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Star Wars General Discussion Thread

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Oh and since I missed this:
buli-buli said:
I do not like the fact they retconned Kanan's Order 66 experience. I really liked how in the comics
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:V

Not to sound too cynical, but Filoni has been doing this for literally more than a decade now. And it's not even exclusive to him. I would treat anything not in an animated series or theatrical film under the presumption it will inevitably be fired out the airlock one day. It sucks, but it's the way things have been, and will continue to be.
 
Honestly, I think I'm just waiting for Sabine to appear again. I have no attachment to the Bad Batch as characters, so I don't plan on watching the series unless I'm really bored.
 
The Englanderish said:
I'm not entirely sure Sabine will be born yet in the time frame of this series.
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I was speaking of in general Star Wars media. For me, while I do hear about all these new Star Wars products being made, I've pretty much checked out of the franchise since TROS. I see SWTOR is doing every now and then, but they're pretty slow and tend to give mostly bread crumbs whenever something new comes out. Though if anything would attract to the Bad Batch, it would probably be seeing Barris again. She's been gone too long,
 
The Englanderish said:
Not to sound too cynical, but Filoni has been doing this for literally more than a decade now. And it's not even exclusive to him. I would treat anything not in an animated series or theatrical film under the presumption it will inevitably be fired out the airlock one day. It sucks, but it's the way things have been, and will continue to be.
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I'm not sure how much crap Filoni deserved for TCW's edits to EU stuff, those seemed to be basically Lucas and at least in Rebels he seemed fairly respectful of the old EU - getting Zahn to "consult" on Thrawn, for instance.

But honestly yes, anything not filmed (in one way or another) is subject to retcon and I too have said that from basically the beginning. Like, if in 2024 they come out with a Tarkin movie you shouldn't expect that movie to be in any way constrained by the novel of the same name from a decade prior.

In this case though I'd honestly say that the so-called Story Group failed the comic artists in letting them have red colored troopers anyway. That color is rather distinctly Coruscant-based. Changing it to a green makes more sense, IMO. Granted the artists probably didn't know about this show at the time but that just goes back to the point above. As well as the whole campfire vs show portrayal of Order 66; I can honestly see the merits on both approaches but yeah, see above: the films/shows are going to win out.
 
RogueIce said:
I'm not sure how much crap Filoni deserved for TCW's edits to EU stuff, those seemed to be basically Lucas and at least in Rebels he seemed fairly respectful of the old EU - getting Zahn to "consult" on Thrawn, for instance.
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It's not a matter of crap, and more of the basic realities that Filoni has very much been schooled and shaped by Lucas working with him. He brought Zahn on for Thrawn because of sheer unmitigated popularity, but otherwise, he's been relatively consistent in only involving existing EU elements when it suits him to do so, and overwriting quite cheerfully as he needs. It's just kinda the way it be, and sometimes it giveth like excising Travissland, but sometimes it taketh away.

RogueIce said:
That color is rather distinctly Coruscant-based.
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Honestly, I don't see why all reds should have to be Coruscant - there's a limit to how many colours you can get through without using red, and the Coruscant Guard/Shock Troopers kinda have very specific patterns anyway.
 
The Englanderish said:
Honestly, I don't see why all reds should have to be Coruscant - there's a limit to how many colours you can get through without using red, and the Coruscant Guard/Shock Troopers kinda have very specific patterns anyway.
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It isn't even hypothetical for the animated shows to use the same color for multiple groups--I haven't seen any confusion between Plo Koon's forces and Kamino security despite both using grey, in large part because of patterns like you mentioned.
 
buli-buli said:
I do not like the fact they retconned Kanan's Order 66 experience. I really liked how in the comics, they were all just hanging out around a campfire when the order came.
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Like, SW has never really followed either the comics or novels as 'canon'. Literally never, to the best of my knowledge. So why expect that?
 
Honestly, it seems we're back to the old tiers of canon system. Movies are first and foremost canon, TV shows come in second, comics/novels/games and whatever else came in third, and finally stuff like the Lego Star Wars shows and other comedic type things were non-canon.
 
I mean my issue with the Maul revival is how much it ends up NOT mattering. Especially because yes it gives some depth to if we go only by the movies a mere attack dog, and by the old books in Legends, an usually loyal Sith, but all that ends not really mattering because it seems nothing can really interfere with the movies.
 
