In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

You know, I really don't understand Samurai culture. Like, apparently somehow that was a bonding exercise, rather than "Lion Matsu cheats using magical artifacts and slams a sword through someone's body."

I wouldn't see it as a method of learning to respect each other, or something like that.
 
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You know, I really don't understand Samurai culture. Like, apparently somehow that was a bonding exercise, rather than "Lion Matsu cheats using magical artifacts and slams a sword through someone's body."

I wouldn't see it as a method of learning to respect each other, or something like that.

No, no. That's Ketsui showing how much she respects Kimiko, she put on her good armor to fight her in. It's more or less the Proud Warrior Race Honor Stronk equivalent of putting on your dress clothes and breaking out the fine china when someone comes over for dinner.

As far as actions for the next four days...I think we'd be better served to focus on one or two groups and devote all our efforts to them instead of running Naoto ragged trying to make nice with the Crab, Unicorn, Otomo, Phoenix, and Crane all at once.

I agree that we need to prioritize the Crane Question, but I'm not sure that four days of all Crane interactions, all the time is the way to do that. I mean, they're the other intrigue and political chicanery focused Clan and they have Couriers. We need another angle.

Cultivating the Matsu servants and menials is probably the way to go there, I doubt any of them would be willing to give us any juicy info on the Lions even if we say pretty please, but telling us who the Crane have been talking to and what they're doing all day is probably feasible.
 
You know, I really don't understand Samurai culture. Like, apparently somehow that was a bonding exercise, rather than "Lion Matsu cheats using magical artifacts and slams a sword through someone's body."

I wouldn't see it as a method of learning to respect each other, or something like that.
Matsu Ketsui gave her tremendous respect just by putting the thing on. Being taken that seriously by someone of that caliber is already a significant boost to her reputation/Glory/whatever - and that's really what everyone was out there fighting for. As far as I'm aware, the championship didn't have an official prize. It was just bragging rights. Bayushi Kimiko won *plenty* in that last bout. Also, she got to completely cut loose and go all out against someone who didn't immediately fall over. Both of them did - and for people like them, that's a somewhat rare and precious thing.
 
In regards to what to do with our four days; how would we actually go and learn about the local Matsu magistrates? Are we completely reliant on being introduced to them via someone else, or could we try to seek them out on our own initiative?
Even if we'd only get to know one, that might be something we could give to Pale Oak already; would make me feel better than just constantly asking for things from him.

Romance-wise, I'll reiterate that I have absolutely no interest in pursuing Ketsui, and frankly find the whole idea a waste of time that we could better spend elsewhere.
 
Romance-wise, I'll reiterate that I have absolutely no interest in pursuing Ketsui, and frankly find the whole idea a waste of time that we could better spend elsewhere.

For what it's worth, essentially everythign we might do for right now with respect to pursuing Ketsui *also* serves our primary objective of keeping the Matsu happy with us, and thereby reducing friction through the pass. I'm personally more amused about the Ketsui-shipping than anything else. I throw in the "If you ship Matsu Ketsui" bits in order to keep eyes on our long-term goals (which also help with said seduction technique) in order to keep from having to deal with an organized and waifu-motivated group of voters constantly voting to throw all of our exp into combat stats and hang around the Matsu all the time (not actually useful for achieving *anyone's* goals).

Basically, as long as we stay smart about it, it *won't* be wasting time.
 
For what it's worth, essentially everythign we might do for right now with respect to pursuing Ketsui *also* serves our primary objective of keeping the Matsu happy with us, and thereby reducing friction through the pass. I'm personally more amused about the Ketsui-shipping than anything else. I throw in the "If you ship Matsu Ketsui" bits in order to keep eyes on our long-term goals (which also help with said seduction technique) in order to keep from having to deal with an organized and waifu-motivated group of voters constantly voting to throw all of our exp into combat stats and hang around the Matsu all the time (not actually useful for achieving *anyone's* goals)
Basically, this.

Also, Kimiko is already waaay ahead of us on the whole "Git gud at sword, be homies with the Matsu", and showing no signs of slowing down. Therefore, to breach the fortress of Ketsui's heart Naoto's only hope of success lies in the classic Scorpion approach, indirectly maneuvering towards his goal using cunning and deception, to accomplish with wits and a flexible sense of ethics what could not be done with a thousand swords!

In this case, said indirect approqch begins with solving the Crane enigma.
 
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[x] Reflexes 3.
[x] Sirocco plan for the next days.

This way we can pretend we actually have Reflexes 4 when engaging with the majority of our opponents, and I think our fight with Ginwei has shown us the importance of striking first when possible.
 
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I would like to focus on the Crane, pale oak, servants and a freebie to be decided after.

