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It Belongs to a Museum

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K von Carstein said:
Thanks:) When did she tried to ethincly cleanse someone?
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It's part of her backstory—she's a part of Kislev's native Ungol population, which got colonised a thousand years ago by the Gospodars. She retaliated against the Gospodars, but it's been so long that Gospodars are now native to Kislev too, and there are a lot of people of mixed bloodlines. The whole vengeance thing has started to feel pointless to her.
 
K von Carstein said:
Thanks:) When did she tried to ethincly cleanse someone?
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Please find the relevant quotes attached below:
Boney said:
Baba Niedzwenka's political opinions have historically been expressed through the medium of attempted ethnic cleansing, so nobody's asked her to weigh in.
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Boney said:
If Baba Niedzwenka still recognized the modern Ungols as her people, she'd still be killing Gospodars in their name. The king she swore to is forgotten, the language she swore in is spoken by maybe a dozen or so academics, and the Gods she swore by are no longer recognizable. The Ungols of today are as alien to her as the Gospodars were when the Khan-Queens led them to war. The only motivation of hers left that anyone's been able to identify is to not be bored.
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It kind of reminds me of the myth of King Arthur, who is allegedly supposed to return in Britain's hour of need. But Arthur is a Briton, and Briton culture vanished about 1300 years ago, replaced first by Anglo-Saxon culture and then by Norman culture. I'm actually of Norman descent myself, but I'm culturally and ethnically indistinguishable from those of Anglo-Saxon and Briton descent. From King Arthur's perspective, however, I'm the descendant of invaders and colonisers (specifically, I'm one of approximately 6 million direct descendants of William the Conqueror).
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
It kind of reminds me of the myth of King Arthur, who is allegedly supposed to return in Britain's hour of need. But Arthur is a Briton, and Briton culture vanished about 1300 years ago, replaced first by Anglo-Saxon culture and then by Norman culture. I'm actually of Norman descent myself, but I'm culturally and ethnically indistinguishable from those of Anglo-Saxon and Briton descent. From King Arthur's perspective, however, I'm the descendant of invaders and colonisers (specifically, I'm one of approximately 6 million direct descendants of William the Conqueror).
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Alternately, he'll return in the welsh hour of need specifically, sucks to be the rest of the isles.
 
reignonyrparade said:
Alternately, he'll return in the welsh hour of need specifically, sucks to be the rest of the isles.
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Part of the problem is that the Briton's were never driven out of England. They intermingled with Anglo-Saxon culture and all the Briton stuff got thrown away as "Dad Fashion". Fast forward a few generations and all the kids are all speaking Saxon and wearing Saxon clothes and jewellery. The Briton's never went away, they just got absorbed by the Anglo-Saxons.

Also it was only a few centuries ago that the Cornish started to be considered English, so I have no idea what Arthur feels about them, especially since he was born in Cornwall (allegedly).
 
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Ah, that reminds me of Once and Future by Kieron Gillen, which features this multiplicity of Arthurian myth and its evolution as an core story element.
 
Boney said:
instead of acting like the bronze age tribes they're supposed to be.
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What do bronze age tribes act like? My only two points of reference are the Sea People rolling in during the Bronze Age Collapse, and the Germanic tribes migrating into the Roman Empire to get away from the Huns (which I'm not sure count since they were iron age tribes, but were who the Imperial Tribes were based on).
 
Andres said:
What do bronze age tribes act like? My only two points of reference are the Sea People rolling in during the Bronze Age Collapse, and the Germanic tribes migrating into the Roman Empire to get away from the Huns (which I'm not sure count since they were iron age tribes, but were who the Imperial Tribes were based on).
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They don't do extermination. Not out of any sort of moral superiority, but simply because the level of organisation required to kill so thoroughly didn't exist yet. At worst, such as during famines or ice ages, they displace as people off high quality land to take it for themself. Much more often they absorb a population or supplant its ruling class. The reason that so many European languages have words for rulers that trace back to Roman titles is that they installed themselves as rulers as the western Roman Empire crumbled. Even when extremely provoked - like with the dudes (Visigoths iirc?) that ended up sacking Rome - they didn't attempt extermination.

