La Chanson de la Victoire (The Song of Victory): La Petite Arpenteuse (Non, SV, you are a General of France in the Napoleonic War!)

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To quote an certain character: Everyone thinks they're hero of their own story.

Under other circumstances Robespierre's goals might seem noble, maintaining democracy in the face of a man whose undoubtably plotting to overthrow him (let's not kid ourselves Napoleon has probably looking for ways to remove Max), depoliticising an army that regularly interferes in the governing of the country, ending the cycle of weak and chaotic governments by defanging an opposition that seeks to return the country to the bad old days and preserving the original values of the revolution.

Trouble is Robespierre is paranoid, perhaps rightfully so as he has already been overthrown once, but this paranoia seeps into his actions. It isn't enough to win, there must be no possibility that his victory can be undone. The easiest solution is usually the simplest, so if that means rolling out the guillotine for not only known enemies, but the suspected and the sympathisers, then so be it.

I don't think Max has gone completely delusional (cult of the supreme being! Bathe in the virtue of my glorious republic!), but he represents what unchecked drive and uncompromising belief can create. To him if his ideology isn't working, it isn't the ideology that needs to change, it's France and instead of the means justifying the end, it's the end that justifies the means.
 
....

Discussing Communism...is illogical considering it does not exist as a concept yet.

You do know that Boneparte is the First "Third Way" Style individual that existed in Modern Geopolitics between the Old Regimes and the Growing ideals of Liberal Democracy right?

So really we aren't fighting for any brand of "Communism" as we'd call it, we're fighting for the ever elusive "Third Way" in this time represented by Napoleon Bonaparte.
Not really accurate, IMO. Napoleon wasn't much interested in the social policies of the modern liberal movement, see his willingness to reinstate slavery for political support, and believes quite strongly in mustering the economy of France and the conquered nations of Europe to fund his armies. Classic command economy stuff that's kinda how all kings and emperors ran their lands.

The main distinction for the early manifestations of communism is the old metric of "background". Much like how former nobility and royally-connected officers were forced out of the military or spied on during the Revolution, Napoleon comes from a "backwater" country and minor status. Corsica's been occupied by France as long as he lives, and with many of its old nobility stripped to ensure the nation was kept compliant amidst independence bids, he lived on the "outside" until joining the military. Maximilian, by contrast, was from a long-standing family connected to the justice system, an old favorite of the educated elite among the Third Estate.

Napoleon is the citizen-Soldier that Max once idolized, before realizing that concept poses a threat to his grand ambitions. Ergo, Napoleon is potentially a Proto-Proletariat Vanguard.
 
Napoleon is the citizen-Soldier that Max once idolized, before realizing that concept poses a threat to his grand ambitions. Ergo, Napoleon is potentially a Proto-Proletariat Vanguard.
Ahh I see.

God Marx is gonna have a field day studying the Social and Political Ramifications of the Napoleonic Era and how it both fits and fails to fit his ideas of Revolutions and Communism.
 
Ahh I see.

God Marx is gonna have a field day studying the Social and Political Ramifications of the Napoleonic Era and how it both fits and fails to fit his ideas of Revolutions and Communism.
If the fact that pretty much every nation that ran on Communism had to rely on a hefty dose of nationalism to justify the autocratic control of the Party Elite didn't give it away, the conflict in ideas between letting the masses direct themselves and central control of economics and politics almost always fell in the direction both Maxy and Napoleon IRL ultimately agreed on: The Will of the People is best represented by an all-powerful executive. Otherwise people start doing things you find are against the "revolutionary spirit".

Like Andrew Ryan eventually "tugging" the Great Chain.
 
The dynamic of this second civil war that's somewhat being overlooked is the matter of social class. The same issues that partially drove the American Revolution.
Paris is the heart of the revolution yes, but it is not the only place where the Revolution need to follow. It can and should look to the Frontiers and heartlands that have largely been ignored by

France is not Paris, and Paris is not France, no matter how many men like Robespierre and others may believe. France has millions living in the lower classes
Maximilien Robespierre is not nobility, but a wealthy lawyer, a 1%er. His clique included other wealthy men who were put on the level of peasants and working class by virtue of not possessing titles, something that has been a source of struggle since the High Middle Ages. The Army, by contrast, retains the ancient tradition dating back to the Roman Kingdom of being the place for the common man to advance into the wealthy, non-nobility, elite. They are the proletariat, not Maximillian's government.
I would argue it is also the much greater difference between the soldier, the lower nobles that are in the army and the city elite, more then the peasents and working class and the 1%.

