- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's not what McCarthy did at all. Like. in no way was McCarthy "using intolerance against intolerance", he was just... intolerant of ideas that questioned his own.
Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline
- Thread starter Aelita
- Start date
- Timeline Post-1900 Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
That's not what McCarthy did at all. Like. in no way was McCarthy "using intolerance against intolerance", he was just... intolerant of ideas that questioned his own.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Actually he was trying to boost his failing career with a bunch of wild accusations, because prior to this he was most known as a particularly corrupt and bought politician, a complete incompetent nonentity.
And then suddenly he became hot shit with a fake list that didn't exist of Communists.
And then suddenly he became hot shit with a fake list that didn't exist of Communists.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Like, the man was the "Pepsi-Cola Kid", the man who recieved a direct 20k "loan" from a Pepsi executive, in what was very clearly a quid-pro-quo for supporting the end of wartime price controls over sugar. His colleagues hated the shit out of him because they had to interact with him on a daily basis.
A fallen hero he wasn't.
A fallen hero he wasn't.
- Location
- USA
So Ted Cruz, but in a political environment where being a shambling, corrupt ghoul that literally everyone hates is fine so long as you let everyone know how much you hate those dirty Reds?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Kinda? The weird thing is, he was a Moderate Republican. He was entirely a mainstream empty suit of the sort that should be popular, and it's not even as if corruption was verboten back then. But he was notably corrupt, unlikeable, and unpleasant, to the point where everyone from every party disliked him universally.
And then suddenly he came up with the (fictive) list, and then he was the Cool Kid.
So less Ted Cruz, and more the kid whose Uncle *totally* works at Nintendo.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
Okay, I'm going to be frank here and just confront you on my suspicions directly.
Do you think McCarthy was justified? Who do you think is the villain of this particular timeline?
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Lost City of Z
Miss Teri
The Queen
- Location
- West
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Lost City of Z (1966)
Directed by David Lean
Based on the novel "Expedition Fawcett" by Brian Fawcett
Part I
In 1942, near the Bolivian-Brazilian border at Mato Grosso, a group of PanAmerican soldiers are patrolling the jungle. Two of the soldiers, Javier (Jose Hernandez*) and Maria (Janine Worthington*) wander out of the formation, and hear something rumbling in the bushes. After shooting at the trees, an Englishman (Max von Syndow) emerges from the bushes, and collapses from a gunshot wound.
At the PanAmerican camp, Chilean Sub-Lieutenant Augusto Pinochet (Omar Shaif) learns of the Englishman's capture, and sends the English speaking Maria to record his story. The man dies of his injuries, but he is identified as Jack Fawcett, and he carries several artifacts, including an Integralist flag, a book about mysterious South American cultures, several pieces of ancient pottery and a journal belonging to "Col. Percy Fawcett", describing their journey through the jungle.
Thirty-six years earlier, Major Percy Fawcett (Alec Guinness) serves at the War Office in Cork County, Ireland, as a surveyor and mapmaker. He is called by the Royal Geographic Society for his skills to help map out the new border between Brazil and Bolivia, since the two are nearly at war. The RGS is to serve as a neutral party to establish a firm border.
In Brazil, Fawcett and his assistant Corporal Henry Costin (Tom Courtenay) soon come across the perils of the jungle, including large snakes, large spiders and hostile natives. However, Fawcett manages to gain the trust of some tribes thanks to his gifts and comes to study and understand their ways.
After his survey is complete, Fawcett comes across several documents in the Brazilian National Library from the Portuguese bandeirante João da Silva Guimarães, revealing a mysterious city in the modern region of Mato Grasso. While receiving a cool reception when proposing this to the RGS, he receives funding to continue studying the Amazon. He traces the source of the Rio Verde and the Heath River.
In 1911, he manages to convince Colonel Henry Manley (Bernard Kay) and biologist James Murray (Ralph Richardson) to accompany him to the Peru-Brazilian border. The expedition is a disaster, with Murray completely unprepared for the perils of the jungles. Eventually, Fawcett is forced to send a sick Murray back to civilization. Murray lambasts Fawcett for abandoning him in the jungle.