Personally I barely ever see criticism of zombie robot spider Maul. The effect of this statement is lessened by the fact that of the last four posts, three of them are criticising zombie robot spider Maul in some way but this is very much an outlier for me.

In other news I finished A Certain Point of View Strikes Back yesterday. Pretty fun on the whole, I think it starts getting dragged down towards the end when it starts feeling contrived with how every story is about how they saw parts of the movie at Bespin rather than them having their own story, culminating with the person who gets lost and watches the entire Vader/Luke fight from a distance slightly off camera. But there's also good stuff, the space worm had a good story, the cave on Dagobah, various cogs in the Imperial war machine and how they justify that to themselves, my boy Bossk and the other bounty hunters. All in all I think a bit weaker than the first one but still strong enough for me. I do wonder how they'll manage Return of the Jedi if they do that in a few years. I guess pretty much all the stories'll be set on Jabba's Palace and Barge.
 
BBadolato said:
I mean my issue with the Maul revival is how much it ends up NOT mattering. Especially because yes it gives some depth to if we go only by the movies a mere attack dog, and by the old books in Legends, an usually loyal Sith, but all that ends not really mattering because it seems nothing can really interfere with the movies.
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Honestly? I really disagree. No it can't matter to the films, but expanded material rarely if ever can, and there's plenty of ways things can matter to their own story. And Maul absolutely does matter to TCW's story - which is my main gripe honestly. If he'd ended up not mattering and only turning up in a couple small side ventures, I wouldn't have minded it so much even if I still disliked it. But instead he invades almost every aspect of the story in the late stages of TCW, and even again turns up to devour sections of story in Rebels and other works and he just will not go away. Grievous, Ventress, and Dooku meanwhile, the main villains of the Clone Wars era stories, heavily taper off in the later end of TCW. Somehow, Maul ends up mattering more than Palpy's direct war proxies. And thanks to TCW-and-related-shows' much higher level of 'canon' it's afforded, it's ended up creating this situation where I can't really sit down and check out a star wars story any more without wondering irritably if I'm about to get blindsided by Maul showing up. Which is an issue when he's so flat and one-dimensional but consistently reshapes the direction of any given plot he ends up in. He's like a walking metaphor for George Lucas's relationship with the EU. :V
 
The Englanderish said:
Honestly? I really disagree. No it can't matter to the films, but expanded material rarely if ever can, and there's plenty of ways things can matter to their own story. And Maul absolutely does matter to TCW's story - which is my main gripe honestly. Somehow, Maul ends up mattering more than Palpy's direct war proxies. And thanks to TCW-and-related-shows' much higher level of 'canon' it's afforded, it's ended up creating this situation where I can't really sit down and check out a star wars story any more without wondering irritably if I'm about to get blindsided by Maul showing up. Which is an issue when he's so flat and one-dimensional but consistently reshapes the direction of any given plot he ends up in. He's like a walking metaphor for George Lucas's relationship with the EU. :V
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I meant as in Maul's plot doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Nothing was used with him being a crime lord, all he ends up as is someone who dies to Obi Wan, again. Like the concept of Maul surviving really went nowhere in terms of any decent impact or even an interesting concept.
 
BBadolato said:
I meant as in Maul's plot doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Nothing was used with him being a crime lord, all he ends up as is someone who dies to Obi Wan, again. Like the concept of Maul surviving really went nowhere in terms of any decent impact or even an interesting concept.
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I do like what they did with him as a thematic counterpart to Ahsoka, that was neat. Though I absolutely do wish we had more of Grievous and co driving the story.
 
BBadolato said:
I meant as in Maul's plot doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Nothing was used with him being a crime lord, all he ends up as is someone who dies to Obi Wan, again. Like the concept of Maul surviving really went nowhere in terms of any decent impact or even an interesting concept.
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IDK it had a pretty big impact on Mandalore, the inquisitors, Ezra, etc. Grand scheme is overrated.
 
