau Empire, Newcrons, theoretically minor-but-spacefaring powers like the Stryxis from the Koronus Expanse. Broadly speaking, if they have some means of interstellar mobility and are technically capable of (Whether they employ it or not) Diplomacy, you're a Traveller
3) They shouldn't be Children who have barely left the cradle of their home world. While it would be an abject cruelty to leave someone entirely alone in the darkness of Space, since they'd likely become food for one Ravager or another, nor is it particularly wise to simply drag them up into space without a careful understanding of their philosophy and requirements--it would be a fool indeed to lift feral Orks to the stars after all even out of ignorance. At the very least, it needs to be determined if they would become another Ravager before true contact be made.
EXAMPLES: One System Minors, Uncontacted Human Worlds, The shit that would be Prime Directive material in Star Trek--which would be a stupid idea in 40K, but at the very least you need to make sure direct contact won't cause them to flip out and launch a crusade on the universe for Existing.
4) Protectorates do deserve some assistance of course--those who have chosen to shelter under the Aegis of the Glimmering Federation. In exchange for a share of their expertise and a recognition of our Core Laws, we demand little in turn. They may develop as they please, and we will take all reasonable steps to ensure their security, in these dark days. They are also able to benefit from our trade and logistical networks as any other citizen may--within reason of course, military and other High Technology is reserved for...
EXAMPLES: The Kil'drabi prior to the Second Battle of Ubraka. Hypothetically disconnected Imperial factions that we take under protection but aren't quite willing to sign on with the Federation yet.
5) Kin who have shed blood, made sacrifices, and otherwise put themselves at risk for the betterment of of the Federation as a whole. This need not necessarily be military support, but the idea is that one has moved beyond benefits, and beyond the mere obligations of a Protectorate to lash their fate together with our own. These should be treated as little different than any other full member of the Federation, regardless of species. The Kil'drabi in particular would qualify for this by the commitment of their two colonies to the defense of Ubraka, despite how precious such structures are to them, simply because they could arrive in time, and the work needed to be done. That is Weighty, and should not be discounted. Such should be permitted a full share of our knowledge and understanding of the world, and hopefully their own perspective can enrich our Federation in turn.
EXAMPLES: The Kil'Drabi now, The Candle Keepers.
1) They need to not be Ravagers who will always attack if they sense weakness, and sometimes even if they don't. It'd be a fool who tried to make peace with an Ork and expect them to follow through on the matter, just as it would be similarly foolish to cut a deal with a Tyranid (If one could somehow speak) or a Daemon of Chaos or their slaves. These are things that can Never be trusted on a national scale, and should be treated as true Foes to all members of the Glimmering Federation.
EXAMPLES: Orks, Tyranids, OldCrons, Forces of Chaos, Evil Shit like the Rak'Gol in the Koronus Expanse, and so forth. Usually Dark Eldar (Like, Ninety Nine times out of a hundred, they're probably a Ravager, but they're not incapable of moving up to the next tier)
2) They probably shouldn't be Travellers who are capable of navigating the stars on their own power. Whether good or bad, these figures have their own interests which aren't necessarily in line with our own. It's okay to bargain or cooperate on a case-by-case basis, so long as their requirement isn't unreasonable. (It'd be absurd to sign citizens of the Federation to slavery or servitude after all), but one should keep in mind that a relationship of benefits shouldn't be expected to endure once those benefits are no longer valid.
EXAMPLES: Most Eldar, The Imperium of Man, The Tau Empire, Newcrons, theoretically minor-but-spacefaring powers like the Stryxis from the Koronus Expanse. Broadly speaking, if they have some means of interstellar mobility and are technically capable of (Whether they employ it or not) Diplomacy, you're a Traveller
3) They shouldn't be Children who have barely left the cradle of their home world. While it would be an abject cruelty to leave someone entirely alone in the darkness of Space, since they'd likely become food for one Ravager or another, nor is it particularly wise to simply drag them up into space without a careful understanding of their philosophy and requirements--it would be a fool indeed to lift feral Orks to the stars after all even out of ignorance. At the very least, it needs to be determined if they would become another Ravager before true contact be made.
EXAMPLES: One System Minors, Uncontacted Human Worlds, The shit that would be Prime Directive material in Star Trek--which would be a stupid idea in 40K, but at the very least you need to make sure direct contact won't cause them to flip out and launch a crusade on the universe for Existing.
4) Protectorates do deserve some assistance of course--those who have chosen to shelter under the Aegis of the Glimmering Federation. In exchange for a share of their expertise and a recognition of our Core Laws, we demand little in turn. They may develop as they please, and we will take all reasonable steps to ensure their security, in these dark days. They are also able to benefit from our trade and logistical networks as any other citizen may--within reason of course, military and other High Technology is reserved for...
EXAMPLES: The Kil'drabi prior to the Second Battle of Ubraka. Hypothetically disconnected Imperial factions that we take under protection but aren't quite willing to sign on with the Federation yet.
5) Kin who have shed blood, made sacrifices, and otherwise put themselves at risk for the betterment of of the Federation as a whole. This need not necessarily be military support, but the idea is that one has moved beyond benefits, and beyond the mere obligations of a Protectorate to lash their fate together with our own. These should be treated as little different than any other full member of the Federation, regardless of species. The Kil'drabi in particular would qualify for this by the commitment of their two colonies to the defense of Ubraka, despite how precious such structures are to them, simply because they could arrive in time, and the work needed to be done. That is Weighty, and should not be discounted. Such should be permitted a full share of our knowledge and understanding of the world, and hopefully their own perspective can enrich our Federation in turn.
EXAMPLES: The Kil'Drabi now, The Candle Keepers.
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