He puts his expeditions on hold to serve as an artillery officer in Flanders during World War I. After the war, he spends time with his family, including wife Nina (Julie Christie) and children Jack (Al Morrison*), Brian (Joey Sun*), and Joan (Autumn Weathers*).
He tries to restart his expeditions to explore the basin, but despite support from his friend Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Claude Rains), who bases the character of George Challenger in his book The Lost World off of him, he fails to get much support from the RGS. However, he does get the support of several London based financiers to help support his mission. He attempts two more expeditions in the 1920's, the first solo, and the second with Jack and his friend Ralph Ringam (Harry Anderson*), where he makes continued observations of the native tribes (despite numerous conflicts). Ultimately, despite the discovery of small pottery in some regions, Fawcett fails to find the city and can't justify any more expeditions.
Part II
In 1938, Fawcett lives in relative obscurity, working with his son Brian on a series of memoirs about his explorations, when he is approached by a member of the Brazilian embassy in London, inviting him to an audience with key members of the Integralist government to restart his search for Z. The embassy member explains that the Integralists had read about his expeditions and his lost city, and want his help in finding this city for their cause
In front of Christiano (IS Johar) and Gustavo Barroso (Roy Bakker*), Fawcett manages to convince them that there is merit to the idea, though Christiano makes it clear that it is to justify their ideology and national mythology. Fawcett, though reaching 70, decides to take the help to find his city and restore his reputation.
Fawcett decides to take just Jack (Costin and Brian decline), declining an entire regiment of Green Guards offered by the Integralists, and in 1940, the two head into the jungle.
Fawcett immediately experiences trouble with low supplies, especially after they lose most of it in river flooding. Fawcett pens one final letter to his wife and Brian while at a camp, before heading into the jungle with Jack. They reach the Kalapalo, who note that Percy, in his advanced age, appears ill.
They get lost in the jungle, and slowly grow erratic at the loss of civilization. The two narrowly survive a Comintern-PanAmerican bombing raid.
Percy finally succumbs to malaria, telling Jack to complete his mission in finding the lost city.
Jack wanders the jungle for days after his death, finally reaching the Bolivia-Brazil border marked by his father 30 years earlier and following it. Eventually, he is shot by Jose and Maria.
Jack's body is exported back to Britain, where he is given a proper burial with Nina, Brian, Joan, and Costin in attendance. Nina is informed by Costin that until the war is over, they will be unable to mount a search for Percy's body. She is last seen heading into a greenhouse in their home.
Notes:
Directed by David Lean
Based on the novel "Expedition Fawcett" by Brian Fawcett
Part I
In 1942, near the Bolivian-Brazilian border at Mato Grosso, a group of PanAmerican soldiers are patrolling the jungle. Two of the soldiers, Javier (Jose Hernandez*) and Maria (Janine Worthington*) wander out of the formation, and hear something rumbling in the bushes. After shooting at the trees, an Englishman (Max von Syndow) emerges from the bushes, and collapses from a gunshot wound.
At the PanAmerican camp, Chilean Sub-Lieutenant Augusto Pinochet (Omar Shaif) learns of the Englishman's capture, and sends the English speaking Maria to record his story. The man dies of his injuries, but he is identified as Jack Fawcett, and he carries several artifacts, including an Integralist flag, a book about mysterious South American cultures, several pieces of ancient pottery and a journal belonging to "Col. Percy Fawcett", describing their journey through the jungle.
Thirty-six years earlier, Major Percy Fawcett (Alec Guinness) serves at the War Office in Cork County, Ireland, as a surveyor and mapmaker. He is called by the Royal Geographic Society for his skills to help map out the new border between Brazil and Bolivia, since the two are nearly at war. The RGS is to serve as a neutral party to establish a firm border.
In Brazil, Fawcett and his assistant Corporal Henry Costin (Tom Courtenay) soon come across the perils of the jungle, including large snakes, large spiders and hostile natives. However, Fawcett manages to gain the trust of some tribes thanks to his gifts and comes to study and understand their ways.
