Star Wars General Discussion Thread

Greivous and Dooku's personalities were also substantially more defined going into Clone Wars, whereas Maul was a blank slate
Honestly? Notsomuch, at least in terms of new continuity. Sure there's old stuff like Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Rendez-vous, but most of the works of that line were axed by Disney in terms of continuity, and TCW tended to steamroll over them anyway because TCW rarely if ever regards prior works as relevant to its own creative direction. They have set out personalities, but what they're actually doing in this point in time is not really covered precisely because TCW steamrolls over everything in the same era. So there's this big late series hole where they just aren't around despite allegedly being the main villains of this part of Star Wars. Grievous mercifully gets some solid character episodes earlier on, but by all rights that should only be escalating towards the series end as he becomes more relevant for Ep3. Dooku meanwhile, is mostly just kind of... there, with very little in the way of TCW exploring him, even before he stops appearing. If you make an overarching clone wars series, you should probably be aware that you're going to be covering the major antagonists of the clone wars era, and that should focus in towards the end. If you want blank slate antagonists, don't make a series about an era with specific central villains. You can have supplementary villains, sure, but you can't forget about the main ones. And Maul just... has no reason to be here. He died in ep1, and has no personality. TCW never managed to adequately overcome those two issues while also neglecting the interesting villains it did have towards the latter end.

Maul fighting Ahsoka in the Clone Wars finale is likely down to the production order.

They likely would have wanted Maul to fight Obi-Wan in Clone Wars, but it ended before they got there. So they introduced him in Rebels so they could do that, and gave him the attempted Mentorship of Ezra so he'd have a reason to be there. Then they got that last season of Clone Wars, and needed something to do with him
This just reads to me as very creatively flawed if true. Compromising the narrative of an entire series set way after Maul has any right to be around just to pay off somehting you dind't get to do before, does not strike me as great creatively. It doesn't create good art, and the Rebels Maul arc is very much a disjointed mess that doesn't mesh and feels very forced.
 
Honestly? Notsomuch, at least in terms of new continuity. Sure there's old stuff like Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Rendez-vous, but most of the works of that line were axed by Disney in terms of continuity, and TCW tended to steamroll over them anyway because TCW rarely if ever regards prior works as relevant to its own creative direction. They have set out personalities, but what they're actually doing in this point in time is not really covered precisely because TCW steamrolls over everything in the same era. So there's this big late series hole where they just aren't around despite allegedly being the main villains of this part of Star Wars. Grievous mercifully gets some solid character episodes earlier on, but by all rights that should only be escalating towards the series end as he becomes more relevant for Ep3. Dooku meanwhile, is mostly just kind of... there, with very little in the way of TCW exploring him, even before he stops appearing. If you make an overarching clone wars series, you should probably be aware that you're going to be covering the major antagonists of the clone wars era, and that should focus in towards the end. If you want blank slate antagonists, don't make a series about an era with specific central villains. You can have supplementary villains, sure, but you can't forget about the main ones. And Maul just... has no reason to be here. He died in ep1, and has no personality. TCW never managed to adequately overcome those two issues while also neglecting the interesting villains it did have towards the latter end.


This just reads to me as very creatively flawed if true. Compromising the narrative of an entire series set way after Maul has any right to be around just to pay off somehting you dind't get to do before, does not strike me as great creatively. It doesn't create good art, and the Rebels Maul arc is very much a disjointed mess that doesn't mesh and feels very forced.
1. You do know that most of TCW was made before the Disney buy out right?

2. Because Dooku and Greivous don't have as much to offer the plot as Maul. Dooku can't question his master too much because he still needs to trust him enough that he lets himself be put into a position where Anakin can kill him. Greivous can't meet Anakin at all.

3. I mean, they did fix the no personality issue quite thoroughly. And even when they did focus on Dooku and Greivous, those two were never as interesting as they made Maul.

4. I disagree that Maul's presence complicated Rebels narrative. Ezra having an arc where he's tempted by the Darkside is a perfectly natural progression for him, and Maul fit perfectly into the role of tempter. And the ending duel with Obi-Wan is one of the greatest moments in all of Star Wars
 
1. You do know that most of TCW was made before the Disney buy out right?

2. Because Dooku and Greivous don't have as much to offer the plot as Maul. Dooku can't question his master too much because he still needs to trust him enough that he lets himself be put into a position where Anakin can kill him. Greivous can't meet Anakin at all.