They do not see the high-minded ideals of the revolution preached in the streets of safety and prosperity (for a given word) by Revolutionaries. Where they can be swayed by people who are charismatic, and who's interests are in power and influence over their fellow man.

They see brotherhood in a shared mission, in common goals and common struggles.

Therese for example has been wounded after she puts herself into the fight because she felt like she needed to. Brian, being a staff officer, may not have shared that similar feeling, but no one denies he's the reason everyone is fed and paid.

And Napoleon brings victory wherever he goes, even with minor setbacks, ones that end war.
To quote an certain character: Everyone thinks they're hero of their own story.
Exactly. The thing is, we are the hero of our story, and even a supporting cast member in others.
Under other circumstances Robespierre's goals might seem noble, maintaining democracy in the face of a man whose undoubtably plotting to overthrow him (let's not kid ourselves Napoleon has probably looking for ways to remove Max), depoliticising an army that regularly interferes in the governing of the country, ending the cycle of weak and chaotic governments by defanging an opposition that seeks to return the country to the bad old days and preserving the original values of the revolution.
Some could even argue that they might restore the monarchy. But that is propaganda at the moment.
Trouble is Robespierre is paranoid, perhaps rightfully so as he has already been overthrown once, but this paranoia seeps into his actions. It isn't enough to win, there must be no possibility that his victory can be undone. The easiest solution is usually the simplest, so if that means rolling out the guillotine for not only known enemies, but the suspected and the sympathisers, then so be it.
While the problem with that, even if Robe is right in his thinking, the fact that his methods require that of him, means that they are in the end, wrong.

They say the ends justify the means...

But sometimes the Means are just as important.
I don't think Max has gone completely delusional (cult of the supreme being! Bathe in the virtue of my glorious republic!), but he represents what unchecked drive and uncompromising belief can create. To him if his ideology isn't working, it isn't the ideology that needs to change, it's France and instead of the means justifying the end, it's the end that justifies the means.
And that is the Failure of Maximimliumn Robespierre. He is such a believer in his ideology, he doesn't stop and ask himself "Will France be strong if I do this?"

Napoleon for all his faults and ambitions, has men who can tell him straight to his face, that what he is doing is wrong, and make him reconsider what he is doing.
Not really accurate, IMO. Napoleon wasn't much interested in the social policies of the modern liberal movement, see his willingness to reinstate slavery for political support, and believes quite strongly in mustering the economy of France and the conquered nations of Europe to fund his armies. Classic command economy stuff that's kinda how all kings and emperors ran their lands.
Napoleon is in the end a man after power.

But I belive he may do things differently here with influence from good people. Maybe not brilliant people, but good people.
The main distinction for the early manifestations of communism is the old metric of "background". Much like how former nobility and royally-connected officers were forced out of the military or spied on during the Revolution, Napoleon comes from a "backwater" country and minor status. Corsica's been occupied by France as long as he lives, and with many of its old nobility stripped to ensure the nation was kept compliant amidst independence bids, he lived on the "outside" until joining the military. Maximilian, by contrast, was from a long-standing family connected to the justice system, an old favorite of the educated elite among the Third Estate.
Therese and Brian are more accurate for this, as they were literally freemen thrust into a situation that allowed them to rise to prominence by luck and fate (and the dice)

Napoleon had his family. Robes had his family.

Therese and Brian only had eachother.
Napoleon is the citizen-Soldier that Max once idolized, before realizing that concept poses a threat to his grand ambitions. Ergo, Napoleon is potentially a Proto-Proletariat Vanguard.
I find that innaccurate.

Napoleon is blue blooded and noble.

Brian and Therese are the more ideal citizen soldier. Especially brian, as he gave up power to be with his family.
 
....

Discussing Communism...is illogical considering it does not exist as a concept yet.

You do know that Boneparte is the First "Third Way" Style individual that existed in Modern Geopolitics between the Old Regimes and the Growing ideals of Liberal Democracy right?

So really we aren't fighting for any brand of "Communism" as we'd call it, we're fighting for the ever elusive "Third Way" in this time represented by Napoleon Bonaparte.

rare image of SV dealing with Cyber after this comment



memes aside,is pretty stupid to talk about communism given the technological and social development is pretty much lacking
one must learn to walk before run,there still at least 70 years of work ahead before even talking of communism
 
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rare image of SV dealing with Cyber after this comment
Who am I pissing off by stating what I said?:cry:
memes aside,is pretty stupid to talk about communism given the technological and social development is pretty much lacking
Indeed, I noted that in my Comments, Marx isn't even born yet and won't be born for years to come.
one must learn to walk before run,there still at least 70 years of work ahead before even talking of communism
Exactly The Conflect of the Age of Napoleon is Classical Liberal Republicanism, Monarchism and Napoleon Boneparte's Personal and Public Ideology that is slowly shaping as of late.

