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It Belongs to a Museum

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Boney said:
That is extremely true, but unless I'm misremembering (very possible), that band specifically had been living outside Rome but were pushed into it and tried to negotiate for peaceful passage through Roman land, including citing that their leaders had served in the Roman legion, and were given the response that the price for that peaceful passage would be handing over their women and children to be slaves.
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If we're talking about the visigoths-those events happened about 30 years before, while Alaric's people as of 410 were probably mostly people who at least had grown up inside Rome. Alaric was mostly looking for a high-level office in the roman military- but his people were quite a bit more provoked, because just the year before one of the most idiotic romans ever to live decided to try doing a genocide on the goths when Alaric had an army right across the alps, thereby giving him command of thousands of quite unhappy goths.
 
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Valmond said:
While complete exterminations of populations could happen, they were extremely rare.
Culminations of old grudges (like Carthage), or a ruler being utterly pissed (Alexander the Great did it to one city after a siege i think?) or horrifying insults (mongols destroying a city due to someone killing their messenger).
But even there it would be very limited in scope (a city, a valley, a tribe), not going after large ethnic groups like Belthani.
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And all of those where powerful acendent empires with huge state capcity destroying singular cities. Not genocide of an entire culture form a region by diseperate tribes who barely had the state capcity to even make cities in the first place.
 
Boney said:
They don't do extermination. Not out of any sort of moral superiority, but simply because the level of organisation required to kill so thoroughly didn't exist yet. At worst, such as during famines or ice ages, they displace as people off high quality land to take it for themself. Much more often they absorb a population or supplant its ruling class. The reason that so many European languages have words for rulers that trace back to Roman titles is that they installed themselves as rulers as the western Roman Empire crumbled. Even when extremely provoked - like with the dudes (Visigoths iirc?) that ended up sacking Rome - they didn't attempt extermination.

A fully grown person capable of working in a field or workshop right now is an astoundingly valuable resource to any perspective but an extremely modern one. And bronze age barbarians just rolling through Black Fire Pass yesterday are never never never NEVER going to be taking up so much fertile land in the Reik basin that they need to start doing genocide for lebensraum. That is such a ridiculously stupid plot point to have right next to the acknowledgment that land not being lived in by humans would soon be filled with greenskins. There is no world, not even a completely amoral Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard one, where it makes any kind of sense to do an ethnic cleansing to the Belthani. Either absorb them or shake them down for tribute. Either of which, notably, would be more likely to lead to the modern day status quo where Belthani traditions cling on in all sorts of odd corners.
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Crack headcanon:

Brettonnia is actually the result of less warlike Pre-imperial tribes/outcasts basically becoming protectors of the fleeing Belthani in exchange for food which then morphed into the feudal system canon has now. As the more war like tribes drove the Belthani out, they headed west past the grey Mountains under the protection of the Grey Mountain Dawi. More competition between the tribes, drove the weakest west as well, and they found the Belthani, but rather than trying to defeat them again, which they lacked the strength to do, they instead extorted/dealt with them for food in exchange for protection (to varying degrees of sincerity and success.)

Belthani > Brettoni > Brettonnia

Side note for flavour: The Belthani links of this version of Brettonnia would be more apparent among the peasantry. Maybe even have it being a strange clash between the Nobility's (Secretly) Elven influenced depictions of the Lady with the peasant's interpretation that's more based on the Earth Mother.
 
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xamaplak said:
I think the new lore is trying to say that the Imperial tribes worshiped Khorne :evil:
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Honestly, considering that the Teutogens were described as having attempted genocide on the Norsii in the 2nd Edition RPG lore (leading to them running away to become the Norscans), as well the implied result of how Ulric got his domain of wolves from Lupos, and then how Sigmar destroyed the Roppsmenn down to a few thousand people for killing the king of the Udoses (the rest ran away to Troll Country), one could make the argument that some of the tribes did.
 
Chaos does provide a way and reason for genocide at that tech level, there blessings can legitimately be worth losing the above mentioned craftsmen.
 
Boney said:
A fully grown person capable of working in a field or workshop right now is an astoundingly valuable resource to any perspective but an extremely modern one. [...] There is no world, not even a completely amoral Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard one, where it makes any kind of sense to do an ethnic cleansing to the Belthani. Either absorb them or shake them down for tribute.
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How prevalent would slavery have been? I know the Imperial Tribes practised it - or else Sigmar wouldn't have had to outlaw it - but your words imply it was more of a 'new subjects' type deal.


Another thing I'm wondering is how the Teutogens ended up with the Fauschlag given the Belthani could've used it, though I don't think there's enough background information to come up with an answer. Maybe because it was only good for building a city, which requires a very large agricultural base that the Belthani didn't quite have, and that the Teutogens only got after adding their own farmers to pre-existing Belthani populations?
 
