Starship Design Bureau

So they want the bastard offspring of a police crusier and a panel van.
That seems par for the course. Why make ships of the line to fight the Klingons when you can have overgunned science vessels that ship enough cargo to go on five year voyages on the regular...

I mean, it's a doctrine that works--if for no other reason than it's rarely at all a straight-up fight--but I do think it's being misapplied here. The answer to more shipping demands for construction materials should be more freighter ships, not trying to fit a bigger cargo bay into a QRF frigate.
 
That seems par for the course. Why make ships of the line to fight the Klingons when you can have overgunned science vessels that ship enough cargo to go on five year voyages on the regular...

I mean, it's a doctrine that works--if for no other reason than it's rarely at all a straight-up fight--but I do think it's being misapplied here. The answer to more shipping demands for construction materials should be more freighter ships, not trying to fit a bigger cargo bay into a QRF frigate.
Well this is a Starfleet ship first and foremost, and cargo hauling is only one of it's duties. It's also an escort ship to the things that do most of the bulk shipping, which is the civilian fleet.
 
[X] Underslung trailing nacelles. (Faster Warp Sprint)

Didn't we go with the option that limited crew for additional systems? More free internal space means more systems to stretch a limited size crew over. Besides, if this ship will be handling cargo shipping, faster warp is always a good thing, especially if an increased sprint speed helps with more urgent or emergency shipping.
 
Well this is a Starfleet ship first and foremost, and cargo hauling is only one of it's duties. It's also an escort ship to the things that do most of the bulk shipping, which is the civilian fleet.
Well, yes. It should be focused on sprint speed, durability and weapons so it can more effectively escort the shipping and respond to emergencies. And it should have some cargo space for emergency relief supplies.

My complaints are more for the implication that this would be a replacement to expanding the shipping fleet.
 
Well, yes. It should be focused on sprint speed, durability and weapons so it can more effectively escort the shipping and respond to emergencies. And it should have some cargo space for emergency relief supplies.

My complaints are more for the implication that this would be a replacement to expanding the shipping fleet.
For all their whining about not being soliders starfleet is a military. They are gonna have these ship loaded to the gills more often then not.
 
For all their whining about not being soliders starfleet is a military. They are gonna have these ship loaded to the gills more often then not.
And they'll be loaded that way however much cargo space we allocate. The question is whether the utility of that much more cargo is worth not having the speed to respond to emergencies, and for an (relatively!) small ship designed to respond to emergencies, I cannot think that it is.
 
For all their whining about not being soliders starfleet is a military. They are gonna have these ship loaded to the gills more often then not.

I mean yeah, but the way they are depicted most of the time has them fulfilling a science or exploratory role before being used for warfare, pretty sure Picard for example was just as much an archeologist as he was a ship captain (there were a ton of civilians aboard his ship as well). Kirk was usually depicted as an explorer in most of the episodes, the only time military stuff really happens in most of shows (barring all of New-Trek, the movies, DS9; and Star Trek Online) is in the episodes where they are responding to some form of crisis. I mean maybe its just my head canon but Starfleet never seemed war hungry to me, only engaging in conflict when they felt pushed into it.
 
I mean yeah, but the way they are depicted most of the time has them fulfilling a science or exploratory role before being used for warfare, pretty sure Picard for example was just as much an archeologist as he was a ship captain (there were a ton of civilians aboard his ship as well). Kirk was usually depicted as an explorer in most of the episodes, the only time military stuff really happens in most of shows (barring all of New-Trek, the movies, DS9; and Star Trek Online) is in the episodes where they are responding to some form of crisis. I mean maybe its just my head canon but Starfleet never seemed war hungry to me, only engaging in conflict when they felt pushed into it.
In this context being war hunger or not isn't relevant to the comment. It's just that any even slightly military organization sees an empty cargo hold as abomination and so will endeavor to see them packed full any chance they get.
 
I mean maybe its just my head canon but Starfleet never seemed war hungry to me, only engaging in conflict when they felt pushed into it.
No that's pretty accurate. It's easily argued that they're perhaps too willing to take peace, considering the clusterfuck that came about from ending the Cardassian conflict. You have to push Starfleet and the Federation pretty far for them to take the fist out of the glove.
 
[X] Underslung trailing nacelles. (Faster Warp Sprint)

It fits the parameters we want, and doesn't eat up space we need for support modules. I've always seen it as the police panel van, personally, given the primary scoring metric is Tactical only. Escort, anti-piracy, and starfleet-operated disaster/distress response all generally want the same class of ship, and even similar functional profiles (fast, well armed, lightly crewed, and with enough space to quickly adjust to sudden cargo demands (such as prisoners, refugees, relief supplies, etc.) (and honestly that we didn't go experimental on the impulse drive hurts me, it was perfect for this if it could outperform industry standard), and the 100 or less crew hard limit and other 'wants' on their shopping list all indicate they realize they need to fill all of the mentioned roles, but that they also realize they don't have the manpower or any good reason to have three times the planned number of ships as dedicated vessels.
 
