Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

Yeah, although this is also a Shugo Chara/SMT setting which does change the focus too.

You have any idea how we can IC come to the conclusion we are in the Collective Unconsciousness?

A stunt along these lines would probably need the following components:
1) Something is wrong
2) But this is a "reality" problem
3) Therefore, we need to reimpose the actual way of things (Strings & Songs, Performance)
4) Maybe Amu can assist by reducing the "impedance"? (Not sure how yet, Illusion 1/Dreamwalking 1/Empathy 2 isn't a lot)
 
I'm not good at stunting, and I was kinda intending for my vote to use Nero200's stunt. I'll edit my vote to make that clear.

Add: And that's a fair point (about better options being harder to pull off), but when the QM's commenting about how it's a shame that the more narratively-interesting option is disadvantaged compared to another one, I feel somewhat compelled to note that it doesn't have to be that way, especially when it comes to Exalted.
I would like to point out that this is Baughn saying "narratively-interesting."

He throws 10 year old psuedo-magical girls into SMT for funsies.

And likely means "interesting" in the Chinese sense. I know Baughn by now.
You have any idea how we can IC come to the conclusion we are in the Collective Unconsciousness?
Well, Amu nor Utau even know the CU as being a thing in the first place, so...

Dia probably does, but Dia is Dia.
 
Clairvoyance/Precog scaling
Edited into the post. For convenience:




Clairvoyance

At zero dots: You can guess what's on the other side of a card someone is holding—if you're concentrating—and thereby cheat at poker. It won't be perfect, but you'll be banned from Las Vegas in a hurry.

There are two variants of present-tense clairvoyance: "Vague impressions" and "clear sight". The information feed is the same for both, but it's too much information; the latter must always be focused on a smaller area, the definition of which varies with rating. Clairvoyance can be trained towards one or the other.
  1. Limited clairvoyance. This might take the form of a mental eye you can move anywhere within your field of view, or it might give you a second sense for everything happening within fifteen metres of yourself—good for dodging, not useful as vision—but it won't do both for the same person.

  2. Clarity reaches the level of your regular senses, within that same fifteen-metre range. The range limit for vaguer impressions, however, extends to the limit of your mental range. There's a lot of dials this can balance, and in practice it'll be different from each person; Clairvoyance is also the psionic skill with the most subtypes. Amu has the 'base' form, so in her case this is how it works, but at higher levels she effectively needs to decide which subtype she wants to have.

  3. Postcognition becomes possible: Tracing back the provenance of a physical object. That includes "this piece of ground", to be clear, but equally well "this letter". At three dots, you'll be lucky to manage a week.
    The 'clear focus' range triples, and clairvoyants at this level are often able to move that area around; it's no longer anchored on themselves.

  4. If the clairvoyant is still focused simply on range, then their skill would manifest as limited omniscience within their mental range at this point; nothing escapes their sight, assuming of course that 'nothing' hasn't been shielded against them. In practice this is far too much information for anyone to handle, and someone who tries it regardless—or is forced to do so—would likely lose their ability to act independently of outside assistance. Exceptions may exist, but Amu isn't one of them—it would require superhuman attribute and ability values, i.e. above five.

    There are other development paths. One is to instead extend the 'depth' of the sight, seeing things beyond regular vision. Magic; ongoing rituals such as Hikawa's, the weak points of Kagutsuchi, and similar. Another, fairly obviously, is to extend the range of her post-cognition. A third is to extend the depth of the post-cognition, which might then allow you to understand how an object is used, simply by touching it. This is the default option for Amu.

    On a sidenote: At four dots it would also be possible to use Clairvoyance for mind-reading, should you train it in that direction.

  5. Do you want the Number Man? This is how you get the Number Man.

    Ahem. At its maximum peak, the branches of clairvoyance would normally fold back in; you get all of the above, at maximum range, all of the time. It is almost entirely impossible for any sapient being to achieve this point and remain sapient, unfortunately. That does not entirely mean the dots can't be taken; but they would need to be coupled with a form of cognitive engineering that filters the input, preventing it from overloading the user. If it's then also supposed to be useful, it would need to be hooked directly to their reactions... at which point the user is no longer in control of their own actions.
Special note: 'Vague impressions' suffices to prevent any form of surprise attack while you aren't truly distracted. 'Clear sight' allows you to add your Clairvoyance rating to Dodge rolls, up to two dice, assuming you can see it coming. Similar distinctions apply for other uses of the skill. This overlaps with the bonus from Precognition.

