Abduction and torture of "suspicious" kids in the case of Yota. All the caged Bird stuff. Most of what Ibiki does in T&I (including, as mentioned, to kids). The Chuunin Exams in general is pretty horrible.
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Second Life Begin Again (A Naruto Reincarnation Quest)
- Thread starter Magoose
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Magoose
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Though I am going to say they are more comparable to live-fire exercises (where accidents happen) then fights to the death.
The whole Forest Of Death part isn't monitored in any way. You can kill anyone and everyone you like in there. I understand the in universe logic, live-fire exercises like you said, but that doesn't change that they put up with a fairly high mortality rate just to show off to investors.
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It's also a sink or swim kind of test. I mean put yourself in the position of the Village Leaders.
You throw in a bunch of Genin from newbies to fairly experienced in a high stress Life-or-Death situation, those that make it out? Great you now have a very skilled and experienced Ninja in your service who has gone through some shit and came out of it on top.
They die? Well clearly they don't have what it takes to live this life and are better of trimmed. What if they freeze up on a future important mission and fuck things up for everyone? Along with all sorts of rather obvious reasons I should say that don't need mentioning.
The Ninja culture as a whole puts way more importance on Quality then Quantity...what's the death of a dozen Genin every other year compared to the 'Greater Good' ?
Yeah, Konoha is cool with a lot of things we, IRL, find rather bad. They are a very pragmatic sort even if they are the good guys, as long as Orochimaru used the appropriate test subjects (Bandits, enemy ninja, people slated for a death sentence, etc), they probably wouldn't have had a problem.
I think you autocorrected it wrong. As the only Kote I can find in Naruto is the forearm device in Boruto.
While it is bad it is rarely used and the few times it is used is mostly in flashbacks. Besides Orochimaru littearly kidnaps civilian kids, experiments on them which most likely kills them, and might have continued if he wasn't found out.
I'm pretty sure he does psychological and we never see how bad he goes, except anime arcs which I don't think is canon in this quest or even in reality.
I'm pretty sure a chance of death isn't as bad as experimenting on civilians and most likely kills them.
Yeah, remembered the name wrong. It was Yota.
I'm pretty sure enslaving a few hundred people is as bad as kidnaping a few kids. Plus, as I said, THAT was the bad part, his choice of test subjects not what he was doing to them.
He's described as a sadist, he believes pain is an effective form of communication, and his job title literally involves "Torture".
Putting your own genin on the firing range, in a test which has a pretty high death rate, for no purpose other than showing off, is pretty bad. It's easy to overlook that because in our chuunin exams no body we cared bout died, but imagine if Hinata ran into Gaara in the Forest of Death? She'd be turned into a bloody lump of meat in the, and just be left there, to decompose. She'd have died just so Konoha can show off the survivors to investors.
Compared to such a meaningless death on such a regular basis, potentially of very important people, people dying in the pursuit of science seems a lot better. There your death served a very concrete purpose besides "To look good".
Luckily, with the AI in our soul, we are actually very well positioned to fix it. Like, intentionally, rather than all these accidental improvements we've been making. Mr AI should have the schematics to a lot of technology that would utterly revolutionize the world, and even if it doesn't we can fairly certainly invent shit to do it.
But none of these civilians agreed to such a thing while the vein did, they knew the risks and died because of them.
Enslaving isn't exactly what they do, if they go out of the line then the seal is used to punish them, like how laws are "enslaving" us, and I am pretty sure human experimentation is a bad thing too maybe even more so than child killing depending on your view. Plus, Orochimaru didn't experimented on a few he experimented on over 60 kids.
Which he never done on civilains or "kids", remember genins are considered adults unless I'm confusing with fanon, and he only uses it on war criminals, stpys, and other such stuff. Plus the stuff on Yota is anime and game only and Ibiki himself never appeared as Yota was interrogatted by Anbu and even then I don't think they tortured Yota, which may be wrong as I never watched fillers involving Yota and only know of her from the fandom wiki.