Brian kinda dropped the Ball after he failed to reign in Napoleon and Robe, and being the better man and worrying about Family is the absolute last thing he should have done.
 
I find that innaccurate.

Napoleon is blue blooded and noble.
I mean... yes, that's the realist point: leadership in newborn communist nations don't come from peasants and factory line workers. It's the middle class, or the historical/social equivalent. Trotsky and Lenin were from middle-class background, large landowners and intellectuals respectively. Marx and Engels were the children of wealthy industrialists and benefited from the concentration of new liberal educators in higher education. Ho Chi Mihn received both a high-class Confucian and traditional Western education because his father was a magistrate. Napoleon being a son of rebellious Corsican petty nobility who received top notch military education makes him fit right in when you think about it.

When you look at the backgrounds of each charismatic and successful revolutionary leader, you start to see traits that cross the far more permeable ideological barrier. After all, how they describe their big message to prosperity and power is inherently what the speaker wants people to hear.
memes aside,is pretty stupid to talk about communism given the technological and social development is pretty much lacking
one must learn to walk before run,there still at least 70 years of work ahead before even talking of communism
SV had Imperial China invent Jet Engines before 1914 and stuck them on biplanes, we do what we want. :V
 
When you look at the backgrounds of each charismatic and successful revolutionary leader, you start to see traits that cross the far more permeable ideological barrier. After all, how they describe their big message to prosperity and power is inherently what the speaker wants people to hear.
Once again, I;m just saying about the citizen-soldier archetype itself, not the future Communist revolutionary figure that rises to power after the revolution.

SV had Imperial China invent Jet Engines before 1914 and stuck them on biplanes, we do what we want. :V
Now this I want to Read.

Also, Therese helped jump-start French industrialization by just fixing a blueprint for a waterwheel, she may not be a Bourgous capitalist, but make no mistake, she benefits from certain elements of capitalism for the state, and her own benifit.
 
Also, can someone help orginize up all the rolls and people in one post please, I'm in the middle of the clusterfuck that is... French Revolutionary Politics and a coup.

And you thought Modern American Politics were chaotic. :V
 
I wonder if we could invest in agricultural machines or something.

SV had Imperial China invent Jet Engines before 1914 and stuck them on biplanes, we do what we want. :V
Pulsejet engines are technically jet engines. Technically.
And a working model was invented OTL in 1907 which is more than enough time for the technology to travel.
 
Updated allegiance list:

Generals:

Eustache Charles Joseph d'Aoust - Napoleon (43 + 20 = 63)

Alexandre François Marie, Viscount of Beauharnais - Napoleon (77 + 20 = 97)

Jean Baptiste François Carteaux
- Napoleon (87 + 20 = 107)

Jean-Étienne Vachier Championnet
- Napoleon (75 + 20 = 95)

Charles Bertin Gaston Chapuis de Tourvil
- Napoleon (46 + 20 = 66)

Adam Philippe, Comte de Custine
- Robespierre (26 + 20 = 46)

Louis Charles Antoine Desaix
- Robespierre (4 + 20 = 24)

Jacques François Coquille
- Napoleon (75 + 20 = 95)

Louis Lazare Hoche
- Napoleon (63 + 20 = 83)


Civilian Ministers/ Revolutionaries:

Jean Adrien Bigonnet - Robespierre (62 - 20 = 42)

Armand-Gaston Camus - Robespierre (40 - 20 = 20)

Pierre-André Coffinhal-Dubail - Robespierre (24 - 20 = 4)

Antoinette Gabrielle Danton
- Robespierre (33 - 20 = 13)

Pierre-Henri-Hélène-Marie Lebrun-Tondu
- Robespierre (12 - 20 = -8)

Emmanuel Marie Michel Philippe Fréteau de Saint-Just
- Robespierre (4 - 20 = -16)

Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just
- Robespierre (45 - 20 = 25)

Gracchus François Jean-Baptiste Topino-Lebrun
- Napoleon (81 - 20 = 61)

Antoine Louis Albitte
- Napoleon (78 - 20 = 58)