In practice, "three dots" is the maximum rating for Clairvoyance that's viable for a regular human. To push it beyond that point it needs to be limited in some form, or else its user will cease to be human. Specialisations are very much viable; focusing on combat usage, for example.

It's the odd one out, as scaling can't be handled simply by adding overgrowth machinery; the information needs to be actually processed to be useful.

Precognition

At zero dots: Nothing notable that can't be mistaken for vague feelings of doom about upcoming tests.

Extra special note: The size of the event matters. The larger it looms in the future, due to either high probability or high impact, the longer the range and higher the chance a precog will spot it. This means the literal apocalypse, which is an almost completely inevitable event that affects the entire world, can be spotted a year out even at one dot; meanwhile, Amu's english scores would take five dots to predict precisely.
  1. At one dot, only uncontrollable but fundamentally predictable natural phenomena can really be predicted. The weather, with high likelihood of success, for three days or less; although the weather report does it better. The flight path of a bullet that's already in flight, and within your mental range. Your chances of acing the last English test.

    That last one is a joke; precognition can't predict that. However, at a single dot it registers as vague senses of doom or potential wetness; if Amu's English scores are genuinely predictable (which they are), then there is no way for her to distinguish her perfectly ordinary conscious prediction of doom from the one she might have gotten from precognition.

  2. Still limited to events within your mental range, but the foresight becomes clearer; as in, you'll know when it happens. At this rating you're as good as the weather report. Some conditional events can be predicted, if the condition is already set in stone; for example, you would be able to predict when a timed bomb will go off. Assuming it's sometime in the next day or so.

  3. Forget the time limit on that bomb; add the ability to predict complicated machinery, again within a day or so. Anything at the level of a computer remains beyond what precognition can handle, but weirdly, many humans become somewhat predictable. This isn't necessarily beyond what a three-dot Socialize ability can provide... but doesn't requite socialisation, though it in fact doesn't apply as well to strangers.

    Predictions at this point start failing in strange ways. While a weather mistake might just mean it's drizzling instead of overcast, precog gets more and more chaotic as you attack harder problems; it's more likely than not that not a single element of the prediction will come true.

  4. ...this is because there are multiple futures, as any precognitive will eventually realise. By the time they reach four dots, they're no longer limited to a glimpse of a single one; they can get glimpses of all of them, and predictions become more a range of possible outcomes than a single hopefully-most-likely possibility.

    (Literally. Megaten runs on many-worlds quantum mechanics, with added cross-world interference.)

  5. ...and multiple presents. Why not look into a different present? ...why not cooperate with them?

    Only information can be transferred, at least by the precog, but nothing stops you cooperating with yourself in a different timeline. This has interesting implications, although there aren't as many timelines as it feels like there should be, and far fewer than science would predict. There's a reason for that, which psionics will not provide.
Special note: Your precognition rating can, at all times, be added to dodge rolls in combat; up to a maximum of two dice, in ordinary circumstances. That's as far as precognition applied to motoric nerves (or similar) will take you. This overlaps with the bonus from clairvoyance.

Additionally, Outsiders / Demons of Makai / Exaltation Shards et cetera always disrupt precognition, simply by their nature. They can only be accounted for post-fact.
 
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Special note: Your precognition rating can, at all times, be added to dodge rolls in combat; up to a maximum of two dice, in ordinary circumstances. That's as far as precognition applied to motoric nerves (or similar) will take you. This overlaps with the bonus from clairvoyance.

Additionally, Outsiders / Demons of Makai / Exaltation Shards et cetera always disrupt precognition, simply by their nature. They can only be accounted for post-fact.
This part confuses me a bit. Like, can the precog rating be applied to dodging attacks from demons? I would hope so, because we're going to be dealing with a lot of those later on..

Alright, just making it clear, cause Nero barely saved the last girl from dying by giving her one out of two literally priceless artifacts.
Duly noted.
 
This part confuses me a bit. Like, can the precog rating be applied to dodging attacks from demons? I would hope so, because we're going to be dealing with a lot of those later on..
Usually. It can't predict if a demon is about to break into reality, but once it's already there... yes. It may be able to predict that a demon is about to be summoned, but not what sort. And so on.

Basically it's range-limited to the inside of Kagutsuchi, which is just another way of saying that, like all of these, it's range-limited.
 
