Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
To be fair, I could totally see a Chaos spirit giving up the easy win in order to have someone fuck themselves over.
Funnier that way.
Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy
- Thread starter Blackout
- Start date
- Fantasy
Funnier that way.
This is Chaos; this whole event was triggered by Dark Curiosity, it's almost a direct parallel to what got Fanriel exiled in the first place (acting irresponsibly with the idea of somehow helping 'the Greater Good'), and the spirit is at best tainted by Chaos (which in lore is unrecoverable)- Mutations on people are permanent sources of Corruption that can never be removed, any version of such a thing on a spiritual entity that has been directly cultivated by the Dark Powers for centuries or millennia would be much, much worse.
I think this shouldn't even be a vote- a princess specialized in fighting the Four should be able evaluate via Windsight whether the entity talking to her is corrupted by the Four (which it undoubtably is), know that the best (and only) fate for such a thing is euthanasia, and act accordingly. Warhammer Fantasy isn't 40k with its memetic corruption, but Chaotic corruption in Fantasy is incurable in the setting by any and every character save the Everqueen, and we'll never be in a position to meet her unless and until the End Times happens.
This is a no-win situation prompted by a character-defining negative trait that we can't get rid of or ameliorate, other than to ignore. Which is why we should ignore the call to do something incredibly irresponsible, and move on before the tragedy of this situation spirals into the tragedy of Fanriel losing her life and all the men of the Elector Count losing theirs because they were ambushed by a Beastmen army we didn't report because we died trying to 'save' a tainted entity whose best hope is euthanasia.
Last edited:
[] Cut the spirit free.
Fuck Chaos.
Also, while the logging operation is important, fucking whatever they're doing here before they're ready to unleash it is arguably of greater tactical and strategic benefit.
Fighting and killing this mess even if we go back and the Elector drops everything to immediately come after them is going to be hellishly difficult as is, giving a newborn Daemon Realm time to further solidify its hold is the kind of country-ending threat that world-wide horror stories are made of.
The people we left in command are not stupid, and if we die here then word of something that can kill an Elf Loremaster is going to get back to the Elector even if they don't know what exactly it is.
Fuck Chaos.
Also, while the logging operation is important, fucking whatever they're doing here before they're ready to unleash it is arguably of greater tactical and strategic benefit.
The problem with this argument is that this section of forest is already a Daemon Realm, as described by the whole recursive-looping and perspective-based fast travel.
Fighting and killing this mess even if we go back and the Elector drops everything to immediately come after them is going to be hellishly difficult as is, giving a newborn Daemon Realm time to further solidify its hold is the kind of country-ending threat that world-wide horror stories are made of.
The people we left in command are not stupid, and if we die here then word of something that can kill an Elf Loremaster is going to get back to the Elector even if they don't know what exactly it is.
Last edited:
.... Why does the spirit get corrupted if we leave?
How long has it been sitting there?
And why can't it hold out for about 10-20 hours more while we gather a strike force?
How long has it been sitting there?
And why can't it hold out for about 10-20 hours more while we gather a strike force?
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
We'd be better at fucking it up if we don't reveal that we know they're here, though.
Revealing that we're here means that they're on the defense. If your goal is to disrupt what they're doing, you want to leave quietly so we can come back with an army.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Beyond what Mopman said:
Chaos regularly fights itself, that's why it's Chaos. As shown by the Spawn eating the Gors. Daemons will fuck over the mortals who swear to Chaos, and the entire end state of Chaos is the Dark Gods devouring everyone's souls, including their servants.
There's false perception of unity in Warhammer spread by the fan community, and kinda GW, that factions have no civil wars.
Except... you're wrong. That's projecting what you want onto the text that clearly says we don't know, and are having to make a decision on just their word:
We have no proof it's telling the truth or lying. We're making a snap judgement call.
- Location
- California
They don't seem to be 'unleashing' anything. They seem to be continuing their long term corrupt the forest plans, sitting around and waiting to attack at some point in the future. It's not just about if they'd stop the logging operation; it's if they'd be put on alert to block a dedicated operation to attack this beast path. They currently think this is a safe base they can plot at, not an area which is about to be attacked. Us showing up will end their complacence.
Personally, one fate worse than death can only outweigh so many other straight up deaths. Given that putting the beastmen on alert here will probably lead to them surging in reinforcements, and switching from long term corruption to hasty rituals, I think the many deaths outweigh the one bad fate.
I did an edited insert explaining why that doesn't really work, but short recap;
The forest is already a nascent Daemon Realm, as explained by the looping and thought-based fast travel mechanics. It is right now a dire threat that instant response by the Elector and all his troops may or may not be able to handle. And giving them more time to boost is only going to make it worse.
So sabotage it so they can better handle it even if Fanriel doesn't make it out, which is by no means guaranteed.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It's a Beastpath. There's loads of them.
It's a threat on a strategic movement level, it isn't going to corrupt all of Ostland or something.
Fanriel seems to think that disrupting it would require an army. Freeing the spirit is only stated to help the spirit.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Cool update. Wow, it's Decisions, decisions once again...
