In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

[Kelenas]

I was thinking more along the lines of him basically going and researching Scorpion superstitions and their origins, then discarding some of the more obvious and popular ones as a show of "I'm smarter than you and know better what I'm doing with all this".
I imagine he might still be doing that, researching Scorpion superstitions, I mean, though by now with a more scholarly bent; curiosity about where they come from, which ones the Scorpion shares with other clans, that sort of thing.

 

[Sirrocco]

I sort of get the feeling that he's not heavily into religion. Between Sage and Crab Hands, he had enough to do in his youth that I can't see him spending *all* that much time and effort on religion as well. I could totally see him crafting an "I'm smarter than you" personal theology when in his obnoxious stage, but... well, with wisdom, those are often discarded, as their flaws become apparent once one is not so intent on using them to thin highly of onesself. Given the reaction when he's blessed by Yogo Hanzo before the geisha house, he certainly feels at least some reverence for the spirits, but religious experiences aren't all that common for him.

I'd think... maybe he has a single favorite fortune he prays to from time to time? Perhaps one that's a little unusual? It seems like the sort of thing that he might have retained as a last vestige of his earlier "smarter than you" philosophy. Other than that, I rather like the tack that @gman391 takes on things. as for which fortune... well, I'll have to look into that one.

 

[gman391]

Well traditionally the Scorpion revere Jurojin Fortune of Longevity over all others. His ability to know everything animals know means we value his ability to ferret out secrets. Of the other seven they also have special reverence for Daikoku Fortune of Wealth

But we could also going with our Magistrate heritage choose to revere Saibankan Fortune of Magistrates and Law more than others.

Alternately as a holdover from our hipster days we could revere Muzaka, Fortune of Enigma he's obscure and said to wander the Empire looking for people who have new puzzles.

Beyond that, I guess we could go for Kobiru-Tadashiko Fortune of Understanding.

 

[Sirrocco]

Okay... s here's the list I came up with (before reading @gman391's list)

- Ebisu: Fortune of Hard Work. A bit on the odd side, for a Scorpion samurai. Far to busy to bless or curse anyone. Favored peasants, who worked harder than anyone and got less reward.
- Muzaka: Fortune of enigmas. Obscure enough that most people didn't even know he existed. Works well as a personal fortune of "I'm smarter than you". Walks the earth once a year handing out puzzling visions. Most who receive them cannot make sense fo them Most who make sense of them and seek to exploit them suffer for it. A few manage to be strong enough of mind and will to make proper use of them, and those do quite well.
- Saibankan: Fortune of magistrates and judges (originally a Scorpion). May well have been the fortune he was raised with.
- Tsugumu: Fortune of Secrets. Very little is known about him.

 

[veekie]

I like Muzaka or Tsugumu.

 

[Sirrocco]

"I follow Tsugumu, fortune of Secrets."
"Ah? Does he offer any sort of blessings or curses?"
"That, I have yet to determine... and I suspect that if I had, he would not approve of me telling you."

edit: to clarify, I like Tsugumu.

 

[Dirtnap]

I'm partial to Muzaka as a personal fortune. Perhaps Saibankan for a family or Clan fortune?

 

[A Nation's Virtue]

I support Saibankan, Tsugumu, and Muzaka. I'd probably go with Saibankan being the least important to him though considering that he's not a Soshi Magistrate.

 

[Garlak]

What are the "maximum bookworm nerd" Fortunes?

"Indeed, Asako-sama, and doubtless many would have liked to believe that the problems of the world could be solved in such an elegant fashion." You say dryly. "It was merely unfortunate that both the Crane and Scorpion could make strong claim on being the Clan of Air. And while Gorinno-san's solution of simply combining the two Clans to make one is likewise elegantly simple, I suspect the honourable monk might have been disappointed with the outcome."

Click to shrink...

Also: Could her bringing up the 5 Rings Heresy have been a dig, or maybe just an attempt to steer the conversation, towards our meetings with the Crane? See how we feel about it or anything?

By the way:

"That bowman is attacking Otomo-sama!" You roar, as loudly and clearly as if you were on the battlefield, and all across the street people stiffen to attention. "Try to take him alive!"

There are half a dozen Lion samurai on the street, a patrol of some kind having emerged from an adjoining alley just in time to witness everything, and they react with commendable speed. Four of them turn and charge off towards the bowman, the crowds parting around them like waves before a ship's keel, while the other two close upon you and the Otomo at a flat run.