But the order should be

Day one:
Pale Oak and the Magistrates
Day two
the servants and the Ikoma or the servants and the Magistrates take two
Day three
The Crane
Day four
To be decided, as events could happen that would make some contact better than others.

For the first two days, it would be best if we gather information or build a network that could give that to us.

On the third day we would get back to the Crane...

On our forth day we should look for the Otomo, the Crab or the Phoenix... but it would depend .
 
So... the magistrates are kind of a funny one. Various paths to the magistrates...
- We could ask Ikoma-sama. This is a poor choice, because we don't really want to be all that heavily connected to Ikoma-sama. On top of that, we don't want to ask him for things, unless it's things directly in support of our searches (which this wouldn't be).
- We could ask Bayushi Kimiko to ask Matsu Ketsui to have one of her underlings introduce us. It would be a minimal request for her, but... I dunno. I feel like we don't want to draw from that well unless we absolutely have to. For one thing, it might in some way diminish the purity of their relationship.
- We could ask the Honorable Progeny. This is doable, but would require actually encountering the Honorable Progeny again. This would be one of the reasons to be seen out there practicing on the sparring fields.
- We could strike up an acquaintanceship with Some Random Lion. This is actually very similar to the Honorable Progeny plan, down to the part where we'd set it off by going out for swording practice and letting them approach us.
- We could approach the magistrates on our own, without an introduction. This has... potentially troublesome implications. I'd want to roll etiquette for it. I *suspect* that it's the sort of thing that we could smooth over easily with a small gift - approaching essentially as a supplicant on behalf of our merchant types. Might be worth it, but it would require knowing enough about one of the magistrates to come up with an appropriate gift - and to pick the right magistrate.

Hmmm.... perhaps something like the following...
[] General actions (habits to cultivate across all days)
-[] Take to spending an hour a day practicing in the practice yards. You are a bushi, and it is well to keep your skills sharp regardless. Pick a time when not *every* Matsu is out there, and one when the standard business of the court is unlikely. Perhaps a short while prior to the evening meal. You've started to develop a reputation as an at least passable swordsman. You may as well sustain it. Also, it's not like Matsu rep is a bad thing, and giving others a predictable time when they might approach you is likely worthwhile.
-[] Approach one of the servants about the Magistrates - just trying to find out who one might talk with among the magistrates, where to find them, how to approach them, and so forth. If the one you've found doesn't know, ask who might, and then go speak with that person. Make a point of being respectful and kind throughout, and appreciative when answered - even inquiring after their health or the equivalent if you can fit it in. If/when appropriate, acknowledge it as a matter of Clan business of no particular urgency. If one of them does let slip some personal issue that you can solve trivially, so much the better. See if you can come up with a few other matters of like nature that you can ask about as the days pass - nothing that their Lords would not wish you to know, but little things that you can use to demonstrate that you are not a monster.
[] Specific actions:
-[] Talk to Pale Oak. Get what info he has on those tracking resources on the Lion side. If it's solid, great. If it's not, figure out how much more time he'll need. Let him know that you need to know about the comparative value of what the Crab have to trade and what we have to trade - you'll be talking with a Yasuki, and need to be well-armed. Make sure to leave an opening for and accept any advice or requests he might have on the topic.
-[] Approach Daidoji-san in court, early on. Ask if he might be willing to play go with you once more. Play casually. Use this as an opportunity to suss him out, see how he might feel (subtly and respectfully) about you and Doji Mariko (I'm sure that Rokugan has some moral equivalent to "I think she's hot, but I don't want to get all up in your business if you were there first"). See if you can cultivate more of a connection with the man and perhaps pick out a few of his opinions on current events, etc. If you win, great. If you lose, don't lose by much. Try not to dominate him too badly.
-[] Once we get an in with the magistrates (either from picking up enough to know who to talk to and how to approach them or by being approached by an appropriate Lion), go talk with the magistrates. Again, be polite, be friendly, be helpful, and be pretty straightfoward about why you're here - you want to make sure that there are no regrettable incidents, and that means being respectful of the opinions and priorities of the magistrates, and that requires knowing what those opinions and priorities *are*. It should be an easy enough sell.
-[] Once you're done with that, get the information to Pale Oak, possibly while exchanging information about other things.
-[] Spend at least some time with Doji Mariko. Probably want to visit her about twice during this process. Next time, give her at least a few teaching games of Go. Do what you can to assist her in acquiring skill. Tune level of flirting a bit based on the feedback you got from Daidoji-san.
-[] Once you have the information from Pale Oak, visit Otomo-sama. Give him the information you've acquired, express respectfulness and continued willingness to assist in any way you can manage, try to pick out a bit more about his opinons on things and/or useful stuff you could be doing for him.