A fully grown person capable of working in a field or workshop right now is an astoundingly valuable resource to any perspective but an extremely modern one. And bronze age barbarians just rolling through Black Fire Pass yesterday are never never never NEVER going to be taking up so much fertile land in the Reik basin that they need to start doing genocide for lebensraum. That is such a ridiculously stupid plot point to have right next to the acknowledgment that land not being lived in by humans would soon be filled with greenskins. There is no world, not even a completely amoral Hard Men Making Hard Decisions While Hard one, where it makes any kind of sense to do an ethnic cleansing to the Belthani. Either absorb them or shake them down for tribute. Either of which, notably, would be more likely to lead to the modern day status quo where Belthani traditions cling on in all sorts of odd corners.
 
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Like, seriously, you're a warlike bronze age tribe looking for a new home and you arrive in an utterly immense, hugely fertile basin that you wouldn't even be close to filling up three thousand years later and find it has an established population of extremely skilled farmers who are less technologically advanced and also pacifists and also already extremely used to paying food for protection and you TRY TO KILL THEM ALL? Do you hate eating? Does the thought of food security infuriate you? Did you take a triple helping of stupid pills this morning? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
 
That is extremely true, but unless I'm misremembering (very possible), that band specifically had been living outside Rome but were pushed into it and tried to negotiate for peaceful passage through Roman land, including citing that their leaders had served in the Roman legion, and were given the response that the price for that peaceful passage would be handing over their women and children to be slaves.
 
Boney said:
Like, seriously, you're a warlike bronze age tribe looking for a new home and you arrive in an utterly immense, hugely fertile basin that you wouldn't even be close to filling up three thousand years later and find it has an established population of extremely skilled farmers who are less technologically advanced and also pacifists and also already extremely used to paying food for protection and you TRY TO KILL THEM ALL? Do you hate eating? Does the thought of food security infuriate you? Did you take a triple helping of stupid pills this morning? What the actual fuck is wrong with you?
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Nevermind extremely skilled farmers, any humans at all would be worth more as a laborers than... I'm not what the alternative is. Barging rights? It is just remarkably stupid on the face of it.
 
While complete exterminations of populations could happen, they were extremely rare.
Culminations of old grudges (like Carthage), or a ruler being utterly pissed (Alexander the Great did it to one city after a siege i think?) or horrifying insults (mongols destroying a city due to someone killing their messenger).
But even there it would be very limited in scope (a city, a valley, a tribe), not going after large ethnic groups like Belthani.
 
The Sea Peoples are also an off scale situation. I've taken a look into the timeframe because of references in one story or another but effectively? While not as sophisticated as modern routes there was a wide range of trade routes disrupted (Tin shortages i believe) and famines that screwed several things over. I can't find the site site with the map I remember but it was a fun read.
 
Kurohyo said:
The Sea Peoples are also an off scale situation. I've taken a look into the timeframe because of references in one story or another but effectively? While not as sophisticated as modern routes there was a wide range of trade routes disrupted (Tin shortages i believe) and famines that screwed several things over. I can't find the site site with the map I remember but it was a fun read.
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The sea peoples also weren't a single group, but a collective name for at least 6 distinct cultures who took to raiding to survive after a climate disaster drove them from their traditional homelands.

The tin shortages (which may have been imported from Tintagel, Cornwall, future birthplace of King Arthur), meant that the empires of the time couldn't make bronze, which meant they couldn't repair their weapons and armour (and most importantly, their war chariots), resulting in a bit of a death spiral as they were less able to recover from each successive raid.

Throw in the aforementioned climate crisis causing food scarcity and all the social issues associated with that, and you have the perfect recipe for the death of civilization.

It's very much an atypical scenario, and shouldn't be used as the basis for how bronze age tribes actually interacted with each other.
 
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