On one hand, I am tempted to free the spirit. Reasons:
- If it's not a trick from the start (but in that case, why not just blowing our cover immediately? And why risk getting hit by a Chaos-removing rune sword?), I would bet that if we say "no, sorry" or even "I will return with an army, hold on", the Forest Spirit will despair, and thus immediately fall to Chaos, screaming at us with all of its power and breaking our hiding illusion.
- If we can quickly cloak back and escape the scene, and the only problem is with the expedition... it is fine, because nobody needs to know exactly why we are running with a herd of Beastmen on our heels: "I found a herd of Beastmen preparing to attack, I spotted them before they could" is absolutely true, and also covers our PR.
- it's the right thing to do. Kurnous and/or Isha may bless us for this action taken in good faith... right?
On the other hand, I am reminded of a scene in the first Mass Effect game: when you enter Saren and Sovereign's base, and you meet an imprisoned Salarian. He says "These songs of oily shadows have been whispering to me so much, probably to make me mad. Please, free me!" and if you free him... you find he's already indoctrinated, and tries to kill you.
So the Big Question for me is: how long has this been going on?
If it is old, there is no way out: run the f**** away, fast.
If it is new... the spirit might very well be telling the truth. And as I mentioned above, running away may lead it to bitterly despair and break our hiding, throwing everyone at us. We would have to call upon Da Khaela Mensha (Khaine) to get out in one piece instead of dying or worse.
I may re-read everything when I have more time. Maybe more analytical souls can examine the forest's state and the spirit. Meanwhile, a couple of observations from quotes:
The second question should be part of a write-in IMO
P.s. Wait just a minute, use lateral thinking out of the box: why only this spirit can see us?
On one hand, I am tempted to free the spirit. Reasons:
- If it's not a trick from the start (but in that case, why not just blowing our cover immediately? And why risk getting hit by a Chaos-removing rune sword?), I would bet that if we say "no, sorry" or even "I will return with an army, hold on", the Forest Spirit will despair, and thus immediately fall to Chaos, screaming at us with all of its power and breaking our hiding illusion.
- If we can quickly cloak back and escape the scene, and the only problem is with the expedition... it is fine, because nobody needs to know exactly why we are running with a herd of Beastmen on our heels: "I found a herd of Beastmen preparing to attack, I spotted them before they could" is absolutely true, and also covers our PR.
- it's the right thing to do. Kurnous and/or Isha may bless us for this action taken in good faith... right?
On the other hand, I am reminded of a scene in the first Mass Effect game: when you enter Saren and Sovereign's base, and you meet an imprisoned Salarian. He says "These songs of oily shadows have been whispering to me so much, probably to make me mad. Please, free me!" and if you free him... you find he's already indoctrinated, and tries to kill you.
So the Big Question for me is: how long has this been going on?
If it is old, there is no way out: run the f**** away, fast.
If it is new... the spirit might very well be telling the truth. And as I mentioned above, running away may lead it to bitterly despair and break our hiding, throwing everyone at us. We would have to call upon Da Khaela Mensha (Khaine) to get out in one piece instead of dying or worse.
I may re-read everything when I have more time. Maybe more analytical souls can examine the forest's state and the spirit. Meanwhile, a couple of observations from quotes:
What do you mean with "the corruption is incomplete"? Is it because the gnarly roots were there but not actively tripping us up? A corrupted forest is different from this?
Yes, the two unspoken questions are "How long have you been here?" and "If revealed, I cannot defeat a Beastmen horde alone. If freed, can you help me escape? Failing that, can you resist until I come back here with an army?"
The second question should be part of a write-in IMO
P.s. Wait just a minute, use lateral thinking out of the box: why only this spirit can see us?
Last edited:
- Location
- California
It's not a daemon realm; it's a beast path. They aren't the type of things which are newly establish and get boosted. They're the closest thing the beastmen have to long term infrastructure. Think of it as a spooky dark magic train station, not a superweapon.
If it were the kind of thing that all the Elector-Counts forces wouldn't be able to handle, I'd have expected Fanriel to bring it up in her internal narration, but she didn't. She saw it as a vulnerable area the Elector-Count could hit with the element of surprise.
A Beast Path and a Daemon Realm aren't mutually exclusive, especially when enhanced by a corrupted Spirit Court.
Because that's what Chaos does. That's literally why Chaos is a world-ending problem that everybody not Chaos opposes in one fashion or another. There are loads of them, and they are destroyed at every opportunity because to do less is near suicidal. Because to let them get a foothold and leave it unchecked is to have reality increasingly unravel at the seems via successive stages of corruption and dissolution.
Chaos control of an area only ever ends one way. "Beast Path" and "Daemon Realm" are at best differences in degree, not in kind.
I didn't say all their forces. I said all the forces he has on hand here for this operation. And if you're going to say get more forces, well, so will the Beastmen.
And she did bring that up. That's what all that agonizing about the horror of the space twisting and corruption and vile desecration against the Gods was about.