3. I mean, they did fix the no personality issue quite thoroughly. And even when they did focus on Dooku and Greivous, those two were never as interesting as they made Maul.

4. I disagree that Maul's presence complicated Rebels narrative. Ezra having an arc where he's tempted by the Darkside is a perfectly natural progression for him, and Maul fit perfectly into the role of tempter. And the ending duel with Obi-Wan is one of the greatest moments in all of Star Wars
Yes, I know large amounts of TCW was made before the uyout, but as I said TCW tended to ignore prior work anyway, and more pertinently, the tail end of TCW which is relevant here, was primarily produced during or after the changeover with the knowledge that it would be canonised.

Maul flat out doesn't meet Anakin either, so that feels like a non-starter for Grievous comparisons, and I don't see why Dooku has to question his master to the same extent Maul does. they wrote the Maul plot for what they wanted to do with Maul, and if they wrote Dooku plot it would be tailored towards, well, Dooku. the Maul plot's narrative arc at the end of TCW isn't some written in stone inevitable thing they have to do. My point is simply that for a story nominally pushed as the primary story of the clone war period, it's bafflingly devoid of two of the biggest player in the late stages. Anakin and Obi-Wan are pretty established characters as well, but they don't almost completely fuck off from the second half and are inherently part of the main plot even though they aren't involved in the final battle itself - it takes them right up to the point of leaving for Ep3.

And just.. no, no Maul wasn't interesting IMO. He still had no personality, little depth or direction, and spends most of his time bouncing between disconnected story elements and charcaters brainlessly screeching about Kenobi and leaving a congaline of aborted storylines in his wake. The ending duel with Obi-Wan is a joke, because it has nothing behind it, no depth to their relationship because they have barely encountered each other. An inecredibly flat character stands across from his alleged nemesis - who incidentally is otherwise entirely absent from Rebels - for about a minute after stumbling around in the desert for a purposeless amount of time, and then dies in a second. It's the epitome of fake profundity and episode length bloat. I'm generally an advocate of taking more time when necessary and not super into the frenetic pace of a lot of modern media, but there needs to be something meaningful behind that time taken. The whole Maul story could have been one, maybe two TCW episodes and accomplished the same, without the sporadic all over the place mess it took to arrive there. Greatest moments in all of Star Wars? lol

Maul exists for no other reason than to look cool and do cool things.
And pretty much only Episode 1, and the final two TCW episodes, realise that. He's a brainless setpiece, not a deep character, at least not as Lucas and filoni write him, despite their rather evidently emerging delusion otherwise.
 
Yes, I know large amounts of TCW was made before the uyout, but as I said TCW tended to ignore prior work anyway, and more pertinently, the tail end of TCW which is relevant here, was primarily produced during or after the changeover with the knowledge that it would be canonised.

Maul flat out doesn't meet Anakin either, so that feels like a non-starter for Grievous comparisons, and I don't see why Dooku has to question his master to the same extent Maul does. they wrote the Maul plot for what they wanted to do with Maul, and if they wrote Dooku plot it would be tailored towards, well, Dooku. the Maul plot's narrative arc at the end of TCW isn't some written in stone inevitable thing they have to do. My point is simply that for a story nominally pushed as the primary story of the clone war period, it's bafflingly devoid of two of the biggest player in the late stages. Anakin and Obi-Wan are pretty established characters as well, but they don't almost completely fuck off from the second half and are inherently part of the main plot even though they aren't involved in the final battle itself - it takes them right up to the point of leaving for Ep3.