As a general vague plan, I think that *pretty* much fills four days, given a bit of luck. It gets back to Otomo-sama pretty quickly, it keeps us working on the Crane delegation and on the help, it puts a bit of work into maintaining our position with the Lion, and it has a good shot one way or the other of handling the Magistrate thing. It's a bit incomplete, in that it doesn't set us up particularly well to romance anyone not named Doji Mariko, and has no fallback plan if that would horribly offend Daidoji-san. It also puts off talking with the Crab until later, and doesn't do anything with respect to the Phoenix. For the Crab, i think that works. For the Phoenix... it saddens me, but honestly she's just not that useful.

Given the degree of uncertainty here, I'm thinking we should try to be voting one day at a time. Day 1 would then be something like
- Start talking with the servants
- Start practicing with your katana on a daily basis (and interacting with whoever approaches)
- Touch base with Pale Oak - swap info
- Go with Daidoji-san while attending court
- Otomo-sama if you have that data
-- if not, Magistrates if you have that data
--- if not, Something will probably come up. Do that thing.
---- if not, poetry practice?

Of course, at this point, I'm sort of grasping as to how to put these together. @Maugan Ra, I'd be happy for feedback - especially on how you'd want us to handle the "first we want to figure out things, and then make plans based on those things" issue.

Feedback eagerly welcomed. I think I'm doing better, but I don't want to go full steam into a wall again, so I'm depending on you all to keep an eye open for mistakes, particularly in the overly long posts like this one.
 
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How dangerous do we think the Ginwei situation is right now and how often do we actually get the opportunity to spend our XP?

If I recall correctly the general opinion was that his survival makes combat purchases notably more urgent, so I'm at least a bit wary about starting a predictable and easily noticed routine placing us at an easily accessible location chosen exactly so there are as few random bystanders present as possible.
Unless we can get Reflexes 3 basically whenever or people think he's at the very least going to stew on his anger or busy being chewed out by his superior, there seems to be merit to either get Reflexes 3 immediately or to make it deliberately difficult for him to force a confrontation as long as we are still considering what other more urgent purchases there are to make.
 
@Sirrocco, I think you should tone down the flirting and courting a little,.

We have 4 days to plant the seed for our future actions, and the next event is the courting event, let's llnot close any doors until them.

Another topic, would be to look for more information on what the mine produced and, with it, get some more information on the behavior of the Yasuki.
 
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How dangerous do we think the Ginwei situation is right now and how often do we actually get the opportunity to spend our XP?

If I recall correctly the general opinion was that his survival makes combat purchases notably more urgent, so I'm at least a bit wary about starting a predictable and easily noticed routine placing us at an easily accessible location chosen exactly so there are as few random bystanders present as possible.
Unless we can get Reflexes 3 basically whenever or people think he's at the very least going to stew on his anger or busy being chewed out by his superior, there seems to be merit to either get Reflexes 3 immediately or to make it deliberately difficult for him to force a confrontation as long as we are still considering what other more urgent purchases there are to make.
I don't think he's likely to attack us the very next day. I'm pretty sure we'll at least have enough time to determine what is to become of him. We can spend XP any time it doesn't matter. If we aren't in an immediate situation, we can spend XP.
 
@Sirrocco, I think you should tone down the flirting and courting a little,.

We have 4 days to plant the seed for our future actions, and the next event is the courting event, let's llnot close any doors until them.

Another topic, would be to look for more information on what the mine produced and, with it, get some more information on the beglgavoour of the Yasuki.
The "info on what the mine produced" was what I was suggesting we ask Pale Oak for - the general data on what they have to offer, and what we have to offer. Admittedly, the specifics about that one mine might also matter - we can add that to the request as well.

So... the courting event is an interesting choice strategically. We can either decide to pursue or be pursued. If we want to pursue, then we need to know who we're going after when we walk in the door (and turn the others down gently). If we want to be pursued, then we want to leave things open and generally flirt around. Of course, that might lead to not hooking up with anyone. It's an interesting tactical choice, and not one I'd considered. Anyone have thoughts?

I'm not convinced it's going too flirt-heavy, assuming we're going for the "pursue Doji Mariko" option. We'd be seeing her about every other day, on the lead-up to the moral equivalent of Valentine's day. I wouldn't call that excessive. Of course, if that's *not* going to be our intent, then we'll want to dial it back a bit - probably back to a single meeting, and a bit less flirty.
 
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The "info on what the mine produced" was what I was suggesting we ask Pale Oak for - the general data on what they have to offer, and what we have to offer. Admittedly, the specifics about that one mine might also matter - we can add that to the request as well.