If the assassin feels angry or frustrated at the failure of their ambush, it does not show in their stance. Instead, they abandon the bow where they kneel and turn to flee, dropping down on the far side of the building and vanishing from your line of sight.

Click to shrink...

Did the Matsu manage to chase down the would-be assassin or did they get away? Or is it that we're expected to leave things to the local magistrates to handle and thus nobody would think to tell us; but if so, then we'd probably be curious about it in our own.

So, have we heard anything more about the assassin?

 

[primemountain]

So, yeah. Mission creep. Best to claim victory and go home.

By the way, I'd like to make clear in general (and to @primemountain in particular) - I don't want to discourage bursts of paranoia. We really are upsetting people, and some of them are liable to be hypercompetent. Coming up with paranoid conspiracy theories is like a brainstorming phase for the process of identifying actual plausble threats. It's useful. For example, the Crane may well be setting us up for a carrot-and-stick approach using their Kakita as the stick, and thinking about that *now* gets us better positioned to defend against it. Given that, for example... well, does he really have a thing for Doji Mariko, or is that just the game the Crane have decided to play?

Worth noting that the following are people who do matter, who we've never met, and who are our job as far as our delegation is concerned.
- The Kaiu
- The Yoritomo
- The Tsuruchi
- The Kakita
- The Shiba

Of those five, three seem likely to wish to do us harm. Some effort to learn more about them might be in order.

We haven't really met the Dragon or the Unicorn yet, either, but Yogo Hanzo is handling those. At some point, we'll want to ask him about the Unicorn, and what he's managed to figure out about their goals. Still, that seems less pressing.

Click to shrink...

Thanks. Most of the time playing devils advocate is a thankless job. But it is a useful role. By looking at the situation in a different way we might be able to think of something we missed or draw some additional insight. It's nice to talk to someone who gets it.

About the fortunes: Soshi is big on knowledge but we allready established he had a bratty phase. I think I got something that might fit his character:

[ X ] "I've great respect for Hotei. Inded, his leasons were most difficult to take in. I was quite a rumbustious child. But while Hotei's grace is one i greatlly appreaciate" he pondered, as his eyes lowered for a moment, onto his robes and his Clan mon," personally I've come to favor Kobiru-Tadashiko." finish with a smile.

Give her a moment, then continue in a solemn voice:"Learning, the gathering of knowledge is something I am quite adept at. But knowledge must be tempered by understanding, lest it cut, rather then mend."

**************
I would say Soshi feels like his life is dedicated primarilly to Hotei and Kobiru-Tadashiko. His piety has little to do with temples however. In his mind His prayaers to Hotei are everyday, when he resists temptatons, and finds joy in the little of things. He tries to pray to him every week, but it is a learned habit, something he picked up after being sent from home. He is more likely to go to Hotei's shrine when his resolve is tested, or he is esppetially stressed. Hotei's teaching were grilled into him in the Bushi school.

He was not at all a religious child, but Kobiru-Tadashiko is a fortune he discovered after accepting Hotei. He is closer to Soshi in a personal sense, just easier to worship. He thanks him occasionally, when an espsially potent understanding is discovered, or an espesially good conversation is had. It is likely he sent his thanks(silently in his head, as he is wont to) to Kobiru-Tadashiko during his first talk with Asako Tani, for blessing him with the company of a Loremaster.

PS: Kobiru-Tadashiko is the fortune of understanding.

 

[Wade Garrett]

I sort of get the feeling that he's not heavily into religion. Between Sage and Crab Hands, he had enough to do in his youth that I can't see him spending *all* that much time and effort on religion as well.

Click to shrink...

I sort of disagree with this. That is, it seems to me that in Rokugan, it's not so much "I have my time for learning weapons, my time for learning general knowledge stuff, and my time for religion stuff"; instead it's all mixed up together.

That is, you don't spend all day studying general knowledge, then you go to the temple and take a few minutes for the Fortune of Understanding, the learning and acquiring new knowledge so that it casts light on the knowledge you already have...it's all part of revering the Fortune, it's all your religion.

I support Saibankan, Tsugumu, and Muzaka. I'd probably go with Saibankan being the least important to him though considering that he's not a Soshi Magistrate.