Andres said:
Another thing I'm wondering is how the Teutogens ended up with the Fauschlag given the Belthani could've used it, though I don't think there's enough background information to come up with an answer. Maybe because it was only good for building a city, which requires a very large agricultural base that the Belthani didn't quite have, and that the Teutogens only got after adding their own farmers to pre-existing Belthani populations?
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That, or there's some seed of truth to the myth that Ulric flattened the top of the mountain into a plateau so that the Teutogen could build a city there.
 
Andres said:
How prevalent would slavery have been? I know the Imperial Tribes practised it - or else Sigmar wouldn't have had to outlaw it - but your words imply it was more of a 'new subjects' type deal.
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It would have varied a lot from tribe to tribe and place to place. In some places they would have been useful for construction projects and mining and the like, while in others having to feed them even when you don't have work for them to do and having to pay someone to make sure they don't run off makes them strictly worse than just taking in new subjects.

Andres said:
Another thing I'm wondering is how the Teutogens ended up with the Fauschlag given the Belthani could've used it, though I don't think there's enough background information to come up with an answer. Maybe because it was only good for building a city, which requires a very large agricultural base that the Belthani didn't quite have, and that the Teutogens only got after adding their own farmers to pre-existing Belthani populations?
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Tech tree requirements. The Fauschlag is straight up unlivable until you have at least decent coopering, and ideally water pumps and aqueducts. And it's just impractical for an agrarian society - living on top of a mountain is fine for artisans and whatnot, but do you really want to be climbing a mountain to get home after a hard day of working in the fields?
 
Boney said:
Tech tree requirements. The Fauschlag is straight up unlivable until you have at least decent coopering, and ideally water pumps and aqueducts. And it's just impractical for an agrarian society - living on top of a mountain is fine for artisans and whatnot, but do you really want to be climbing a mountain to get home after a hard day of working in the fields?
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It's great even in the neolithic for communities with pottery that are supported by surrounding farming communities. Small full-time population of priests, central store for longer-keeping foodstuffs, and serves as the local evacuation point for when a WAAAGH comes through for the farming communities around it.
 
Boney said:
The Fauschlag is straight up unlivable until you have at least decent coopering, and ideally water pumps and aqueducts.
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When I read this, I remembered that Middenheim has some kind of native water supply, and that let me to discover certain things. First, in Middenheim's wiki article, the origins of Ulricsberg are referencing WFRP 2e: Ashes of Middenheim, not WFRP 4e: Middenheim - City of the White Wolf like I thought. I've also found that WFRP 3e: Signs of Faith has some information. All three have unique information on the Fauschlag/Ulricsberg.

Ashes of Middenheim: A neighbouring dwarf clan helped the Teutogens tunnel up through the rock and establish the settlement on top. This could be extended to explain how bronze age tribesmen got the tech to found a mountaintop city.
Signs of Faith: The Teutogens discovered the mountain in -50 IC, and the lore about Ulric punching it came from a dream a High Priest had in 63 IC. The Imperial Tribes had been in the Reik Basin for like a thousand years by the time -50 IC rolled around, how did it take that long to discover it?
City of the White Wolf: After punching the mountain, Ulric hit it with his axe and hot springs flowed from the cracks, then he hit it again with his axe to make the Eternal Flame. The hot springs would make it a lot technologically easier to live in the city thanks to its ready supply of water. Page 68 even has multiple entire paragraphs dedicated to explaining the water supply:
Blessed Guild of Water Caddies
Middenheim is one of the few major settlements in the Empire that does not straddle a river. This is not to say that the city is without water, for a number of springs issue from the Fauschlag and wells have been bored down from convenient points in every district. Even so, it is not always easy to access water in the city, and the difficulty of drawing water from a well has led to the proliferation of a profession rarely seen elsewhere. Water caddies enact the back-breaking labour of wandering the city with a barrel of water strapped to their backs. Some of them ferry barrel loads to businesses and wealthy households, whilst others stand on street corners offering water at a penny a cup.

The caddies lead a hard life, and are recognised by their pronounced stoops and wheezing chests. The Guildhouse is a small timber frame structure sited to the side of a small market square, at the centre of which stands the main Neumarkt well.

Hook: It is common knowledge in Middenheim that the caddies are familiar with the layout of the city. If anyone is lost and requires the expertise of a passing caddy, it is local etiquette to offer them a penny in return for directions. Spurned caddies are quick to circulate descriptions of miserly Characters, and anyone who cheats them of their fee soon finds that they have earned a reputation for meanness throughout the city.
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Gotta love it when a sourcebook gets into detail about logistics.

Between the dwarfs and the hot springs, a mountain fortress sounds viable up there, but not finding the mountain for that long is still weird.
 