Last edited:
- Location
- California
That right there is exactly my reasoning; the beastmen don't think they need to get more forces right now. They think the humans have no idea about this place, so they can wait a few weeks to call reinforcements when those reinforcements can strike the army in the rear, once it has moved on.
If an elf hero shows up and fights their way out of here, then the beastmen know the humans know about this place. They'll panic and immediately call for backup.
Ah. So poison corrupting the spirits.
And if we leave, it gets poisoned and turned and the place is irrevocably lost.
If it's telling the truth then freeing it would allow us to save the area from total corruption.
Possibly destroying the beast path?
Sounds farfetched.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Fanriel seemed to believed the tactical choice is to leave quietly and come back with an army.
There wasn't any suggestion that cutting the spirit free does anything to disrupt their operations, it just frees the spirit (and reveals Fanriel).
It's a question of what's worth more, the life of the spirit or the tactical advantage of surprise?
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
See, I disagree with that.
Yes, it was brought about by a 'negative' trait over which we lost control of due to the luck of the dice. But that doesn't mean the consequences need to be negative. Freeing the spirit successfully might prove to have hidden benefits down the line, and while it'd make the mission overall more difficult, Fanriel doesn't believe it's an autofail either. And while I'm against it, withdrawing also allows for a potential surprise attack on a strategic location we weren't aware of before failing our dark curiosity roll.
All in all, that handicap does make Fanriel's life more risky (for instance, failing the rolls we had to make to get there might have put us in a dangerous situation), but that doesn't mean nothing good can come out of it. And to tell the truth, sometimes I do think taking extra risks make for a more interesting adventure, while the overly cautious approach can get a tad boring.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
If Fanriel didn't have Dark Curiosity, than I expect there would have been a vote of 'Fanriel thinks there's something magical and Chaos deeper in the forest. Does she go take a look?'
Dark Curiosity removed the vote to decide whether or not to go. And probably lead to some other things, like the fact that Fanriel decided to approach the Beastpath entrance.
Ah, Hoeth...
My question: how soon is 'soon'? The spirit may have a different perception of time to Fanriel - 'soon' could mean what we would consider 'soon' to be but it could also mean 'some time before Winter'. To it, we could be there and back with an army in the blink of an eye, long before what it worries is its imminent corruption.
That aside... Gah, I hate it, but freeing this one spirit now is going to mean many more lives lost later. The Count will need to assault this place whatever happens and an enemy expecting and prepared for an attack, especially when it comes to the Beastmen, is a far deadlier prospect than an enemy caught by surprise, even ignoring the consequences for the expedition here and now and the fact that the spirit might be corrupted in the first place. The calculus is just too heavily weighted.
My question: how soon is 'soon'? The spirit may have a different perception of time to Fanriel - 'soon' could mean what we would consider 'soon' to be but it could also mean 'some time before Winter'. To it, we could be there and back with an army in the blink of an eye, long before what it worries is its imminent corruption.
That aside... Gah, I hate it, but freeing this one spirit now is going to mean many more lives lost later. The Count will need to assault this place whatever happens and an enemy expecting and prepared for an attack, especially when it comes to the Beastmen, is a far deadlier prospect than an enemy caught by surprise, even ignoring the consequences for the expedition here and now and the fact that the spirit might be corrupted in the first place. The calculus is just too heavily weighted.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I don't think Dark Curiosity made this situation worse. It forced us to investigate a situation we otherwise would have had the option to either investigate or not.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
I mean sure, I don't disagree on that.
My point was that just because Dark Curiosity forces us on one path doesn't mean that this path is automatically bad. It's just likely to be riskier.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
This is definitely going to be a tough fight. Fighting Beastmen on their own territory is never great.
Leave the spirit, sneak away, come back with the army. Letting the beastmen know they've been found isn't just giving away an abstract advantage, it's costing hundreds of lives and increasing the chance that we lose altogether, leaving them in control of the forest and the beast-path.
Mmm - good news in the operational sense, bad in the tactical dangers to come... Let's not make them worse.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
But if the spirit gets corrupted, he can just tell them. Or not? And then bye-bye secret mission.
I think we need to apply logic here (a sort of Mind Palace moment for Fanriel, like Sherlock). There are several things I do not understand:
- why did only this spirit see us? Why don't we have "the others" already touched by Chaos screaming at us to shatter our hiding?
- You can answer "They all saw us, he's trying to trick us". But that alternative has to answer several more questions:
-- Why would he trick us and invite a strike... from a Chaos-removing runed sword? It seems suicidal to me.
-- Are we unable to look at the other cancerous growths and see if the souls inside have Dhar?
- You can answer: "The others are freshly in thrall of Chaos, and cannot perceive other subtle magic as well as I do". But I do not know how plausible this is
Let us think it through:
whether A) we free the spirit, B) the spirit is already corrupted, C) we tell the spirit to hold on while we get an army, and it gets corrupted
--> the Beastmen will know that we were here. They will be ready for us.
Unless: the spirit has no way to communicate with anyone outside of talking with us via magic, which would eliminate options B) and C). But is it realistic?
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'd expect it's that one, yeah.
That or the Chaos corruption leaves the spirits substantially Less than they otherwise are.