Lucien Bonaparte
- Napoleon (86 - 20 = 66)

Paul François Jean Nicolas Barras
- Napoleon (87 - 20 = 67)

Louis Marie de La Révellière-Lépeaux
- Robespierre (67 - 20 = 47)

Jean-François Reubell
- Robespierre (41 - 20 = 21)

Joseph Fouché
- Robespierre (17 - 20 = -3)
 
Updated allegiance list:

Generals:

Eustache Charles Joseph d'Aoust - Napoleon (43 + 20 = 63)

Alexandre François Marie, Viscount of Beauharnais - Napoleon (77 + 20 = 97)

Jean Baptiste François Carteaux - Napoleon (87 + 20 = 107)

Jean-Étienne Vachier Championnet - Napoleon (75 + 20 = 95)

Charles Bertin Gaston Chapuis de Tourvil - Napoleon (46 + 20 = 66)

Adam Philippe, Comte de Custine - Robespierre (26 + 20 = 46)

Louis Charles Antoine Desaix - Robespierre (4 + 20 = 24)

Jacques François Coquille - Napoleon (75 + 20 = 95)

Louis Lazare Hoche - Napoleon (63 + 20 = 83)


Civilian Ministers/ Revolutionaries:

Jean Adrien Bigonnet - Robespierre (62 - 20 = 42)

Armand-Gaston Camus - Robespierre (40 - 20 = 20)

Pierre-André Coffinhal-Dubail - Robespierre (24 - 20 = 4)

Antoinette Gabrielle Danton - Robespierre (33 - 20 = 13)

Pierre-Henri-Hélène-Marie Lebrun-Tondu - Robespierre (12 - 20 = -8)

Emmanuel Marie Michel Philippe Fréteau de Saint-Just - Robespierre (4 - 20 = -16)

Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just - Robespierre (45 - 20 = 25)

Gracchus François Jean-Baptiste Topino-Lebrun - Napoleon (81 - 20 = 61)

Antoine Louis Albitte - Napoleon (78 - 20 = 58)

Lucien Bonaparte - Napoleon (86 - 20 = 66)

Paul François Jean Nicolas Barras - Napoleon (87 - 20 = 67)

Louis Marie de La Révellière-Lépeaux - Robespierre (67 - 20 = 47)

Jean-François Reubell - Robespierre (41 - 20 = 21)

Joseph Fouché - Robespierre (17 - 20 = -3)
THank you, i think Cyber has a list of the Marshels somewhere.

So enjoy.
 
Pretty decent support from the Citizens/Ministers for Napoleon. The best among them I say is his own brother. He was pretty liked if I remember correctly so maybe he will get Napoleon more citizens support that aren't named yet.
 
Negaverse Updated allegiance list:

Generals:

Eustache Charles Joseph d'Aoust - Napoleon (37 - 20 = 17)

Alexandre François Marie, Viscount of Beauharnais - Napoleon (3 - 20 = -17)

Jean Baptiste François Carteaux - Napoleon (9 - 20 = -11)

Jean-Étienne Vachier Championnet - Napoleon (58 - 20 = 38)

Charles Bertin Gaston Chapuis de Tourvil - Napoleon (8 - 20 = -12)

Adam Philippe, Comte de Custine - Robespierre (79 - 20 = 59)

Louis Charles Antoine Desaix - Robespierre (94 - 20 = 74)

Jacques François Coquille - Napoleon (24 - 20 = 4)

Louis Lazare Hoche - Napoleon (68 - 20 = 48)

Thérèse Auclair - Napoleon (1 - 20 = -19)

Civilian Ministers/ Revolutionaries:

Jean Adrien Bigonnet - Robespierre (60 + 20 = 80)

Armand-Gaston Camus - Robespierre (82 + 20 = 102)

Pierre-André Coffinhal-Dubail - Robespierre (76 + 20 = 96)

Antoinette Gabrielle Danton - Robespierre (80 + 20 = 100)

Pierre-Henri-Hélène-Marie Lebrun-Tondu - Robespierre (66 + 20 = 86)

Emmanuel Marie Michel Philippe Fréteau de Saint-Just - Robespierre (57 + 20 = 77)

Louis Antoine Léon de Saint-Just - Robespierre (96 + 20 = 116)

Gracchus François Jean-Baptiste Topino-Lebrun - Napoleon (2 + 20 = 22)

Antoine Louis Albitte - Napoleon (10 + 20 = 30)

