It Belongs to a Museum

The Scythians could have got metalworking tech from the Chaos Dwarves, either directly or from the Hobgoblin Khanates they would have bordered.
My guess would be they got metalworking tech long before the Chaos Dwarves existed. It would've made it way more feasible to found their cities in the far north of the world, and would also mean that if you crack open their oldest tombs, they'll look just like the Warhammer Fantasy Battles miniatures of the Vampire Counts armies.

Another thing is that they had cities in what is now geographically the Northern Wastes. Given that those cities are ruined, I think they were destroyed by daemonic incursion, which would mean they were built before the Great Catastrophe. If they were building cities so close to the polar gate, perhaps they had contact with Old Ones or lizardmen, from whom they could've gotten the technology (if from the lizardmen, they would've started with goldsmithing then developed other metalsmithing themselves).
 
Another thing is that they had cities in what is now geographically the Northern Wastes. Given that those cities are ruined, I think they were destroyed by daemonic incursion, which would mean they were built before the Great Catastrophe.

I'm very hesitant to draw any chronological data about anything from the Northern Wastes, both in-universe and out of it. ICly Time and causation break down that far north, and OOCly there seem to be a lot of 'lost civilization' and 'forgotten peoples' and 'before the dawn of time' just thrown in to explain one-off backdrops for various battles and events without any attempt to figure out where in the civilizational timeline it fits in.
 
I'm very hesitant to draw any chronological data about anything from the Northern Wastes, both in-universe and out of it. ICly Time and causation break down that far north, and OOCly there seem to be a lot of 'lost civilization' and 'forgotten peoples' and 'before the dawn of time' just thrown in to explain one-off backdrops for various battles and events without any attempt to figure out where in the civilizational timeline it fits in.
Cough in Malekith finding a mysterious crown of Hubris in the Chaos God's backyard and deciding to put it on
 
Voting closed, writing has begun. The fight for this fish is a fight to the death.

Adhoc vote count started by Boney on Feb 28, 2025 at 3:11 AM, finished with 227 posts and 59 votes.
 
My guess would be they got metalworking tech long before the Chaos Dwarves existed. It would've made it way more feasible to found their cities in the far north of the world, and would also mean that if you crack open their oldest tombs, they'll look just like the Warhammer Fantasy Battles miniatures of the Vampire Counts armies.
Are the Scythians not the main source of barrow wights and such?
 
Good good hopefully this is the first step to getting the sea elf audience & then the arby audience
 
I'm curious if the barrows at the edges of Athel Loren are also them, or just ancient Bretonni.
 
Heinrich Kemmler has written many a paper worrying about when excavations will lead the Old World into hitting "Peak Wight".
Possible also while complaining about all the other Necromancers ignoring the various barrows containing former Chaos Champions, just sitting around the place, none of them seem to be willing to take after his example and get themselves a dedicated leg breaker who's actually good at the job lol
 
There's some evidence in WFRP 4e that the Empire's barrow people may just be Belthani.

Archives of the Empire 3, Cult of the Old Faith, page 56
There is not any one true Old Faith, it is a collection of beliefs and traditions that date back to the time before the gods as they are currently understood were worshipped.

Adherents of the Old Faith are organised around the family, with long lineages closely associated with Ishernos, the godand-goddess figure seen as governing nature and fertility. The most exalted are the Druidic Families, who see themselves as descendants of Belthani shamans.

Dark Druids
Ancient tribes that migrated north into the Empire practised many types of spirit-magic, including mortuary rituals that would later influence necromancy. The oldest druidic circles often consist of waystones repurposed into animal totems in the likeness of old southern gods. Mounds and dolmens housing the remains of barrow kings are sometimes guarded by these statues. Over the centuries, witch hunters and Jade Wizards have driven Old Faith druids into obscurity by claiming that their nature gods are truly Chaos daemons.

Medhe was a very important figure to the folk who settled in the ancient Vorbergland, and many barrows are decorated with his sigil.
Mheava is a Vorberglander.

Page 60, History of the Hedge Witches
When the Belthani, the early tribes, first arrived in the lands that would become the Empire, there were hedge witches among the people. Such folk practised their arts openly, brewing potions, crafting charms, and advising tribal chiefs. As the tribes settled in different regions, distinct traditions evolved. In Averland, hedge witches are thought to arise from the rites practised by Brigundian priest-kings; in Nordland and Ostland, there is evidence to suggest that the worship of a nearly forgotten goddess, Halétha the Guardian, gave rise to the customs local hedge witches follow; in nearby Middenland, a divine 'Chieftain of Cats', presumed by many to be an antecedent of Ranald, is credited as a divine progenitor; and in Wissenland, folk have come to believe that hedge witches were inspired by Verena, who blessed them with a gift of wisdom and arcane knowledge.