Simply because Root didn't go through the bother of indoctrinating them first. Consent means little when you indoctrinate the people into giving it.
Plus... how do you know they DIDN'T consent, in some measure? Find some family with too many kids and too little money, say "Hey, we can take one of these off your hands, and maybe turn him into a super ninja!", a good number would probably say yes. Or, heck, tell the orphan kids 'Hey, do you want to become a super ninja?', a lot will probably say yes. And yet, this consent wouldn't make things better, now would it?
It's also to punish them if they do other things the main family doesn't like, like when Hizashi was just a little too aggressive in front of Hinata.
Yeah, 60, compared to the few thousand hyuuga over the years, all of whom get enslaved as children.
He absolutely has. Anytime a civilian knew something they wanted to know, he is the man for the job. Konoha's Torture and Interrogation Force. It's literally in the groups name, it's their primary means of extracting information. And while Ibiki might not have been there with Yota, it WAS his group that Yota was being interrogated by. And Yota was both a civilian and a kid. POSSIBLY a Enemy Spy, hence the interrogation, but a civillian and kid all the same.
One name: Yamato. I'm pretty sure he and every other kid didn't. Plus, what kinda logic is your second paragraph? Orochimaru should've known the process would kill the kids or at least find out after the first few. So if he did that, which he didn't, isn't much better than no consent.
First off, not all were children when enslaved as it is stated that a branch member would be sealed on the heiress third birthday regardless of age, including those who are teenage and above. I admit I was wrong about the caged Bird usage, but I still believe that choosing between over which is worse is a whole another topic.
I was correcting you for saying that Orochimaru experimented on a few when he didn't and not saying he experimented on more people than branch members were sealed.
Yota wasn't really a civilain by the time Yota was interrogated, Yota was a reincarnation of a dead child who was revived by Orochimaru. And again this is filler and is most likely not canon to neither quest nor Naruto.
They got no memory, so how could you say they didn't? It'd be very easy to find a bunch of orphans willing to volunteer for teh chance to be superhuman.
So you are saying that subjecting people to an experience that will more than likely result in their death invalidates whether or not they gave their consent? Because that makes it sound like the Chuunin Exams would invalidate consent.
60 is a few compared to how many hyuuga there are.
They didn't know that. He was just a weird kid that naruto was with that caused the weather to change. There was a stranger in the village so the Anbu moved to find out who he is.
As for whether or not it's canon, given it's generally unobtrusive nature most fanfiction/quests I know of treat it as canon. There's a pretty easy way to check. @Magoose Is Yota canon?
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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No.
There are other elements from canon that are canon, but many of the filler stuff is either not, or will not be interacted by us.
Yota is filler, and I just figured fell under the "will not be interacted with" category. But he flat out doesn't exist, alright.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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Will not interact with.
Ah, so he DOES exist, and is canon. Meaning we can judge T&I on their actions. Good to know. 👍
Not that this will ever come up in this story, but it's nice to know more about the world we're operating in all the same. Out there somewhere is a nomadic clan that can manipulate the weather, and T&I is willing to interrogate a child if they feel the need.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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The world doesn't revolve around you... not unless you make it.
It revolves around Naruto
We're probably going to fix the world, potentially before canon even really kicks off. Not sure how fast we can do stuff but we can do a lot.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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I can think of five ways you can make things somewhat better.
And that's without killing people.
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Note -- wrote most of this in several separate sittings over a several hours so I have no idea if it's totally coherent.
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Was Orochimaru actually taking people from the village to experiment on, or was he given them by Danzo and chose to not connect the dots on where they came from? It seems more likely that he did the latter to me.
So are you saying a (retired?) genin worked on a sensitive matter for Orochimaru and/or the hyuga clan knows every dirty secret in the village?