Click to shrink...

Well, that's going to say a lot about his relationship with mom, dad, his siblings, etc, isn't it? I mean...if he was brought up in a household that reverse Saibankan, that's the Fortune all his immediate family favors, and Naoto's feelings on the Lawgiver are "Meh, I can take him or leave him", that suggests that even after the Bayushi hammered the brat out of him there's still going to be distance between him and the rest of his family.

 

[Wade Garrett]

And with that said...I'd like to make a case for Saibankan.

While he is the Fortune of Law and Justice, that doesn't mean someone who values learning, wisdom, subtlety, and...shall we say, creatively interpreting Law and Justice is unwelcome in Saibankan's congregation.


Pictured: Not Saibankan

Before he was a Fortune, Saibankan was a judge famed for his fairness....and for his wisdom. He was, dare I say it, a sage, who handed down his judgments in parables.

Because if you're going to be just and fair, it behooves you to first acquire wisdom and knowledge. Not just about law, but in general.

And of course, he also saw the value of the peasant class (at least when he could use them, right Nanbu family?) And when he retired from the Imperial Court he came home and spent his days teaching the Scorpion Clan all the loopholes and dodges in the laws he'd written for the Emperor.

So, wise man, looks out for the little people (when they can be of use to him), loyal to Clan Scorpion above all else...sound like anybody we know?

 

[racnor]

Nice quest. It's pretty rare for a quest to get me into a new setting, so congrats.

I'm partial to Muzaka or Saibankan myself.

 

[Maugan Ra]

Hm... weren't the Scorpion highly superstitious, but of the sort that don't really think about said superstitions, or pay them no mind?

Click to shrink...

The Scorpion do indeed tend to be highly superstitious, both in ways shared with the rest of the Empire and a whole load of additional beliefs and habits created by their own unique culture. For example, twins are considered to be highly auspicious, but triplets are an unsettling portent of doom. Obviously things vary depending on the individual, but generally you'll see the following depending on the family.

The Bayushi tend to be highly superstitious, adopting all manner of habits and mannerisms from a wide range of sources. Other samurai might be able to rely on their pure hearts to keep them on the right path and ward off fear, but the Bayushi need something else to serve instead.

The Shosuro are cold pragmatists, and tend to eschew most of the habits that their lords observe. The habits that they observe tend to be purely practical, or else observed as a way of encouraging useful habits.

The Soshi are likewise practical, ignoring superstition... unless it is based on a spiritual belief, in which case they observe it closely (rats are sacred to Daikoku, and as such are respected, for example). This comes from being a family of Shugenja.

The Yogo are incredibly superstitious. Every member of the Yogo bloodline is intimately aware of just how badly the divine or a random act of fate can screw you over, as exemplified in their Curse, so they do everything they can to avoid any perceived source of bad luck even as they cling to auspicious events and habits with a ferocious strength.

As always, it is worth remembering that in Rokugan, superstition and ritual might very well work. The Fortunes and your ancestors are watching, and there have been many cases of them being pleased or offended by something they observe and showering rewards or retribution upon the land in response.

By the way:

Did the Matsu manage to chase down the would-be assassin or did they get away? Or is it that we're expected to leave things to the local magistrates to handle and thus nobody would think to tell us; but if so, then we'd probably be curious about it in our own.

So, have we heard anything more about the assassin?

Click to shrink...

You've heard that the attempted assassin got away, but no one has thought to share any further details on the rest of the investigation with you.

 

[Sirrocco]

Huh. I can see that. Indeed, I could totally see us following Tsugumu, but being utterly unwilling to let anyone else know that, and then having another fortune (say, Saibankan) as cover. No one must suspect. Also, having some significant part of your life and self that you keep completely hidden from everyone at all times is good practice.

 

[Maugan Ra]

For the record, there's no requirement to condense everything in this one down into a vote. I enjoy reading the discussion, and as a general sort of consensus builds I can use that to construct my own notes as to what Naoto's own beliefs are. Which will be rather important later on in the Quest, when the plans of other factions and entities begin moving.

 

[Sirrocco]

Incidentally, a line for Naoto to use on Doji Mariko at some point...

"If you'd had the proper training, and did not feel the need to constrain yourself by the rules so much, I think you might have become an excellent Scorpion." A pause, and then a sly smile spreads over our face. "Who knows the whims of Fate? You might yet."