I mean, yeah, but "interesting in the Chinese sense" tends to make a better story, so...
I'd like to point out that this is a preference, not a universal truth. I see this kind of blind spot a lot - people not realizing that their preferences are preferences.

Bad shit happening can help drive a story, but "more bad shit" doesn't mean "better story" any more than "more salt" means "better food".

...this is because there are multiple futures, as any precognitive will eventually realise. By the time they reach four dots, they're no longer limited to a glimpse of a single one; they can get glimpses of all of them, and predictions become more a range of possible outcomes than a single hopefully-most-likely possibility.

(Literally. Megaten runs on many-worlds quantum mechanics, with added cross-world interference.)
I get the feeling this is connected to what Ragged Crossroads does with the past.

...and multiple presents. Why not look into a different present? ...why not cooperate with them?

Only information can be transferred, at least by the precog, but nothing stops you cooperating with yourself in a different timeline. This has interesting implications, although there aren't as many timelines as it feels like there should be, and far fewer than science would predict. There's a reason for that, which psionics will not provide.
Well, that's a weird thing to put at precog 5.
 
I'd like to point out that this is a preference, not a universal truth. I see this kind of blind spot a lot - people not realizing that their preferences are preferences.

Bad shit happening can help drive a story, but "more bad shit" doesn't mean "better story" any more than "more salt" means "better food".
I don't think I'd describe what Utau would be doing there as 'bad', especially if she succeeds. It would give you information that would otherwise be hard to come by, nobody would die, on a success Yui would breathe a deep sigh of relief. But it certainly isn't unequivocally 'good' either, so...

I think I'm perfectly fine not giving that option any bonus dice. If you guys decide to vote for it anyway, then- well, by this point you have been warned.

Interesting, yes. It is that, in a somewhat Chinese sense.
 
Usually. It can't predict if a demon is about to break into reality, but once it's already there... yes. It may be able to predict that a demon is about to be summoned, but not what sort. And so on.

Basically it's range-limited to the inside of Kagutsuchi, which is just another way of saying that, like all of these, it's range-limited.
So if we're in active combat with a demon, the dodge bonus still applies. And potentially applies to humans using demon-summoning rituals (including Nicaea), since that's occuring inside Kagutsuchi. I'm not familiar enough with DS2 to say whether that's likely to be very relevant or not, but my vague memories are favoring "not".

Anyways, I was mostly worried that some of our primary enemies in the future would be able to ignore the dodge bonus, so this is good.
I'd like to point out that this is a preference, not a universal truth. I see this kind of blind spot a lot - people not realizing that their preferences are preferences.

Bad shit happening can help drive a story, but "more bad shit" doesn't mean "better story" any more than "more salt" means "better food".
Hey, "more salt" does equal "better food"... in my opinion, which kinda proves your point.

Anyways, you're right that "more bad shit" doesn't equal "better story", because that's how you get stuff like 40K. But I firmly believe that some "bad shit" - stuff that's interesting in the Chinese sense - is necessary to write a meaningful story. Without some form of conflict, a story cannot be truly compelling. Even the most trash isekai do follow that rule - even if the protagonist wins every fight easily, there still is a fight.

... I'm not really sure where I'm going with this anymore.
 
But it certainly isn't unequivocally 'good' either, so...
Well, squashing a segment of CU back into K-reality would definitely have interesting aftereffects, to say nothing of what it would do to Yui's (uncontrollable) powers?

Alright, just making it clear, cause Nero barely saved the last girl from dying by giving her one out of two literally priceless artifacts.
Well, I for one consider it worth? It's not even permanently losing it, since we'll likely get it back before the apocalypse?
If only our problems were that easy to handle KEK
 
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Which means you don't get a terrible outcome, but also means you won't get the best one.
What exactly do you consider to be the "best" outcome?

I was working under the assumption that the best possible outcome would be to retrieve the Scavengers alive and healthy (or at least, with no further damage than they've already incurred, which was probably extensive even before they got sucked into this cognitive domain) and additionally for Yui to walk out of it with her Persona/Shadow more permanently stable than it was before, thereby avoiding this sort of thing accidentally happening again. Without the baggage that would come from dragging JPs into the whole thing.

I don't see how Ami and Hikaru joining would prevent us from accomplishing that. Even holding down the clawed shadow would be easier with Hikaru and Ami there, to the point of overkill.

Is there really anything to gain that could somehow only be achieved if Ami and Hikaru weren't helping?