And just.. no, no Maul wasn't interesting IMO. He still had no personality, little depth or direction, and spends most of his time bouncing between disconnected story elements and charcaters brainlessly screeching about Kenobi and leaving a congaline of aborted storylines in his wake. The ending duel with Obi-Wan is a joke, because it has nothing behind it, no depth to their relationship because they have barely encountered each other. An inecredibly flat character stands across from his alleged nemesis - who incidentally is otherwise entirely absent from Rebels - for about a minute after stumbling around in the desert for a purposeless amount of time, and then dies in a second. It's the epitome of fake profundity and episode length bloat. I'm generally an advocate of taking more time when necessary and not super into the frenetic pace of a lot of modern media, but there needs to be something meaningful behind that time taken. The whole Maul story could have been one, maybe two TCW episodes and accomplished the same, without the sporadic all over the place mess it took to arrive there. Greatest moments in all of Star Wars? lol

Maul exists for no other reason than to look cool and do cool things.
And pretty much only Episode 1, and the final two TCW episodes, realise that. He's a brainless setpiece, not a deep character, at least not as Lucas and filoni write him, despite their rather evidently emerging delusion otherwise.
1. Maul didn't meet Anakin because the Writer's didn't want him to. He could have met Maul if they wanted that to happen. Greivous could not meet Anakin because the Movies explicitly state that they never met before the movie.

2. Again, it's devoid of them because the Writer's don't have as much freedom to use them. Assuming that the end of the Clone Wars show is going to feature the end of the actual Clone Wars, then Greivous and Dooku would be completely absent from the finale, because what they were doing then is shown in the movie. Why build up characters that you cannot give any kind of pay off to?

3. I disagree. Maul was interesting, and he did have a personality (In Clone Wars) .

Maul being bounced around from plot to plot is the point. Palpatine took control of Maul's life away from him, and Maul is desperate to take that control back.
 
1. Maul didn't meet Anakin because the Writer's didn't want him to. He could have met Maul if they wanted that to happen. Greivous could not meet Anakin because the Movies explicitly state that they never met before the movie.

2. Again, it's devoid of them because the Writer's don't have as much freedom to use them. Assuming that the end of the Clone Wars show is going to feature the end of the actual Clone Wars, then Greivous and Dooku would be completely absent from the finale, because what they were doing then is shown in the movie. Why build up characters that you cannot give any kind of pay off to?

3. I disagree. Maul was interesting, and he did have a personality (In Clone Wars) .

Maul being bounced around from plot to plot is the point. Palpatine took control of Maul's life away from him, and Maul is desperate to take that control back.
You seem to be missing my point that not only are they absent from the finale, but more presisngly, they straight up mostly vanish after season 5. As in, seem to have little to no involvement besides Dooku briefly popping up in the Tyrannus investigation. Contrast with Ani and Obi, who obviously have to go off and do their thing in Ep3, but are kept very much in the general picture up until the point they depart. Why build up these tow if there's going to be no 'payoff'? Because they matter to the connected characters and story.

Star Wars Episode 2 and 3 are not deep films. They establish some basics on Dooku and Grievous, but beyond those basics there is a veritable goldmine of options that other writers - often ignored by Filoni and Lucas no less - have created plenty out of. The TCW writing team has the most freedom of any non-film star wars creative team by a country mile. Heck, none of this even justifies not simply using Maul and Dooku and Grievous in the late end of TCW for various purposes. Nor does it get around the matter of Ventress, who I noted earlier was written out during the direct process of substituting Maul in, has no film to set her in stone, and I notice you have not addressed at all. They redesign, rework, and pretty much completely retool Ventress for the sole purpose of reintroducing Maul, and then remove her from the plot entirely. None of this was necessary, or required by the films. But they still did it because they wanted to do a Maul story in an era where he has no place.

Maul's stories barely even touch on his connection to Palpatine, only very slightly, and they never actually explore this as a motivation with any depth. He just ping-pongs from setpiece to setpiece screaming for Kenobi only occasionally glanicng at the slight hint of Palpy issues. Because they aren't the substance of his character intent. Or if they are, then the stories are unwilling to actually engage with it. His personality is growl and do Sith things.
 
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You seem to be missing my point that not only are they absent from the finale, but more presisngly, they straight up mostly vanish after season 5. As in, seem to have little to no involvement besides Dooku briefly popping up in the Tyrannus investigation. Contrast with Ani and Obi, who obviously have to go off and do their thing in Ep3, but are kept very much in the general picture up until the point they depart. Why build up these tow if there's going to be no 'payoff'? Because they matter to the connected characters and story.