Oh here we go, WFRP 4e: Middenheim goes more into detail on the Fauschlag's settlement:
The Teutogens trace their history back nearly three thousand years, to when they were a scattered affiliation of familial bands. Many of them settled in forest villages, whilst others wandered and foraged. The Teutogens were beset by marauding Goblins and Beastmen, but traded with the Elves of Laurelorn Forest and Dwarfs of the Middle Mountains and joined them in alliance against their enemies.

[...]

In –200 IC Orcs and Goblins swept over the Middle Mountains and sacked the Dwarven hold of Karak Kazarak. This disaster proved fortuitous to the Teutogens, for bands of surviving Dwarfs came to live and work among them.

The Rise of King Artur
In –50 IC a wandering tribe of Teutogens settled about the base of the Fauschlag. Their chief was Artur, a visionary leader and fierce fighting man. He announced his intention to construct a fortress upon the rock, and petitioned Dwarfs to help. The Dwarfs discovered that burrowing through the Fauschlag was profitable as they discovered gold and precious jewels. They came to know the Fauschlag as Grungni's Tower, and regarded it with fondness. Within a few months a route was carved up to the peak and a stone keep erected atop it.
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So the Teutogens and Middle Mountain dwarves became friends by fighting beastmen and goblins. When the dwarves escaped the sacking of one of their holds, they settled with their Teutogen allies and eventually helped them found Middenheim.
 
Boney said:
Like, seriously, you're a warlike bronze age tribe looking for a new home and you arrive in an utterly immense, hugely fertile basin that you wouldn't even be close to filling up three thousand years later and find it has an established population of extremely skilled farmers who are less technologically advanced and also pacifists and also already extremely used to paying food for protection and you TRY TO KILL THEM ALL? Do you hate eating? Does the thought of food security infuriate you? Did you take a triple helping of stupid pills this morning? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
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It must be one of them pesky Beastmen historical revisionists, trying to frame the Imperial Tribes for their deeds, because food security might actually legitimately enrage a Beastman.
 
Modern DOMINATE AT ALL COSTS thought-poison I think.
Probably not helped by things like video games more often then not disallowing enemies to run away once the battle turns against them, but just…
Politics, economics, Military falling into this is a given but man.
If Khaine was here in this world he'd overthrow Asuryan in a heartbeat I think, with how much ambition is intentionally cultivated.
 
Godwinson said:
It's great even in the neolithic for communities with pottery that are supported by surrounding farming communities. Small full-time population of priests, central store for longer-keeping foodstuffs, and serves as the local evacuation point for when a WAAAGH comes through for the farming communities around it.
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On the first few floors, sure. Having to carry your drinking water up a mountain in neolithic pots seems like... well, actually, never mind, it actually seems like the sort of pain in the ass that was actually associated with longer-lasting communal societies according to the Costly Signaling Theory of Religion. Actually, now I'm wondering if the Ulrican 'make things harder on purpose' splinter might have originated with people who thought that discovering the springs in the Fauschlag made it too easy to live there.
 
Boney said:
On the first few floors, sure. Having to carry your drinking water up a mountain in neolithic pots seems like... well, actually, never mind, it actually seems like the sort of pain in the ass that was actually associated with longer-lasting communal societies according to the Costly Signaling Theory of Religion. Actually, now I'm wondering if the Ulrican 'make things harder on purpose' splinter might have originated with people who thought that discovering the springs in the Fauschlag made it too easy to live there.
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Carrying water up a mountain in pots would be a losing proposition because you'd drink so much water to stay hydrated on the round trip up and down the mountain that you probably wouldn't be able to stockpile nearly enough to live on. Having a small group of priests who live atop the holy mountain and pilgrims have to sustain them by carrying up water, something like that might work.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Carrying water up a mountain in pots would be a losing proposition because you'd drink so much water to stay hydrated on the round trip up and down the mountain that you probably wouldn't be able to stockpile nearly enough to live on. Having a small group of priests who live atop the holy mountain and pilgrims have to sustain them by carrying up water, something like that might work.
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How much water do you think it takes to climb a mountain? The unwieldness of the pot is a much bigger issue than any rocket equation nonsense.
 
Boney said:
On the first few floors, sure. Having to carry your drinking water up a mountain in neolithic pots seems like... well, actually, never mind, it actually seems like the sort of pain in the ass that was actually associated with longer-lasting communal societies according to the Costly Signaling Theory of Religion. Actually, now I'm wondering if the Ulrican 'make things harder on purpose' splinter might have originated with people who thought that discovering the springs in the Fauschlag made it too easy to live there.
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Is the mountain actually tall enough at the peak to be above not just the tree-line, but also cloud-level? I could have sworn there were trees growing in the park around that sacred flame, which means there had to be at least condensation from clouds.
 
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