Complementary, a bit risque, with a touch of raw, cocky ambition/challenge.

 

[racnor]

I'm not sure about Tsugumu myself. The very little info I can find on him suggests he's more about keeping secrets locked away than exposing them. A good fortune for those who actually have huge things to hide, but perhaps not for one who seeks out those secrets and utilizes them.

 

[Sirrocco]

I'm not sure about Tsugumu myself. The very little info I can find on him suggests he's more about keeping secrets locked away than exposing them. A good fortune for those who actually have huge things to hide, but perhaps not for one who seeks out those secrets and utilizes them.

Click to shrink...

Ahhh... but we are both. Tsugumu for the hiding, and Saibankan for the finding. Certainly we already have some secrets that we'd much prefer not get out. Let's see...

- Current plan to betray Doji Mariko, the what, the how, the who for, and everything
- That whole Pale Oak thing. Almost all of it, really
- The existence of the sound wards carved into the room of the Scorpion delegation
- The fact that the scribes we're loaning the Lion are, in fact, a pack of spies
- The fact that we're about to testify to something that is at best a story based on the truth, and that we were happy to lie in sworn testimony if it had turns out not to be true.
- The fact that we're cultivating one of the serving maids as a spy for the Scorpion

That's not including the secrets that we walked in with - it's just new stuff. That's not a bad list for how long we've been here. I'm sure it'll grow.

 

[racnor]

Ahhh... but we are both. Tsugumu for the hiding, and Saibankan for the finding. Certainly we already have some secrets that we'd much prefer not get out. Let's see...

- Current plan to betray Doji Mariko, the what, the how, the who for, and everything
- That whole Pale Oak thing. Almost all of it, really
- The existence of the sound wards carved into the room of the Scorpion delegation
- The fact that the scribes we're loaning the Lion are, in fact, a pack of spies
- The fact that we're about to testify to something that is at best a story based on the truth, and that we were happy to lie in sworn testimony if it had turns out not to be true.
- The fact that we're cultivating one of the serving maids as a spy for the Scorpion

That's not including the secrets that we walked in with - it's just new stuff. That's not a bad list for how long we've been here. I'm sure it'll grow.

Click to shrink...

Blarg, I was unclear. I meant that it seems like Tsugumu would disapprove of exposing secrets.

 

[primemountain]

@Sirrocco: Yeahhhh. Except none of those are actual secrets. Not the way Tsugumu counts them. Have you read this:

" Samurai in possession of knowledge too dangerous or too painful to bear came to them to share his secrets. The knowledge was thereafter guarded by the power of the Fortune, and it could not be revealed using any means, magical or physical. "

This is his main job. Why would we worship him? The secrets we keep are the useful ones and we share them with our alies. Like out boss. And our underlings. I really do not think we should be worshiping Tsugumu. I feel like the Scorpion protects the Silent ones, not that he is an actually Scorpion fortune. After all, secrets too dangerous to share are often useless, since we are not ready to pay the price of using them.

I think understanding what knowledge to keep to ourselves, and what can be safely spread is closer to our charcter, then someone who gathers knowledge and keeps it to himself. Thus, Kobiru-Tadashiko.

Well, that's going to say a lot about his relationship with mom, dad, his siblings, etc, isn't it? I mean...if he was brought up in a household that reverse Saibankan, that's the Fortune all his immediate family favors, and Naoto's feelings on the Lawgiver are "Meh, I can take him or leave him", that suggests that even after the Bayushi hammered the brat out of him there's still going to be distance between him and the rest of his family.

Click to shrink...

I think his opinion is more that it is not a fortune made for him. And that his first majoy assigment(which this is) is his chance to prove the value of his path to his family, that he is, at least partially, estranged from. Remember, they had to send him away. It fits, at least for me. Soshi just does not feel like a judge to me.

 

[Sirrocco]

@Sirrocco: Yeahhhh. Except none of those are actual secrets. Not the way Tsugumu counts them. Have you read this:

" Samurai in possession of knowledge too dangerous or too painful to bear came to them to share his secrets. The knowledge was thereafter guarded by the power of the Fortune, and it could not be revealed using any means, magical or physical. "

Click to shrink...