Star Wars Episode 2 and 3 are not deep films. They establish some basics on Dooku and Grievous, but beyond those basics there is a veritable goldmine of options that other writers - often ignored by Filoni and Lucas no less. The TCW writing team has the most freedom of any non-film star wars creative team by a country mile. Heck, none of this even justifies not simply using Maul and Dooku and Grievous in the late end of TCW for various purposes. Nor does it get around the matter of Ventress, who I noted earlier was written out during the direct process of substituting Maul in, has no film to set her in stone, and I notice you have not addressed at all. They redesign, rework, and pretty much completely retool Ventress for the sole purpose of reintroducing Maul, and then remove her from the plot entirely. None of this was necessary, or required by the films. But they still did it because they wanted to do a Maul story in an era where he has no place.

Maul's stories barely even touch on his connection to Palpatine, only very slightly, and they never actually explore this as a motivation with any depth. He just ping-pongs from setpiece to setpiece screaming for Kenobi only occasionally glanicng at the slight hint of Palpy issues. Because they aren't the substance of his character intent. Or if they are, then the stories are unwilling to actually engage with it. His personality is growl and do Sith things.
1. Yes, because it makes more sense to give that development time to characters you have more control over and have the ability to actually use in your finale that it does to use it on characters whose use is severely restricted and unavailable in your final story

2. It's pretty clear that they didn't want to have Ventress remain a villain, they wanted to pursue the redemption angle with her.

3. Every Maul story past her introduction touches on Palpatine. Hell, if not for Palaptine telling Dooku to dump Ventress, Maul would still be in that dumpster.
 
Pretty much becuase the show got cancelled.
Except the episodes they've since been allowed to make, they're not present in much either. And heck even projects derived from unmade TCW episodes have Dooku and Grievous mainly being kinda there more than actual narratives surrounding them as characters, so while Grievous has earlier TCW stories to provide something, Dooku as a whole is done fairly rough by TCW and its clutch of derivative works.

1. Yes, because it makes more sense to give that development time to characters you have more control over and have the ability to actually use in your finale that it does to use it on characters whose use is severely restricted and unavailable in your final story

2. It's pretty clear that they didn't want to have Ventress remain a villain, they wanted to pursue the redemption angle with her.

3. Every Maul story past her introduction touches on Palpatine. Hell, if not for Palaptine telling Dooku to dump Ventress, Maul would still be in that dumpster.
As I noted, the first point did not stop them liberally using Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, etc.

Ventress's redemption is pretty wet note and crowbarred in, is the thing, and seems purely a result of wanting to swap her out for Dooku.

Touches on, yes, loosely, marginally, and even when they have the literal duel that swallows half an episode as well as the main Mandalore plot in general by collateral, there's not much about their actual relationship explored. It's flavour text at best, because Maul has no depth to his writing. It is the 2D reason things happen, not any form of character examination akin to Krell and the clones, or Ani's relationship to Padme in the Clovis arc.
 
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Except the episodes they've since been allowed to make, they're not present in much either. And heck even projects derived from unmade TCW episodes have Dooku and Grievous mainly being kinda there more than actual narratives surrounding them as characters, so while Grievous has earlier TCW stories to provide something, Dooku as a whole is done fairly rough by TCW and its clutch of derivative works.


As I noted, the first point did not stop them liberally using Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Mace, etc.

Ventress's redemption is pretty wet note and crowbarred in, is the thing, and seems purely a result of wanting to swap her out for Dooku.

Touches on, yes, loosely, marginally, and even when they have the literal duel that swallows half an episode as well as the main Mandalore plot in general by collateral, there's not much about their actual relationship explored. that's explored. It's flavour text at best, because Maul has no depth to his writing. It is the 2D reason things happen, not any form of character examination akin to Krell and the clones, or Ani's relationship to Padme in the Clovis arc.
1. Heroes always get more screentime than villains.
2. The depth is there, you simply refuse to look for it.

