Star Wars General Discussion Thread

[bluntblade]

See, my problem here is that this presumes that there was any explicit intent in the purpose or the role of the new characters. A ST that knew what it was trying to do (make a story about the old trio's legacy more than anything else) would have likely dispensed with the likes of Poe/Finn/Rose as anything more than tertiary characters cause they don't actually factor into the main plot in the slightest. They don't actually enhance the nostalgia pandering or relate to the Kylo Ren redemption plot in any meaningful way. The problem with the new characters is not what they intended to do with them. It's the absolute lack of any meaningful intent for their place in the trilogy. They're vague half baked concepts that were shoved in without an idea of what they were supposed to do.

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I'd say that Johnson knew what he wanted to do with them. Honestly for me it feels like he had to put a lot into the new characters to give them much to meaningfully do beyond reflect the glories of the old ones. Rey, Rose and Finn's arcs are all in service of the message that a total nobody, in the right place and at the right time, can change the Galaxy. Even Johnson's treatment of the Resistance pilots reinforces this - an initially nameless pilot becomes the main character for a few minutes and saves the Resistance. Luke's arc ultimately ends up at the same place - legends won't save us but good, flawed people will.

But none of that matters in the long run because the final film refused to do anything with the roles and arcs that were developed for them in that film.

 

[SGTschlock]

I'd say that Johnson knew what he wanted to do with them. Honestly for me it feels like he had to put a lot into the new characters to give them much to meaningfully do beyond reflect the glories of the old ones. But none of that matters in the long run because the final film refused to do anything with the roles and arcs that were developed for them.

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I disagree with you there. Not because I'm a Rian Johnson hater, but because I think people underestimate how awkward TFA left the entire trilogy. And just how monumental a task it would have been for the sequel movie to course correct.

The ST is fundamentally hobbled by the fact that regardless of what roles you try to give Finn or Poe, they ultimately don't matter to the Kylo/Rey plotline. Which plotwise, is the real emotional heart of the trilogy. Finn is a stranger that Rey has maybe known for a day. Poe is a stranger who she has never met. They are utterly irrelevant to the implicit emotional stakes around whether or not Ben Solo can be redeemed or not. Nor is their character development appurtenant or significant to the other major characters. While TLJ did a lot to setup a possible interesting finale for the nostalgia oriented plot for Kylo and the OT characters, it didn't workout how the new characters would factor into that.

Part of the issue for me is that I don't buy that TLJ really did much to build on the potential of characters like Finn. The strongest aspect of his character, of whether or not Stormtroopers can be redeemed/saved, is just as unexplored in TLJ as it was in TFA. That ultimately leaves his role in the series feeling pretty nebulous. Especially since he has no direct involvement with the Kylo Ren redemption plot line beyond Rey deciding to force push him out of it.

 

[bluntblade]

To be honest, I thought there were two threads being developed, and Finn, Rose and Poe were being positioned to head up the wider conflict against the First Order - as they did in Trevorrow's script.

What Trevorrow didn't do was to bridge that with Kylo's downfall or redemption, when either of those could have thematic oomph to spare.

 

[Night]

The strongest aspect of his character, of whether or not Stormtroopers can be redeemed/saved, is just as unexplored in TLJ as it was in TFA.

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"You were always scum."
"Rebel scum."

Dunno, I feel it did make a statement here.

 

[Darthtabby]

The ST has basically been unsure of how to balance telling a story with the old characters while passing the torch to a new generation of heroes from the start. When thats combined with how rushed the production of all these films was, it was kinda inevitable the writing would end up following the path of least resistance towards the old characters being main focus, with everyone else becoming redundant and/deadweight.

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I feel like TLJ actually engaged with the question of "where should Star Wars go from here?" as a sort of meta level theme. It was one of the things I liked about the film.

 

[Jcogginsa]

Let's be honest, It's not as if Han Solo played a huge part in the Luke/Vader storyline. Finn and Poe didn't really need a substantial role in the Rey/Kylo plot

 

[SGTschlock]

Let's be honest, It's not as if Han Solo played a huge part in the Luke/Vader storyline. Finn and Poe didn't really need a substantial role in the Rey/Kylo plot

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Keep in mind that Luke/Vader wasn't a thing at all in ANH. That was a standalone film where the plot is entirely about the original fellowship of heroes, which Han is an essential part of. Which meant Han/Leia could be used as a Segway to the Luke/Vader storyline by being the fire forged friends who Vader can threaten to lure Luke into their final dramatic confrontation. And by Jedi, Han technically not factoring in that much into the Luke/Vader storyline is mitigated by the previously established strong character dynamics.

Rey/Kylo is not only center stage much sooner than Luke/Vader, but it comes up before Rey can spend a meaningful amount of time with Finn or *any* with Poe. While Finn/Poe might not need a substantial role in the Kylo/Rey plot, their total character disconnect from Rey herself for pretty much the entire ST is a major problem. Quite frankly, they're about as important to Rey as Wedge was to Luke in the OT*. There's just not a personal context for them being in narrative focus versus any other rando members of the Resistance who our herione could be just as detached from.