Page 66, Foundation of the Cult [of Rhya]
Rhya's devotees have always been simple folk who live from the land, so written histories of the cult are rare and unreliable. Oral traditions are little better, as they evolve and change to suit the listener rather than present literal truth.

The most primitive Humans that first migrated to the Old World needed to stave off hunger and to find shelter from predators and the cold. They venerated a god known as Ishernos, who represented respect and fear of nature and provided protection from the harsh world. Theologians posit that this god later split into Taal and Rhya, with the latter bestowing the blessings of spring and summer — new life and food foraged and hunted from the land.

As the tribes gave up their nomadic lives to settle, they revered her as the Earth Mother, who is said to have brought the secret of agriculture. The Belthani, as the earliest Human tribes are called, believed that Rhya gave them the gift of domesticated grain, tamed animals, and the secrets of farming. In gratitude, the Belthani venerated Rhya at the mysterious stone circles they discovered across the land. A rudimentary priesthood developed from the women who guarded the secrets given by Rhya. Some scholars think Rhya is a modern incarnation of the goddess venerated by the Old Faith. Others consider her the first civilising god, bringing settlement and order to the capriciousness of nature.

As more tribes settled, those who depended most on farming favoured Rhya over the other primal gods. The Asoborns, Bretonni, the Brigundians and the Menogoths gave the goddess special reverence. The Taleuten tribe gave Taal a dominant role, but worshipped Rhya as his divine consort.

Archives of the Empire 1, page 70
The Frugelhorn was long believed by the ancient Belthani tribes of the eastern Grey Mountains to be a place of particular spirituality — a locus of the power of nature. For a time, the mountain slopes nearest the glacier and the lake became a favoured place to build burial mounds for chiefs and priests.

Krell, who had been a Chaos Champion nearly a millennium and a half before Sigmar's birth, was slain by a Dwarf hero, Grimbul Ironhelm, and buried by his followers in a barrow tomb amid the Belthani dead.

WFRP 1e: Dwarfs - Stone and Steel says that human tribes entered the Reik Basin from the south. Mheava speaks Language (Classical). Further, there's an adventure in One Shots of the Reikland where you're dealing with an Unberogen wight called Kurgorn Three-Eyes, one of the effects of his haunting is messages in Classical manifesting on the walls.


So, weaving this all together. The Belthani migrated in from the south, speaking Classical as southerners do, and potentially carrying beliefs and mortuary practices influenced by Nehekhara. However, the Belthani were not a homogenous or static group. They had different magical traditions, hedge magic among them, and their religious practices differed across time and space between Old Faith, Ishernos, and Rhya. At least some of the Belthani were barrow builders, and it's possible some Belthani tribes were more warlike than others, so it could be their people who necromancers raise up as wights.

The Scythian practice of barrow-building was coincidental. The Scythians came up with it independently, while the Belthani got the practice from emulating Nehekhara or from also developing it independently. (WFRP 2e: Realm of the Ice Queen page 46 says that Kislev has both Belthani and Scythian ruins, so maybe they had contact with each other. How or if they influenced each other's burial practices would be a question though.)

The linguistics in this theory are troublesome. An Unberogen is speaking Classical instead of his own language, though that can be explained by conquerors adopting the tongue of a conquered people. What's trickier to explain is the Belthani speaking Classical at all. Sure they came from the south, but then why is translating their writing so difficult? Did the Tileans/Estalians and Belthani speak the language but develop different ways of writing with it? Further, Archives 3 gives Hedge Witches access to Language (Belthani), not Language (Classical); was this intentional or an oversight? Is Language (Belthani) essentially modern Classical, changed after thousands of years?
 