I'm fine with whatever you do as long as you're consistent with it even if it greatly deviates from canon. I'm just a huge stickler for things being consistent.
Honestly, being deeply tapped into the village rumor mill could explain a lot of attitudes about characters.
Honestly, my personal opinion is that Orochimaru knows that he is abnormal and has learned to create a "moral compass" based off how he thinks those he is close to would act.
The two primary issues for his method: one, that that he can only model his "moral compass" on Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Hiruzen Sarutobi, and two, that it is a flawed construct based off his warped perceptions.
So when he does experiments that would normally be considered unethical if he ran it by his moral compass, he gets two "check with sensei" responses and one "trust Danzo". So he trusts Danzo.
It might just be my personal bias showing since I've known people that could probably be classified as well socialized sociopaths*.
*In addition to some other disorders to be fair,
... The way you handle change sometimes seems like it does. Granted, it's hard to show how everything can change in a reasonable manner without a lot of fudging things.
I'm a stickler for being able to see the direct line of changes the initial difference caused thought, so take everything I say in this regard with a grain of salt.
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Was Orochimaru actually taking people from the village to experiment on, or was he given them by Danzo and chose to not connect the dots on where they came from? It seems more likely that he did the latter to me.
So are you saying a (retired?) genin worked on a sensitive matter for Orochimaru and/or the hyuga clan knows every dirty secret in the village?
I'm fine with whatever you do as long as you're consistent with it even if it greatly deviates from canon. I'm just a huge stickler for things being consistent.
Honestly, being deeply tapped into the village rumor mill could explain a lot of attitudes about characters.
Honestly, my personal opinion is that Orochimaru knows that he is abnormal and has learned to create a "moral compass" based off how he thinks those he is close to would act.
The two primary issues for his method: one, that that he can only model his "moral compass" on Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Hiruzen Sarutobi, and two, that it is a flawed construct based off his warped perceptions.
So when he does experiments that would normally be considered unethical if he ran it by his moral compass, he gets two "check with sensei" responses and one "trust Danzo". So he trusts Danzo.
It might just be my personal bias showing since I've known people that could probably be classified as well socialized sociopaths*.
*In addition to some other disorders to be fair,
... The way you handle change sometimes seems like it does. Granted, it's hard to show how everything can change in a reasonable manner without a lot of fudging things.
I'm a stickler for being able to see the direct line of changes the initial difference caused thought, so take everything I say in this regard with a grain of salt.
- Location
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About Ibiki, I'm fairly certain that he is actualy an expert on psychological torture more then physical. He's portrayed to not really believe in actual torture due to how unreliable information gained through it is. It's why he works so much with Anko, a mix of his expertise with her actual physical torture and borderline sadism. But I may be going with abbit of headcanon here so don't quote me on it.
One way or another T&I no matter how distasteful you might find it is quite important and a integral part of a Village, not to mention Konoha has the Yamanaka so it's not like they lack methods.
Orochimaru had the potential to be one of the best and most interesting 'Villains' in Naruto..sadly he's portrayed as this two bit shounen Villain because..well...Naruto is a shounen. Which is sad really, a deeper dive into his psyche and reasons for why he does what he does or thinks the way he thinks would be very interesting imo.
One way or another T&I no matter how distasteful you might find it is quite important and a integral part of a Village, not to mention Konoha has the Yamanaka so it's not like they lack methods.
Orochimaru had the potential to be one of the best and most interesting 'Villains' in Naruto..sadly he's portrayed as this two bit shounen Villain because..well...Naruto is a shounen. Which is sad really, a deeper dive into his psyche and reasons for why he does what he does or thinks the way he thinks would be very interesting imo.
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just going to point out that Minato was older than Hiruzen when he got the Hat.
Magoose
SV's Questing Fanatic
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I meant that he was the youngest among the group of candidates he had for the hokage hat.
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The only other candidates around Minatos age were Orochimaru and Fugaku I think.