And even if it wasn't there, he's still more interesting than anything to do with Dooku or Greivous. Even when the show did use them, they never had as much going on as Maul
 
1. Heroes always get more screentime than villains.
2. The depth is there, you simply refuse to look for it.

And even if it wasn't there, he's still more interesting than anything to do with Dooku or Greivous. Even when the show did use them, they never had as much going on as Maul
The former is not really an assertion I feel holds as something that must be, nor is it a trap that other works using Grievous and Dooku for character pieces have fallen into. The latter, I don't think holds at all with regards to Grievous, since some of the best early-series episodes (and for that matter best series episodes in general) make use of him and his character and what makes him tick in interesting ways. Dooku notsomuch, but that's mainly because IMO TCW just plain does him dirty for the most part when other works don't. WRT Maul, it's certainly not for a lack of looking for depths with him - I've made very distinct efforts to try and see what makes him supposedly work for other people, but I just can't find it as described. You might even be so bold as to call it my phantom menace, even. :V Since it'd sure like to find significant stuff of value in th eMaul stories because then their everpresent invasion of seemingly anything else even remotely in the same era at random would be much less annoying. But as it stands to my perspective he just dismantles interesting or promising storylines and plots to replace it with dreary pretentious ash taped together by fancy duels.
 
Has anyone else got further into the High Republic stuff? I'm meaning to do so soon, and I keep being struck by how loads of people are vocally negative about it... without having read a single book.
 
loads of people are vocally negative about it... without having read a single book.


Wow I'm getting a lot of mileage from this image. :V

Honestly, my advice? Just ignore that, pick something from the array, and see how it goes for you. If you stall much longer I can always do my usual routine of shoving a prequel era recommend down your face as a rec. :V
 


Wow I'm getting a lot of mileage from this image. :V

Honestly, my advice? Just ignore that, pick something from the array, and see how it goes for you. If you stall much longer I can always do my usual routine of shoving a prequel era recommend down your face as a rec. :V
I've managed to store up a bit of a backlog of things to read, both prose and comics, so right now it's a matter of making myself commit to it once those are done.
 
I mean if we're really being honest, Star Wars has always sucked with it's villains out of a select noticeable few. The prequels (and sequels to perhaps a disturbingly similar extent) got hit with this especially hard, any villain save Palpatine and if we still count Bounty Hunter as canon, Jango Fett basically were flat. From the sounds of things Both Filloni and Lucas really didn't tap that goldmines of characterization that could be gleamed, or Lucas had some restrictions on characterization, namely Grievous.

Dooku, is generally just there, and any chance to touch on his associations with the Jedi isn't used just like Maul and Sidious. Hell I think the new canon made him worse, because he just up and leaves the order without any real loss of faith moments like the death of Qui-Gon, or the war against the Mandalorian Protectors, or believing his Padawan Komari Vosa to be dead. Grievous, by a country mile is worse. He effectively loss any kind of personal revenge aspects without their being a Huk War where the Jedi are left to go fight in a potentially grey conflict and even the sympathetic the idea his accident was no accident that left him the way he was is also gone. All he is some egomaniac who traded his flesh for steel to go hunt Jedi. Ventress is iffy, originally she was just typical Dark Sider and wannabe Sith, but then became a Nightsister who loses eventually loses everything, and I think just eventually ends dying and not surviving the end of the war.

Maul got better, if only because he was given a different backstory, and more to him than just Palpatine's abused but loyal surrogate son. It's still not much, by the at times very abyssal depths of Star Wars villains, but still.
 
And of course, we'll be arguing over whether Kylo was fascinating and compelling, weak or an advert for fascism for whom we're just meant to feel sorry, until we're all dead. While also arguing over Snoke and whether he really did promise to be the greatest SW villain ever... or whether he was just an empty Mystery Box we all projected into.
 
And of course, we'll be arguing over whether Kylo was fascinating and compelling, weak or an advert for fascism for whom we're just meant to feel sorry, until we're all dead. While also arguing over Snoke and whether he really did promise to be the greatest SW villain ever... or whether he was just an empty Mystery Box we all projected into.

To not relitigate this, I feel they could have been better even before Palpatine had to suck the air out of everything, for the second time. But again they with Hux and Phasma followed a tradition of being quite mediocre or killed off too early.
 
To not relitigate this, I feel they could have been better even before Palpatine had to suck the air out of everything, for the second time. But again they with Hux and Phasma followed a tradition of being quite mediocre or killed off too early.
Well, Phasma is her own weird case in that as far as everyone working on TFA was concerned, she died in that movie. Johnson brought her back but by his own admission, couldn't find time in the movie to have her do that much (fair enough, however, Phasma's End really shouldn't have been cut). And then the assumption was that she'd be back - there is DotF concept art with her - only for that to come to naught.

And to cap it all, Abrams is on the record saying that his biggest frustration with TLJ is Johnson's decision to kill off Phasma.