After his survey is complete, Fawcett comes across several documents in the Brazilian National Library from the Portuguese bandeirante João da Silva Guimarães, revealing a mysterious city in the modern region of Mato Grasso. While receiving a cool reception when proposing this to the RGS, he receives funding to continue studying the Amazon. He traces the source of the Rio Verde and the Heath River.
In 1911, he manages to convince Colonel Henry Manley (Bernard Kay) and biologist James Murray (Ralph Richardson) to accompany him to the Peru-Brazilian border. The expedition is a disaster, with Murray completely unprepared for the perils of the jungles. Eventually, Fawcett is forced to send a sick Murray back to civilization. Murray lambasts Fawcett for abandoning him in the jungle.
He puts his expeditions on hold to serve as an artillery officer in Flanders during World War I. After the war, he spends time with his family, including wife Nina (Julie Christie) and children Jack (Al Morrison*), Brian (Joey Sun*), and Joan (Autumn Weathers*).
He tries to restart his expeditions to explore the basin, but despite support from his friend Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (Claude Rains), who bases the character of George Challenger in his book The Lost World off of him, he fails to get much support from the RGS. However, he does get the support of several London based financiers to help support his mission. He attempts two more expeditions in the 1920's, the first solo, and the second with Jack and his friend Ralph Ringam (Harry Anderson*), where he makes continued observations of the native tribes (despite numerous conflicts). Ultimately, despite the discovery of small pottery in some regions, Fawcett fails to find the city and can't justify any more expeditions.
Part II
In 1938, Fawcett lives in relative obscurity, working with his son Brian on a series of memoirs about his explorations, when he is approached by a member of the Brazilian embassy in London, inviting him to an audience with key members of the Integralist government to restart his search for Z. The embassy member explains that the Integralists had read about his expeditions and his lost city, and want his help in finding this city for their cause
In front of Christiano (IS Johar) and Gustavo Barroso (Roy Bakker*), Fawcett manages to convince them that there is merit to the idea, though Christiano makes it clear that it is to justify their ideology and national mythology. Fawcett, though reaching 70, decides to take the help to find his city and restore his reputation.
Fawcett decides to take just Jack (Costin and Brian decline), declining an entire regiment of Green Guards offered by the Integralists, and in 1940, the two head into the jungle.
Fawcett immediately experiences trouble with low supplies, especially after they lose most of it in river flooding. Fawcett pens one final letter to his wife and Brian while at a camp, before heading into the jungle with Jack. They reach the Kalapalo, who note that Percy, in his advanced age, appears ill.
They get lost in the jungle, and slowly grow erratic at the loss of civilization. The two narrowly survive a Comintern-PanAmerican bombing raid.
Percy finally succumbs to malaria, telling Jack to complete his mission in finding the lost city.
Jack wanders the jungle for days after his death, finally reaching the Bolivia-Brazil border marked by his father 30 years earlier and following it. Eventually, he is shot by Jose and Maria.
Jack's body is exported back to Britain, where he is given a proper burial with Nina, Brian, Joan, and Costin in attendance. Nina is informed by Costin that until the war is over, they will be unable to mount a search for Percy's body. She is last seen heading into a greenhouse in their home.
Notes:
- Noted as the "anti-Lawrence" (in reference to Lean's previous film, Lawrence of Arabia), because of the character's ultimate failure
- Conflates many incidents in Fawcett's life (including his early expeditions), and downplays his racism, his alleged sympathy for the Integralist cause (and close affiliation with such in his final years) and his ill-equipped final journey.
Sulemain
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The ultimate irony, of course, is that there were Soviet spies in the American Government, but that does not justify even half of McCarthy's methods or actions. The correct way of dealing with Stalinism isn't Republican Stalinism. The man was a lying idiot and a demagogue opponent of freedom.
Sulemain
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Seems like an interesting movie @Miss Teri-perhaps a metaphor for pre-war British support for the Brazilian dictatorship?
- Location
- The Midlands.