Lucien Bonaparte - Napoleon (17 + 20 = 37)

Paul François Jean Nicolas Barras - Napoleon (12 + 20 = 32)

Louis Marie de La Révellière-Lépeaux - Robespierre (36 + 20 = 56)

Jean-François Reubell - Robespierre (94 + 20 = 114)

Joseph Fouché - Robespierre (62 + 20 = 82)
 
During French revolution, proto-communism was Gracchus Babeuf (equality of wealth/goods - egalite des biens). The army was meritocratic (anyone, from ex-slave to noble, could rise in rank if successful). The tiers-etat and early revolutionary leaders (including Robespierre) were oligarchic (the right to vote was restricted to wealthy people only by the OTL constitution).

I am not sure who was allowed to vote in the ITTL election but if it is something like OTL, then Robespierre's election could actually be the reaction of the wealthy elite against a nobody (Brian) and a (-n extremely) impoverished ex-nobleman being on the top.

And if so, the actions against Robespierre's opponents could be the reaction crushing the people's hope.
 
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I am not sure who was allowed to vote in the ITTL election but if it is something like OTL, then Robespierre's election could actually be the reaction of the wealthy elite against a nobody (Brian) and a (-n extremely) impoverished ex-nobleman being on the top.
Voting Sufferege is still pretty much the exact same as it was in the original constitution, mostly due to voter suppression (of Napoleon's and Brians allies in Paris) and just the constitutions voting laws not being updated with every changed government.

No matter how much Brian pushed in his limited time in office to expand suffrage.

Brian tried to do a lot of things in office... but was stonewalled by either Robe, his brother in law, the Senate, or all three.
And if so, the actions against Robespierre's opponents could be the reaction crushing the people's hope.
And of course, the start of something else entirely.

Speaking of, the actions here are really ducking insane, especially since many ministers and generals... agree that the situation has gone horribly wrong.
 
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Heck isn't there a good number of people all around France that aren't happy with the Republic and the way Robespierre is doing things? Like how many people outside of Paris were actually getting a say? Like imagine being someone that is a regular citizen that's doing fine being told from people of Paris to do something they didn't want to like enlisting in the army along with not getting paid from the Government and who knows what else. Can't forget about the religion situation either.
 
Heck isn't there a good number of people all around France that aren't happy with the Republic and the way Robespierre is doing things? Like how many people outside of Paris were actually getting a say? Like imagine being someone that is a regular citizen that's doing fine being told from people of Paris to do something they didn't want to like enlisting in the army along with not getting paid from the Government and who knows what else. Can't forget about the religion situation either.
The dissonance and disconnect of the Parisian Republicans and the rest of France are so wide that Brian and Nappy are considered kin to the rest of the country, compared to men like Robespierre.

If a republic is supposed to represent the interests of an entire nation, why are a majority of people leading the country from or around Paris, and other urban centers, and of the upper-middle or the elite classes? And not other large settlements and major locations and classes.
 
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The dissonance and disconnect of the Parisian Republicans and the rest of France are so wide that Brian and Nappy are considered kin to the rest of the country, compared to men like Robespierre.

If a republic is supposed to represent the interests of an entire nation, why are a majority of people leading the country from or around Paris, and other urban centers? And not other large settlements and major locations and classes.

The fact Brian and Napoleon seem more kin just because they are either trying to get them a voice and/or trying to fix the government says something. Probably doesn't help that Robespierre and his faction are pretty wealthy on their own.

Exactly!! Wouldn't surprise me if many settlements were asking themselves and other settlements why is Robespierre's Faction is in charge while they themselves don't get a voice. Some regions had Clergy that cared for them. So "Why" is the big question on their minds.
 
The dissonance and disconnect of the Parisian Republicans and the rest of France are so wide that Brian and Nappy are considered kin to the rest of the country, compared to men like Robespierre.

If a republic is supposed to represent the interests of an entire nation, why are a majority of people leading the country from or around Paris, and other urban centers, and of the upper-middle or the elite classes? And not other large settlements and major locations and classes.
Because the remnants of the Estates General are too 'valuable' for running the nation to be utilized in military endeavors. After all, isn't poverty and homelessness the fault of the individual's laziness? Is there not enough work for all men who simply apply themselves, especially in the army? A farmboy can become a smartly dressed hero, a beggar in the slums a fearless sergeant, a noble without connections a general who has no peer./s

The Revolution removed the monarchy and partially addressed the urban situation, but it hasn't fixed the problems of France as an entity.
 
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