*Seriously, cut Finn/Poe from the movies aside from them being recurring biy players who happen to be present at big events with the hero, and noooot a lot changes for Rey's story arc in the movies on the whole.

"You were always scum."
"Rebel scum."

Dunno, I feel it did make a statement here.

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Ah yes, very bold. Finn was always destined by unconditional force election to be redeemed and become a rebel. All the other child soldiers are filthy reprobates who can go and die

It's a semicatchy one liner, but its silly to think it really explores the implications of the Storm Troopers as slave soldiers.

 

[bluntblade]

But the predestination thing was only locked in by Abrams. Incidentally I really hate the moral implications there: the guy who helps himself to the throne out of entitlement must be saved at all costs, but the story tells us that unless magic turns his slave-soldiers good, they are irredeemable and must all be wiped out.

I will grant that Abrams ultimately had basically no interest in anyone who wasn't Ben Solo, and Rey got more attention because she was needed to help facilitate his redemption and reward him with love. Man, that feels gross to type.

Also Johnson's whole thing with her threatened to be sacrilege against old Stsr Wars so we had to get that undone.

I feel like TLJ actually engaged with the question of "where should Star Wars go from here?" as a sort of meta level theme. It was one of the things I liked about the film.

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Johnson misunderstood his brief. He was being paid to venerate old stories, not tell a new one.

"You were always scum."
"Rebel scum."

Dunno, I feel it did make a statement here.

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But now we know it was just the Force steering him to Canto Bight or whatever, so he could carry out his ordained purpose and kill Stormtroopers. Ultimately Finn's heroism doesn't belong to him any more than Rey's importance does to her. They're just the Light Side's pieces on the chess board.

I will just cop to the fact that I was wrong about what the films are about and recognise that Star Wars isn't for me, not really. Star Wars is ultimately a power fantasy about being the Chosen One, and I don't want any part of that.

 

[SGTschlock]

But the predestination thing was only locked in by Abrams. Incidentally I really hate the moral implications there: the guy who helps himself to the throne out of entitlement must be saved at all costs, but the story tells us that unless magic turns his slave-soldiers good, they are irredeemable and must all be wiped out.

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Sure, but its not like Rian Johnson does much introspection about Finn being a child soldier or how that relates to the other Storm Troopers in his movie either. Thats not entirely on Johnson given what Abrams left him to work with character and plot wise TFA's ending. But I dont think Johnson deserves particular accolades just for coasting on one of JJ's bad ideas.

I will grant that Abrams ultimately had basically no interest in anyone who wasn't Ben Solo, and Rey got more attention because she was needed to help facilitate his redemption and reward him with love. Man, that feels gross to type.

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What's funny is JJ still managed to fail making Ben Solo the focus. Ben Solo's post redemption amounts to a light Saber fight, falling down a hole, kissing his waifu, then dying. Doesn't even get the benefit of appearing as a force ghost. If you were here for the Ben Solo ride, you got to be disappointed along with everybody else.

 

[bluntblade]

My point was more that Johnson actually gave him a full arc. The child soldier thing is a fair gripe, but I don't know how that would work when it wasn't an issue acknowledged in the previous film.

 

[LordDarthYoda]

I'm still disappointed how much of a fake out Phasma was. She was like Boba Fett but with more marketing around making her sound like a big deal. Plus her novel in between 7 and 8 made her sound like an awesome strategic Xena type who'd stab you in the back as soon as she could to keep her power but also string you along just so she could watch you suffer. But no she gets punked out twice!

 

[bluntblade]

Phasma deserved a better innings in her first film (she's just there to look scary and doesn't take an active part in any of the fights). When VIII rolls around, I don't have any problem with her going down to serve Finn's arc. At least there she's an active threat.

 

[SGTschlock]

I'm still disappointed how much of a fake out Phasma was. She was like Boba Fett but with more marketing around making her sound like a big deal. Plus her novel in between 7 and 8 made her sound like an awesome strategic Xena type who'd stab you in the back as soon as she could to keep her power but also string you along just so she could watch you suffer. But no she gets punked out twice!

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I think Lucasfilm took the wrong lesson from Boba Fett's surprise popularity. Just because a minor character who didn't do much happened to get inexplicably popular, doesn't mean you should plan around a do nothing character achieving the same.

 

[bluntblade]

Actually, Boba Fett did a fair bit in his first film and is treated like a guy who is dangerous and knows his job. Phasma, ironically, becomes credibly dangerous in her death scene, nearly killing Finn. Of course there's her other death scene, which was cut for pacing and I'm still sad that happened because it gives us Finn reaching for an option other than killing Stormtroopers.

I'm quite keen to do a fic with a scary cyborg Phasma which recycles that scene in some way.