The only thing I can think of potentially losing out on is Midori somehow awakening a Persona by trying to fight the clawed shadow in lieu of her daughters handling it and I'm not sure if that's even possible, unless that clawed shadow happens to be her own.
 
Is there really anything to gain that could somehow only be achieved if Ami and Hikaru weren't helping?
It's because Ami will advise against riskier approaches, and we will accept that advice (otherwise why are we calling her?), and successfully executing on one those approaches is required for the "best" outcome. It's not that it's physically impossible, it's just that that option means deciding not to risk it.
 
best possible outcome
My interpretation, descending order of priority:
1) We do not die, or be permanently harmed
2) Yui (or whoever else is here) is safely retrieved without further harm, and does not have to deal with this again (keeping a Persona/Shadow is optional, as far as I care)
3) We manage to keep the Dumpty Key :V
(JPs/Lulu has been conclusively ruled out as a option we'd like to take in previous discussion)

The Midori option may fail priority 2's second half, but otherwise should reasonably work?
 
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It's because Ami will advise against riskier approaches, and we will accept that advice (otherwise why are we calling her?), and successfully executing on one those approaches is required for the "best" outcome. It's not that it's physically impossible, it's just that that option means deciding not to risk it.
And exactly what is that "best" outcome meant to be, that it requires a "risky approach" to achieve?

If we did it the "normal" way - fought Yui's Shadow and had her to talk to it, I don't really see what the risk would be. Especially when Hikaru could likely keep that thing held down for an extended period in a telekinetic chokehold with no additional assistance.

If it requires a riskier approach than that, it implies the "best" outcome is something that doesn't just end with Yui taming her Shadow.
 
...also, there's no Yui around to talk to her Shadow, is there?
That's one of the things I was hoping Ami could confirm - whether or not the Yui seen strapped to the chair in the room is the actual Yui and not just a lookalike construct, which could be equally likely.

And even if Hikaru can't hold it down, Ami probably could and we've been told even just Amu and Utau are "overlevelled" for it, which means there's not much risk in confronting it.

Which begs the question of what kind of outcome could be "better", that requires a course of action which Ami wouldn't advise.

Unless Ami would just advise against confronting the shadow outright, when that's the best outcome?
 
And exactly what is that "best" outcome meant to be, that it requires a "risky approach" to achieve?

If we did it the "normal" way - fought Yui's Shadow and had her to talk to it, I don't really see what the risk would be. Especially when Hikaru could likely keep that thing held down for an extended period in a telekinetic chokehold with no additional assistance.

If it requires a riskier approach than that, it implies the "best" outcome is something that doesn't just end with Yui taming her Shadow.
We've been told, explicitly, that Ami's advice for places like this is to stay out of them. I think you are envisioning the characters here as having a lot more meta-knowledge then they actually do.
 
......If she actually gives that as advice, it would be useless advice and Amu couldn't follow it. Because that's advising them all to just run back home and leave Yui to get eaten by her Shadow. Which at this point is basically impossible to have happen.
 
......If she actually gives that as advice, it would be useless advice and Amu couldn't follow it. Because that's advising them all to just run back home and leave Yui to get eaten by her Shadow. Which at this point is basically impossible to have happen.
What I mean is that Ami is not a Persona protagonist who has done a dozen of these and knows they're just an excuse to have a JRPG dungeon, she's a dream walker who has seen places like this, and hopefully knows something about them, but who mostly stays out of them and doesn't know from experience that you can always solve everything by fighting the final boss (or whatever the reified version of Persona's mechanics is here, this is not a request to have those mechanics explained). Her advice will reflect this.
 
Her lack of experience - assuming this is the case and she hasn't been swapping notes with Teddie - will be reflected in a lack of useful advice. And if she simply can't give any immediately helpful suggestions, I'm just not seeing how Ami being there stops their party from doing any of the things that they would have done without her there (assuming those other courses of action do, in fact, have a possibility of leading to the "best" outcome and it's not something else entirely that needs to be done to trigger it, that Ami's presence would prevent).

For Ami's advice to be what prevents the "best" outcome, it wouldn't just need to be insubstantial, it would actually need to be bad.

The alternative is that the "best outcome" can only be achieved by a confluence of coincidence and blind luck that is offset by severe repercussions in the event their luck falls through, that Ami would advise against relying on.

And then that comes back to the question of exactly what kind of "good outcome" would require relying on this kind of luck to achieve.
 
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