Honestly, the character postscripts for the Age of Resistance comics (release post-TLJ) are wild because they are promising things which TRoS isn't interested in at all. Like, they really hype up Hux's vendetta against Ren, how Phasma's a survivor and Poe's ready to step up and be a responsible leader, etc.

I'm genuinely startled that I don't see more post-TLJ fics with Phasma - I actually posted the first Cyborg Phasma fic on Ao3, as far as I know.
 
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Okay so, more longform thoughts on the Bad Batch premiere. Naturally, hard ambient spoilers ahead.

I think I'll start with the start. The opening Order 66 stuff is a bit weirdly put together honestly - on the physical side mainly, the assembly. Lot's of little bits, like Depa Billaba's appearance - her outfit doesn't look like her film outfit at all and is pretty clearly asset reuse, and while they certainly can change her lightsaber colour since it's changd before, when you add that to the discount wardrobe and it looks odd for a big fancy hour-long lavish premiere that is presumably soaking up a ton of the budget and time allowance. This is further reinforced by Kanaan's voice - and I get they wanted FPJr. for continuity, but he really doesn't sound anything like Kanaan's presented age. Add in how relatively short it is, and the odd scaling of the Order 66 sequence, and it very much feels kinda rushed and tacked on. Heck Kanaan and Depa being here sort of feels more like ticking a box than anything else. I'm not a huge fan of the Kanaan comic, but IMO that version of this event does work better because all these little detail elements aren't off in it, but moreso because it centers the events around the people they affect. Compare to the Bad Batch just being kinda distant and not directly affected, and the scene doesn't really land for me. It's not horrible, but as an opener it doesn't really sell.

But, from negatives, onto positives, I largely like how totally-not-solid-snake has a somewhatd efined personality now beyond his simple stock character. The same can't really be said for the rest of the batch besides Echo, but hey baby steps. And in general the premiere nails the confused feel of the change of regime very well. The Palpy speech is perhaps unnecessary when the entire army is now puppeted by chips, but executed well enough.

Omega is interesting, and in some ways harkens back to when I was a teenager and came up with silly overcomplicated ways to have a female clone. Now that I'm a little older (I'm still young fuck you) and more developed, I can think of a much more straightforward way to have a female clone. Which was actually what I thought was going on when I first saw her, that she was a trans clone. But based on the later comments about how she's specially fiddled/genetic aberration, it seems to imply otherwise. I also find it really weird that nobody noticed she was a clone when all the clones have the same facial structure. Preach tech-guy, it was obvious! Otherwise, she has a pretty solid characterisation, though I can't help but be amused that the female clone is the one assigned to be a medical assistant.

And sadly, we turn back towards more negative stuff. So, Tarkin's soundalike is very accurate... to his Episode 4 voice, which much like Kanaan, is like 20 years out. I can't reccall if this was the case for the Citadel arc back in TCW s3. Not a huge issue, but does kinda add a little brick on the wall of little niggling things. Much more glaringly, the chips stuff gets... kind of a severe mess. Conveniently, the Batch have nonfunctioning chips due to interference with difference in their genetics causing different and more independent neural activity. Which kinda raises the rather severe question of why the Kaminoans ever let them out on the field since they must have caught this in the testing phase. It also causes issues later on, but we'll get to that.

Onderon's little bit is fairly solid, and while I find the cold sniper being the authority sympathiser extremely stock and predictable, it's at least set up well. Saw remains an oddity, in that his Rogue one casting didn't look much like his TCW appearance, and now everything defaults to the film design, Saw here doesn't look much like his TCW design either, which is weird since it's like less than a year in-setting of gap. It's not bad as such, just a strange consequence of reality, and certainly more forgivable than TCW-onwards Ventress not looking much like original Ventress.

The basic overarching story is reasonable, the animation remains as consistently solid as TCW and Rebels managed to put out, and Tarkin especially is well-characterised. Towards the end though, some issues start coming back to bite. So, as a first bit, to get it out of the way. Nala Se is just about the most all over the place character across the entireity of TCW through to here. From stock empathy medic worrie over the wellbeing of clones in s1, to moustachetwirling obstructive amoral scientist who views the clones as meat in the s6 chips arc, to this odd sort of motherly figure to Omega albeit compromised by her position. I think I like the Bad Batch take on her most since it has the most layers to it, but the general problem remains that she has no consistent characterisation across her appearances, and honestly feels like a different character each time. So like, I guess I'm looking forward to more of her relationship with Omega, but she's been basically a diffeent person every time we've seen her, so I'm not really expecting her to actually revisit this subject matter, considering how minor she is even here.