Answering the mystery of the origins of the Belthani, with their wildly differing religion and writing and traditions and predating any other human arrival on the continent, with 'they're just Tileans that went right instead of left (and somehow got there a few centuries before the Tileans got to Tilea, don't worry about it)' feels like an abandoned opportunity on 4e's part. Also just looked into them a bit more and I'm not a fan of them apparently being an explicitly pacifist uwu soft bean civilization that hadn't advanced past the stone age until the Dwarves took pity on them and then got gratuitously colonialismed by the arrival of the Imperial Tribes who had looked into the future and saw the word 'imperial' in the name they were being described by and so decided to do a genocide instead of acting like the bronze age tribes they're supposed to be. And the Dwarves, you know, the Dwarves, those oh so very realpolitik, brutally practical, ready to abandon their word when it's convenient, not all that big on honour people? The Dwarves just shrugged and halfheartedly said 'no stop' as these people they had extremely longstanding positive relations with and in some cases were explicitly allied with got slaughtered because they thought these more warlike neighbours might be more useful allies. The Dwarves let a genocide of their allies happen because they thought the genociders would be more useful allies? The most they did was negotiate to get the genocide downgraded to an ethnic cleansing in some places?

I had just meant to glance over the lore to compare it to what I felt was the more interesting deep dark forest druids, the type Julius Caesar gestured wildly at in his memoirs to excuse his getting booted back across the English Channel that first time, tenacious bastards that got outnumbered and outteched but still cling on in dark corners of the setting. But I'm gobsmacked by what appears to be someone's inverse donut steel civilization, what used to be filed under 'Victim Sue', where the Belthani are apparently the saddest softest smollest boy getting shoved into a locker even though it's their birthday and they're wearing glasses, they're just a little birthday boy. This is just pure melodrama. This is baby's first pathos. What in the goddamn.

...anyway, what I was trying to say is, 4e's take on the Belthani probably isn't going to be very compatible with mine.
 
And the Dwarves, you know, the Dwarves, those oh so very realpolitik, brutally practical, ready to abandon their word when it's convenient, not all that big on honour people? The Dwarves just shrugged and halfheartedly said 'no stop' as these people they had extremely longstanding positive relations with and in some cases were explicitly allied with got slaughtered because they thought these more warlike neighbours might be more useful allies. The Dwarves let a genocide of their allies happen because they thought the genociders would be more useful allies? The most they did was negotiate to get the genocide downgraded to an ethnic cleansing in some places?
Elf-fan propaganda. :p
 
Speaking of, @Boney if dwarves have a grudge against someone for harming an ally, is that grudge carried to the perpetrator's descendent even if that descendent is also the ally's descendent? Or is this a grey enough area that the grudgelore specialists have to get called in?

Your post reminded me of the Sea Hag in Divided Loyalties, how she eventually stopped her ethnic cleansing because of demographic shifts.
 
Personally I see the Belthani as equivalent to the early to late Stone Age European cultures, being a catch all term for a wide variety scattered cultures inhabiting the future imperial lands, with the predecessors to the imperial cultures being equivalent to the Yamnaya culture that brought horse use and bronze into Europe.
 
Speaking of, @Boney if dwarves have a grudge against someone for harming an ally, is that grudge carried to the perpetrator's descendent even if that descendent is also the ally's descendent? Or is this a grey enough area that the grudgelore specialists have to get called in?

Your post reminded me of the Sea Hag in Divided Loyalties, how she eventually stopped her ethnic cleansing because of demographic shifts.

The way I figure it is that inherited Grudges can be materially made up for, even if only blood would have sufficed from the original perpetrator. So if both sides of the Grudge get inherited by the same person or people, it's a wash.

So if you replaced the Sea Hag with a Dwarfhold, there'd be an envoy making an overture for reparations from Erengrad every generation or so, and then the matter gets kicked over to those wise in Grudgelore when it's pointed out that Kislev is a multicultural state now, rather than a Gospodar one with Ungol subjects. They'll probably have meetings with local Ungol leaders to get a better read on the situation, and probably end up throwing their influence behind improving conditions and opportunities for Ungols.

Or, sad ending, there's never a pause in hostilities for long enough for there to be an entire generation without blood on their hands from the cycle of vengeance, so it just keeps going on indefinitely. The Sea Hag being pretty much immune to reprisals is probably a big part of why she mellowed out over the years.
 
This is just pure melodrama. This is baby's first pathos. What in the goddamn.
The fact that it's such a footnote is genuinely annoying to me. There's a genuinely interesting story to be told there about a true low-point of the Karaz Ankor in the lead-up to the War of Vengeance, but all it gets is two sentences tacked on to the end of four short paragraphs on the Belthani. If you're going to write something like that, at least make something out of it!
 
Snorri and Maletith had an agreement in how to treat the humans.
This reminds me of the current turn with hunting the sea beasts to please the elves.
 
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