Hmmm. So Fawcett wasn't quite as unlucky in ITTL, then? In IOTL his second expedition ended with himself, Jack and Ringham disappearing into the jungle never to be seen or heard from again.
On the other hand, it seems to have taken a lot longer for it to come to light that Fawcett was a lot closer to being right than he gets credit for: There really were some pretty big towns in that general area, the largest being a place called Kuhikugu. Nothing resembling what's depicyed in the manuscript Fawcett read has turned up yet, however.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
Particularly since all the Soviet spies had been cleaned out for years by the time he did his 'list of names' speech.
Sulemain
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- United Kingdom
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, I was unaware of the timing.
That makes him more of an idiot bastard then.
Miss Teri
The Queen
- Location
- West
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, he's unlucky, it's just much later. He basically exhausts all his goodwill, and the only people still willing to give him a chance are the Integralists.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Apparently he was very much a real person:
Percy Fawcett - Wikipedia
Miss Teri
The Queen
- Location
- West
- Pronouns
- She/Her
As noted in the notes, this film (and the OTL film of the same name starring Charlie Hunnam) downplayed Fawcett's real racism and his condescension of natives.Apparently he was very much a real person:
Just... well, with the events going on in South America ITTL, he's had a rougher time of it. I'd say the association with Integralists was unfortunate but necessary; they're the ones ruling Brazil, and you'd need their approval to do anything, really, plus a group (partially?) inspired by the Nazis would be similarly eager to prove their legacy (SS Ahnenerbe anyone?) and would be easy to convince to fund an expedition to find some lost mystic El Dorado.Percy Fawcett - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The TTL also downplays that he became partial to the Integralists and their ideology and the Integralists liked him as well.
the atom
Anarcho-Kemalist Thought Leader
- Location
- Comfortably numb
There were a couple here and there but it was much, much smaller in scale than it was before Venona and they relied less on communists and more on criminals who could be bought.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Also, even the spies that still existed--while rooting them out was, y'know, a thing a government should do--weren't exactly as big of a threat as portrayed, which is that if there's a spy anywhere in the government, it just collapses like a house of cards because communism.
Besides, they already knew who the most successful soviet spy was.
He was called the Ambassador.
(The Soviets knew who the most successful American spy was too, of course.)
Besides, they already knew who the most successful soviet spy was.
He was called the Ambassador.
(The Soviets knew who the most successful American spy was too, of course.)
- Location
- Singapore
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I've read about the Fawcetts. Didn't know they made a movie out of them. Unfortunate that he's a fascist sympathizer ITTL.
Artigas
Protector de los Pueblos Libres
- Location
- Liga Federal
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Ele/Dele
Since the strasserist become a thing latter on what is their social base since there is no frustrated petite bourgeoise to recrute from and the capitalists in Havana/Paris are not sending money to then (or at least not as much they gave the True Democrats)?
Also what happened to Strasser ITTL?
Mal-3
Fun Tyrant
Teenaged edgelords. Doing stupid shit in the name of looking cool and antiestablishment is a proud tradition and it doesn't come much stupider than Strasserism.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
And communism is successful enough intellectually in America ITTL that even the Nazism desperately tries to drape itself in communist language and symbology in the same way that other dominant paradigms basically defined the language that they were challenged in (including religious paradigms, and in fact capitalism), successfully or otherwise (and in the case of TTL Strasserism, definitely unsuccessfully.)
- Location
- The left-wing of the impossible
The number of splinters the Socialist Action Front has over these sorts of things will be legendary. How racist they are, who they're racist against, whether they're phoning in the socialism or are actually genuine, etc.
- Location
- Amman, Jordan
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
never thought I'd be glad we have the straightforwards racists IOTL. At least you know why they're jerks and don't have to follow convoluted reasoning.
Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm honestly morbidly curious if there's any Americubans who wonder if they could've gotten along with the Reds, had some of their more senior statesmen not launched a surprise coup, thus validating every fear they had?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Which senior statesmen are you talking about? Is MacArthur a statesman? He's more of a general.