 

[Jcogginsa]

I'm still disappointed how much of a fake out Phasma was. She was like Boba Fett but with more marketing around making her sound like a big deal. Plus her novel in between 7 and 8 made her sound like an awesome strategic Xena type who'd stab you in the back as soon as she could to keep her power but also string you along just so she could watch you suffer. But no she gets punked out twice!

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What happened with Phasma was essentially that the marketing team wasn't given very many plot details for TFA, in order to avoid spoilers, so they marketed Phasma heavily due to her look, without knowing anything about her

 

[bluntblade]

What happened with Phasma was essentially that the marketing team wasn't given very many plot details for TFA, in order to avoid spoilers, so they marketed Phasma heavily due to her look, without knowing anything about her

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I wonder if this also explains Finn's treatment in part, along with Abrams hiding Rey's Jedi potential behind him.

 

[bluntblade]

Question: is it me, or does Star Wars, despite its Kurosawa influence, make surprisingly little use of weather? Not even just in Pathetic Fallacy terms, but using it to heighten drama.

There's a fair bit on Ach-To, with Rey struggling through heavy rain after Luke and their scrap taking place during a storm, but otherwise I've got basically nothing coming to mind except perhaps Eadu in Rogue One.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

There's a fair bit on Ach-To, with Rey struggling through heavy rain after Luke and their scrap taking place during a storm

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There's Obi-Wan's and Jango's fight in Kamino's storm, Luke's struggling through the storm on Hoth after escaping the wampa (and Han's follow-on bit), but yeah, it's pretty sparse. Of course, much of Star Wars takes place in the desert, which has exactly one kind of weather most of the time.

 

[bluntblade]

There's Obi-Wan's and Jango's fight in Kamino's storm, Luke's struggling through the storm on Hoth after escaping the wampa (and Han's follow-on bit), but yeah, it's pretty sparse. Of course, much of Star Wars takes place in the desert, which has exactly one kind of weather most of the time.

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Kamino's weather doesn't really express any emotion though, if I recall. So I kind of wrote that one off.

 

[BossFight]

Question: is it me, or does Star Wars, despite its Kurosawa influence, make surprisingly little use of weather? Not even just in Pathetic Fallacy terms, but using it to heighten drama.

There's a fair bit on Ach-To, with Rey struggling through heavy rain after Luke and their scrap taking place during a storm, but otherwise I've got basically nothing coming to mind except perhaps Eadu in Rogue One.

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It tends to use planets instead of weather to set the scene.

Mustafar's volcano's the cityscape of coruscant etc

 

[bluntblade]

Mustafar probably counts in its own right. And I guess the violent sea in TRoS.

 

[Renewal]

Question: is it me, or does Star Wars, despite its Kurosawa influence, make surprisingly little use of weather? Not even just in Pathetic Fallacy terms, but using it to heighten drama.

There's a fair bit on Ach-To, with Rey struggling through heavy rain after Luke and their scrap taking place during a storm, but otherwise I've got basically nothing coming to mind except perhaps Eadu in Rogue One.

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There's also Rey vs Kylo on the ruins of the Death Star, which has overcast skies and turbulent seas, and it is pretty much Kylo's turning point in TROS. Barring the resolution with Leia, I think it's my favorite scene in TROS.

EDIT: Oh, and actually ninja'd by you lol.

 

[bluntblade]

I feel like "turning point" is overstating it somewhat. A switch gets flipped and suddenly he's Ben Solo.

Incidentally I count that as the one moment where Driver and Ridley were finally overwhelmed by the material. I know I'm meant to be watching a heart-rending declaration of love and a man processing the ruination of his soul, but it ends up as Ridley just awkwardly blurting blunt dialogue at a befuddled, soggy man.

 

[Sumanai]

With Phasma, I am legit disappointed she didn't come back for the third film. I mean, she seemingly died off-screen in the first movie, only to be revealed that No, I'm actually fine.

So why NOT bring her back in the third film and complete the recurring motif? This is a franchise that loves it's cyborgs and mutilated bodies, and Phasma already had a cool, marketable image.

I guess what I'm saying is, they could have gone full-Vader with her in the third film and they didn't. I mean, if you brought her back, then at least Finn has a specific enemy he can take on, while Poe get's Admiral Only-Here-For-The-Finale or a dogfight or something.

 

[LordDarthYoda]

With Phasma, I am legit disappointed she didn't come back for the third film. I mean, she seemingly died off-screen in the first movie, only to be revealed that No, I'm actually fine.

So why NOT bring her back in the third film and complete the recurring motif? This is a franchise that loves it's cyborgs and mutilated bodies, and Phasma already had a cool, marketable image.

I guess what I'm saying is, they could have gone full-Vader with her in the third film and they didn't. I mean, if you brought her back, then at least Finn has a specific enemy he can take on, while Poe get's Admiral Only-Here-For-The-Finale or a dogfight or something.

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A zombie Phasma leading an undead Sith cult army! Seems right up Palpatine's alley.