And then the big one, which really hurts the thematics. The chip situation. So, the chips situation is something I've never much liked - and considering how much this premiere flip flops in terminology between chips and brainwashing/conditioning I think it exacerbates a lot - since it removes the agency of the clones, not only on a logistical level, which is understandable in pure in-universe terms, but on the thematic level and how it interplays with the Rise of the Empire and all those themes related to that. We don't see the normalisation of fascism and authoritarianism amongst the perspective characters, it just kind of happens, and the main characters who are immune to the headchips just kind of scratch their heads. What's more, while I don't like the chips, if they were only here for Order 66, we would at least have the subject matter to explore the clone POV post-Ep3, the most compelling aspect of which, is processing and living with the blood on their hands, even unwillingly so, and the inherent trauma accompanying it. Instead, we get literally the only clones who were sidestepped of that, which really defangs the material. Furthermore, the chips remaining in play to keep the clones loyal means we probably won't ever get to actually see that in any extended form, and it serves to render the clones who did Order 66 as 'others' who are narratively acceptable to kill in droves. It very much unmakes the excellence of TCW's clone plot up until the biochips, and even robs the stock cold sniper of his otherwise well-built-up betrayal by not even having him betray the team - there's no tension when he doesn't even betray after the buildup to it. It captures the dehumanising nature of fascism, but loses the part played by the everyday person in accepting it and apologising or going along with it. The Bad Batch premiere is embarassed to have any of its protagonists to even have been made to commit the atrocity that should define post-Ep3 clones.

It kinda comes back to something @Kylar (sadly seems to have dropped off of SV :() said years ago now, originally on the topic of takes of the Dark Side as an external Thing that contaminates you and makes you do evil, but I feel the main principles apply here on the themes of the Rise of the Empire and the everyday soldier's role in it. I can't find the original since it's buried somewhere in like 400 pages of EU retrospective thread, but the core thesis is this: evil isn't done because some external force forces you - it's because you allow it, go along with it, normalise it, surrender to it, or so on. It's not the dark side, or convenient brainchips, or hard decisions, it's you. And while I can logistically accept the brain chips as a necessity to make O66 happen, despite feeling it's thematically at odds, if we can't even have the clones explore the fallout of that, and narratively treat it like the minute you've been used to kill a Jedi and enact the Rise of the Empire you're not an important character and are tainted... I feel it's going to gut the material which can be explored in this premise. It's the core of why I dislike the chipsplot - in trying to 'explain' something that honestly didn't need anything more than a handwave, it opens a can of worms it cannot hope to deal with.

It doesn't ruin the premiere, and the overall thing is reasonably exciting and watchable, but I think it's the core reason I'm not gelling much with this series as something to get invested in or to make it stand out. This weirdly consistent undercurrent of treating every clone with a functioning chip as immediately tainted.

It's well-shot, well-animated, well-voiced, and even mostly well plotted, but the theme and emotional core just runs at odds with what I feel is important in a Rise of the Empire story.
 
I wonder cynically if the "chips kick in = disposable" thing isn't partly there to buttress TRoS' position on how, if the programming is in place, any Stormtrooper is a fair target. On a purely aesthetic note, they really missed a trick by having the Clones all individually celebrating Palps' speech, instead of doing the single unified salute we saw in TFA.
 
I'll never understand people who complain about the Chips taking away the Clones agency, when the alternative is that the Clones never had agency in the first place.
 
And of course, we'll be arguing over whether Kylo was fascinating and compelling, weak or an advert for fascism for whom we're just meant to feel sorry, until we're all dead. While also arguing over Snoke and whether he really did promise to be the greatest SW villain ever... or whether he was just an empty Mystery Box we all projected into.
Yes, yes, and yes. And yes.

:tongue:
 
Speaking of the 501st wasnt it said in Legends Palpatine had them specifically flown in to Coruscant for the assault on the temple?
 
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