I was also thinking in looking in the library for more general information.
So... the courting event is an interesting choice strategically. We can either decide to pursue or be pursued. If we want to pursue, then we need to know who we're going after when we walk in the door (and turn the others down gently). If we want to be pursued, then we want to leave things open and generally flirt around.

I'm not convinced it's going too flirt-heavy, assuming we're going for the "pursue Doji Mariko" option. We'd be seeing her about every other day, on the lead-up to the moral equivalent of Valentine's day. I wouldn't call that excessive.

The problem is that the plan would most probably lock us in Doji Mariko path, before we had a chance to see the competition (not that she is not a good catch, it is just that she may die at the end... and we could lose a lot of our investment in her).
 
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I was also thinking in looking in the library for more general information.


The problem is that the plan would most probably lock us in Doji Mariko path, before we had a chance to see the competition (not that she is not a good catch, it is just that she may die at the end... and we could lose a lot of our investment in her)
*not wanting to save the doomed Crane beauty from her inevitable fate as her dark and brooding samurai lover*

It's like you don't read romance novels for lonely middle-aged women. :V
 
*not wanting to save the doomed Crane beauty from her inevitable fate as her dark and brooding samurai lover*

It's like you don't read romance novels for lonely middle-aged women. :V

No no, we need to court her, try to save her, and then fail in a tragic yet honorable manner that causes Naoto to become even more dark, brooding and angsty, ideally picking up a sexy looking facial scar along the way.

This will make us much more attractive as a potential husband for Ketsui. :V
 
The problem is that the plan would most probably lock us in Doji Mariko path, before we had a chance to see the competition (not that she is not a good catch, it is just that she may die at the end... and we could lose a lot of our investment in her).
Actually, you have it entirely backwards. We're courting her explicitly as part of a plan that may *cause* her death. We're Scorpion. If it weren't for having to investigate the Crane, I would absolutely have been looking at the others. This roance is the sort that's likely to terminate by the end of Winter Court anyway.

Also, we pretty much have seen the rest of the plausible competition. We've met the Doji, the Yasuki, and the Asako. We have some *basic* idea of who they are, and of what spending time with each of them is likely to be like. Certainly, there are arguments to be made for each of the others, but to my eyes, the chance of getting into Doji Mariko's confidence is more valuable than what the other two have to offer... even if the charming loremistress is the one who fits us personally the best.
 
The problem is that the plan would most probably lock us in Doji Mariko path, before we had a chance to see the competition (not that she is not a good catch, it is just that she may die at the end... and we could lose a lot of our investment in her).
As far as I understood it, the actual problem here is more that Sirrocco's proposed plan simply doesn't care that much about the "route lock" or sees it as something fundamentally bad and to be avoided until the last minute.

Sure, there is a legitimate case to be made about how there is only one person we can romantically pursue during this Winter Court and that missing out on a romance you might have enjoyed (a lot?) more just because you didn't want to "shop around" a bit would be a shame, but there is also to consider that this very likely isn't going to last past the Winter Court and that this not really the kind of thing where you should refrain from literally any decision until every single fact about all the candidates is in.

Ultimately we have to acknowledge that figuring out the Crane secret is going to be a pretty big deal for us here and getting romantically involved with Mariko is liable to help with that. So, given that she is also, as you said, a "good catch", as far as I see it this is the point where you need arguments against actually pursuing her at all instead of the general desire to see the other options.

"I don't think it would really help with the investigations that much, because..." could work to convince others to hold off, assuming there is enough reasoning to back it up. "I don't really want an ulterior motive to be involved" would be a bit subjective (and in my eyes something a Scorpion player simply has to deal with) but still a valid complaint. And even a simple "I just don't like her" would be enough justification for one's own vote.
But "I want to see (more of) the other potential waifus first" just doesn't cut it in my eyes because it gives the waifu thing way more importance than I think it should have.

After all, waifuing is neither part of our major IC goals nor what the quest itself is about.
We have, as Sirrocco said, some general info about the other likely options, have a concrete, duty related reason to pick this one over the others and have the opportunity to get started on this early enough to milk the Festival of the River of Stars for all we possibly can. This is the point where we should be posting our answers to "Mariko? Y/N" and attach a reasoning instead of just delaying the decision.

For my part, I'm more than happy to "lock us into her route" both to kill all waifu wars for the rest of the Winter Court and to take as much advantage of her as we can.
And, if we're really lucky we'll even get to betray her for the sake of our Clan, and in doing so prove our loyalty enough that the next arc won't consist of being ordered to kill puppies and kittens just to see if we would. :p
 
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