I have not. Where is this quote from? Also, since you appear to have sources that I do not, was there strong reason to believe that that was the only kind of secret he cared about? I'd still think that the things I listed would fall under the conventional definition of "secret", and therefore, by default, under his purview. Just because they are not the real world-breakers that he offers his actual blessing to hide doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't invoke him in a more religious way about the less important, more personal ones. Again, if there is a quote in there that makes it clear that no, Tsugumu doesn't care about the small stuff, then I'd like to see it. I admit I'm working off of pretty seriously limited information.

Similarly, I don't know a whole lot about Kobiru-Tadashiko. You seem to know more. Could you share more of what you know? All I really have is "Fortune of Understanding". To me, "understanding" in and of itself doesn't sound like something we focus on as much. Little details like mortal life (if there was one), sacred things, practices of the monks and so forth would give a much better idea of what "understanding" means in this particular context.

 

[primemountain]

I just got it of the wiki.

Thousand Fortunes

Tsugumu page mentions the Silent ones, an order dedicated to him, and the quote is from their page. Sure you can assume regular secrets fall under his purview (and that seems logical), but could you provide for Tsugumu what you asked of me? "Little details like mortal life (if there was one), sacred things, practices of the monks and so forth would give a much better idea of what "secrets" means in this particular context."

To me, "understanding" in and of itself doesn't sound like something we focus on as much.

Click to shrink...

I think we really do understanding well. Crab hands can be seen as trying to understand every weapon style at least supperficially. Sage can be seeking understanding on as wide a range of topics as we can.

Similarlly, our rings focus on fire, if we were focused on secrets would we not have a focus on Awarness and Perception? Allowing us to better ferret out secrets? Our main ring is Inteligence, the one that leads towards understanding. Agility to adapt to new understanding of situations as they develop. It just seems right to me.

EDIT: Anyone know is that link is frowned upon on this board due to copyright concerns? Should I have not put it up?

 

[A Nation's Virtue]

After looking my copy of Emerald Empire over, I think Saibankan's the way to go. He's not only the founder of the Magistrates, but also the Fortune that Scorpions pray to to avoid detection from the law.

 

[Sirrocco]

I just got it of the wiki.

Thousand Fortunes

Tsugumu page mentions the Silent ones, an order dedicated to him, and the quote is from their page. Sure you can assume regular secrets fall under his purview (and that seems logical), but could you provide for Tsugumu what you asked of me? "Little details like mortal life (if there was one), sacred things, practices of the monks and so forth would give a much better idea of what "secrets" means in this particular context."

I think we really do understanding well. Crab hands can be seen as trying to understand every weapon style at least supperficially. Sage can be seeking understanding on as wide a range of topics as we can.

Similarlly, our rings focus on fire, if we were focused on secrets would we not have a focus on Awarness and Perception? Allowing us to better ferret out secrets? Our main ring is Inteligence, the one that leads towards understanding. Agility to adapt to new understanding of situations as they develop. It just seems right to me.

EDIT: Anyone know is that link is frowned upon on this board due to copyright concerns? Should I have not put it up?

Click to shrink...

No, I can't provide that. That's the point. It sounded like you had more information than just what was available on the wiki (which is not much), and I was prepared to be convinced by it if you did. Given that you don't, all we really have to work on is our personal understanding of the words involved, and what a Fortune of each might entail. It's entirely possible that the Fortune of Understanding isn't so much about sages as about understanding between people and other fuzzy stuff. We're not opposed to that, certainly, but it's not so much of a focus.

Sure, there's a tiny order of esoteric monks devoted to the Fortune of Secrets who deal in the deepest, darkest secrets and do awesome monkly things with respect to them. Great. You were trying to use that as an argument that Tsugumu *wouldn't* be interested in secrets of the more normal, banal levels of intensity though, and that's just not supported by the data available at that source.

After looking my copy of Emerald Empire over, I think Saibankan's the way to go. He's not only the founder of the Magistrates, but also the Fortune that Scorpions pray to to avoid detection from the law.

Click to shrink...

Sure... but that has him worshipping the obvious Fortune that he was raised in. Also, "detection from the law" isn't his problem so much as not being found out in other ways. It's not the illegality of his actions that he's worried about (mostly). I agree that Saibankan should be one of a relatively small number that he worships regularly (and have said as much) but I don't think that actually going solo-Saibankan really fits with the history we've given him thus far. He needs something else to differentiate himself from his family.