On the question of "why not just use a freighter" I think there are a few considerations here.

There are a few situations where you want a more capable ship that can carry a fair amount of stuff, even though sending a warship or a science ship to carry terraforming equipment is probably a hundred times more expensive than getting an actual freighter to do the exact same thing. One is responding to emergencies, as has been mentioned. If you're doing disaster relief, just being able to send medical supplies and aid isn't enough, you need a ship with shuttles, transporters, powerful sensors, trained crew, and all the other amenities to distribute these supplies. This is why warships are highly useful when responding to natural disasters and providing humanitarian aid today.

The other and perhaps more central one is power projection. If you're trying to send ground forces to a planet, or build a base in contested territory, or lay mines, or defuse a minefield, or really do anything of consequence that another power does not want you to do, it's going to involve moving material around, then doing stuff with that material, whilst under threat of enemy action. A freighter can haul lots of equipment, but how is a freighter going to cope when a Romulan Bird-of-Prey materialises in its aft quarter when it is midway through deploying an automated listening post? A freighter might be able to transport a team of Starfleet negotiators to a border world beset by pirates, but what will it do when the pirate ship shows up?

The last are a broad range of jobs probably more analogous to what we use quite specialised ships to do today. If you want a ship that can transport and deploy an oil rig, for example, or send a polar research team to the Antarctic with all the supplies they need for a six month duration stay including polar exploration vehicles, modular habitats and a helicopter, or lay undersea cables for a new high speed internet connection, you can't send a commercial freighter. A Federation starship can do all of these jobs at once, whilst also protecting itself from pirates and other hostile forces, and having a crew of capable experts who can come up with on-the-fly solutions to almost any emergency or unforeseen event.

The only thing I would hasten to add here is to argue against the suggestion that scientific facilities are not important for doing these jobs. I think they are, because what it gives a starship is the ability to flexibly respond to many different situations. Powerful sensors and an astrogation suite full of nerds means that you can track pirates who've made the mistake of thinking they can hide in a nebula. Having your own botanists means that you can come up with a solution for the space-kuzdu which is threatening to eat a fledgling colony, and having a diplomat on board comes in handy for negotiating a trade agreement when your xenologists realise the kuzdu is sentient.

Fundamentally, Starfleet seems to operate on a "cruiser" doctrine based around highly capable ships capable of responding to many different contingencies, operating shuttles and supporting other vessels, and doing basic research. Even the Defiant class, often considered by fans to be a "pure" warship, has a shuttle bay, internal cargo space, is seen doing a scientific survey in one episode, had its own science labs and was able to launch probes into a subspace anomaly. If this seems idealistic, consider that sensors which can probe anomalies are also useful for reconnaissance, and labs which can do sample analysis can also be useful when you're doing a cheeky bit of war crimes with the lads to intimidate the Maquis.
 
We aren't arguing against Including science staff, we are just having to decide where we can afford to shave things down and not having to include labs for every single major feild of study frees up volume.
 
Sure, I'm speaking in general here. Even a "C" or a "D" rating on Science still equates to an ability to collect data and do analyses, and is more of a measure of how this relates to the current cutting edge of capabilities. But I think it's important to note that whilst there is a meaningful distinction between smaller starships intended for mostly operating inside the Federation and a flagship explorer, every starship by nature is in some sense a research vessel.
 
Sure, I'm speaking in general here. Even a "C" or a "D" rating on Science still equates to an ability to collect data and do analyses, and is more of a measure of how this relates to the current cutting edge of capabilities. But I think it's important to note that whilst there is a meaningful distinction between smaller starships intended for mostly operating inside the Federation and a flagship explorer, every starship by nature is in some sense a research vessel.
We are going to be using an Isoliner computer core which means we are going to have analysis abilities unless we vote to give up some of the capacity.
 
[X] Underslung catamaran nacelles. (More Internal Space)

We're already pretty big, and internal space is dear on this design.
 
[X] Underslung trailing nacelles. (Faster Warp Sprint)

As a frigate that's being designed to replace the Miranda, a ship class that's produced in bulk and sent on missions everywhere, having good sprint capabilities to quickly relocate much needed firepower and/or cargo in a hurry is highly valuable. Leave bulk transport to bulk cargo haulers, and give the warship armed escort some wings.
 
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