The Englanderish said:
IDK it had a pretty big impact on Mandalore, the inquisitors, Ezra, etc. Grand scheme is overrated.
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I don't consider Rebels that important, although it's more from a personal perspective than any real impact. I've come to see as more the struggle of one rebel cell than anything else, not that I would say it's a bad show, it just strikes me as well done side story. I still feel Maul was just poorly used, perhaps because I was more interested in the concept of a former Sith turned crime lord, who could have feasibly made it past ROTJ, and may have been the Prince Xizor I never got but always wanted. Instead he basically just comes back to lose said criminal empire, kill a bunch of bargain bin Dark Jedi, screw about with a rebel cell and then actually die to Obi Wan this time.
 
The Englanderish said:
Honestly? I really disagree. No it can't matter to the films, but expanded material rarely if ever can, and there's plenty of ways things can matter to their own story. And Maul absolutely does matter to TCW's story - which is my main gripe honestly. If he'd ended up not mattering and only turning up in a couple small side ventures, I wouldn't have minded it so much even if I still disliked it. But instead he invades almost every aspect of the story in the late stages of TCW, and even again turns up to devour sections of story in Rebels and other works and he just will not go away. Grievous, Ventress, and Dooku meanwhile, the main villains of the Clone Wars era stories, heavily taper off in the later end of TCW. Somehow, Maul ends up mattering more than Palpy's direct war proxies. And thanks to TCW-and-related-shows' much higher level of 'canon' it's afforded, it's ended up creating this situation where I can't really sit down and check out a star wars story any more without wondering irritably if I'm about to get blindsided by Maul showing up. Which is an issue when he's so flat and one-dimensional but consistently reshapes the direction of any given plot he ends up in. He's like a walking metaphor for George Lucas's relationship with the EU. :V
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That's because Greivous and Dooku's fates were already established by the movies. Maul was a villain whose actions during the end of the Clone Wars they could control completely, so he made more sense to have as a major focus.
 
Jcogginsa said:
That's because Greivous and Dooku's fates were already established by the movies. Maul was a villain whose actions during the end of the Clone Wars they could control completely, so he made more sense to have as a major focus.
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The problem is that not only is Maul's fate not decided, but Dooku and Grievous are like, hardly in the later series. I'm not even talking final arc episode, Grievous just kinda checks out after series 5, and Dooku's only nominally around for that Tyrannus investigation episode that isn't even really about him. You can do a lot with a character without covering their fate - look at Labyrinth of Evil, that runs about as close to Ep3 as you can get and features both very highly. Then there's Ventress, who they straight up remove from the narrative specifically to insert Maul and she's bumped off in the mess that is Dark Disciple. It's all just really weird, especially since Maul literally can't face off with Obi-Wan since they insist on keeping him alive, and instead he's punted off to fight Ahsoka, a character he has no tangible connection to. They very distinctly make a concerted creative choice to focus on Maul as the villian for most of the latter stages of TCW, and they don't need to.
 
Jcogginsa said:
That's because Greivous and Dooku's fates were already established by the movies. Maul was a villain whose actions during the end of the Clone Wars they could control completely, so he made more sense to have as a major focus.
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To be fair Maul's fate was equally established by the movies. I understand the meaning that post retcon they could do whatever they want with him but he was very clearly dead in Phantom Menace.
 
The Englanderish said:
The problem is that not only is Maul's fate not decided, but Dooku and Grievous are like, hardly in the later series. I'm not even talking final arc episode, Grievous just kinda checks out after series 5, and Dooku's only nominally around for that Tyrannus investigation episode that isn't even really about him. You can do a lot with a character without covering their fate - look at Labyrinth of Evil, that runs about as close to Ep3 as you can get and features both very highly. Then there's Ventress, who they straight up remove from the narrative specifically to insert Maul and she's bumped off in the mess that is Dark Disciple. It's all just really weird, especially since Maul literally can't face off with Obi-Wan since they insist on keeping him alive, and instead he's punted off to fight Ahsoka, a character he has no tangible connection to. They very distinctly make a concerted creative choice to focus on Maul as the villian for most of the latter stages of TCW, and they don't need to.
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Greivous and Dooku's personalities were also substantially more defined going into Clone Wars, whereas Maul was a blank slate

Maul fighting Ahsoka in the Clone Wars finale is likely down to the production order.

They likely would have wanted Maul to fight Obi-Wan in Clone Wars, but it ended before they got there. So they introduced him in Rebels so they could do that, and gave him the attempted Mentorship of Ezra so he'd have a reason to be there. Then they got that last season of Clone Wars, and needed something to do with him
 
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