In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

From in character standpoint, I like the idea that Naoto starts to put a little bit more effort into his swording things considering how the Display of Steel turned out. It's one thing to know intellectually that you're a beginner swordsman, but it's another to have a giant man wearing more armor than the guard tower they stuck Ginwei on match your speed, especially with you being a graduate of the Speedy Bastards school of swordsmanship and him being a giant wearing more armor than a guard tower.

And getting a ringside seat for Ketsui vs Kimiko after that, seeing the kind of heights swordsmanship can reach...all in all I'd imagine for Naoto, this tournament was something akin to being a mountain climber who thinks they're a passable ways up the mountain, oh, not near the top, no, but a decent ways up there, and then the clouds blow back and you can see just where the top of the mountain is in relation to you, and you realize that you're still waaay down there at the bottom of the slope.
 
Perhaps it doesn't have any non-combat uses beyond raising our Insight, but like... the point is that we're there are good odds of him returning. Were we to face him again--and by all rights, we will, if not RARGH I AM TAINTED AND SHALL DRAG YOU EVIL SCORPION DOWN WITH ME--without the higher Reflexes (and Kenjutsu) then we stand no chance by all rights.

I don't know about you but I don't like the idea of being essentially useless in this scenario, or in any future combat situations.
 
Perhaps it doesn't have any non-combat uses beyond raising our Insight...

I don't know about that, it is the ability to react quickly to sudden stimuli in general, not just in combat. So, for example, just a purely hypothetical what if...we could be halfway out Doji Mariko's window as soon as we hear Daidoji Chen's footsteps coming down the hall. :V
 
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My own argument is I don't think he's in some death spiral of 'and now I shall become the darkness and destroy the last shreds of my honor to kill you', and so I think Reflexes 3 will be wasted, unless it has some non-combat use. I mean, there are worse things to do than wasting 12 XP at a time where we need to upgrade our social stats and investigation for the sort of stuff that Sirroco's write-in covers.

Probably, but give me a moment to think of them.
Right. You think that the probability is so small that it can be safely ignored. Many of us do not agree.

He's a Lion. He was planning to kill us at the tournament - in a tournament where the rules made it explicitly clear that people weren't supposed to die. He's a Lion who has once already made a conscious choice to act dishonorably (in front of everyone in his world that matters) in order to kill us, and one who's honor was corroded by that act, making it easier for him to act dishonorably again. He is clearly driven by rage, and we have hurt him and shamed him multiple times. He last tried to kill us while stone cold sober, days after the initial insult, and he has at least some access to sake. These are serious facts, and need to be taken seriously.

Now, there's other stuff at work as well. His superiors have seen what we have seen, and they have no desire to have him shaming them. They'll be taking steps. He might be able to recover himself, removed from our presence. He could pull himself out of the honor death-spiral just from his own shame and insight... but the reason we think that he's in an honor death-spiral now is because that's what he was in the last time we saw him.

It may or may not happen - but the chance of it happening is at least high enough that we ought to consider it in our planning.
 
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I don't know about that, it is the ability to react quickly to sudden stimuli in general, not just in combat. So, for example, just a purely hypothetical what if...we could be halfway out Mariko's window as soon as we hear Chen's footsteps coming down the hall. :V
Well, yes, but Trait Rolls aren't especially common hence my silly, sweeping overgeneralization:p
e- Or Ring Rolls! Those are a thing too but I highly doubt we'll ever have to make one!
 
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Something else to consider is that Ginwei might not be the only Matsu who has issue with us for some reason or another. They're prickly like that.

Like Wade said, it fits characterization for Naoto to feel the need to improve his abilities in combat for various reasons. This has been a bit of an eye opening experience for our young Scorpion, and there will be more moments to improve other skills as the days go by. Add to that the Insight gain making us very close to Insight 2 and our next Technique, and I think it's a pretty worthwhile investment.

[X] Reflexes 3
 
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I'm not that sure he's going to show up immediately myself, but as others said I think him trying something sooner or later is not something we can afford to discount.

I mean, he reacted to the first incident by planning to murder us in a match to third blood that specifically forbade killing and with enough healing ready that he would have probably had to pull off "I really didn't try to literally cut him into two pieces!" to get away with it.
That's a lot worse than I expected, personally. Instead of aiming to humiliate the fuck out of us in front of the entire court, he went with a premeditated murder attempt that was either based on some almost delusional estimations of his chances to get away with it easily or acceptance of further dishonour as long as he got his satisfaction.

And now we did pretty much the same to him as in the first incident only in front of his daimyo instead of his daimyo's son, in front of the entire court instead of in front of his squad and by also proving ourselves the greater warrior instead of only conducting ourselves more honorably. Sure, a single incident isn't much of a sample size, but assuming he will calm himself down on his own is actively dangerous to our survival.
And, while he might also not escalate things further, if someone else calms him down, those in a position to talk some sense into him could just be too pissed at him for anything constructive and, even if they aren't, they could be unaware that they're dealing with a premeditated murder attempt instead of someone who to all appearances lost his self-control in the heat of battle.
And, since he was already planning to murder us, the only real direction of escalation is either in his delusion about what he can get away with or in his willingness to accept dishonor to kill us.

So, if he is going to come after us sooner or later and if he will do so even more incompently and dishonorably, there is a very real chance that we will have little to no real opportunity to estimate an exact timing before it's kill or be killed and there is at least a possibility that he will come at us as soon as he is physically able.
There is perhaps a case to be made for waiting with the purchase until he at least isn't on watchtower duty anymore and therefor has more opportunity to try to shank us, but we don't know when that will be the case either and, while the random Lion samurai is perfectly willing to tell us about him now, inquiries about our opponent during the tournament will kind of stop being inconspicious once it's no longer immediately after the tournament. And even if we can come up with an explanation, if word about our inquiries gest back to him, that might just be exactly what sets him off.

Overall, it seems a lot more safe to just get Reflexes 3 now and be confident that, whenever he does shows up, we are that much less likely to get shanked.
 
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I will also hereby reiterate my previous request regarding your votes - if you change your vote, please go back and put a strike or something through the earlier post to make it sufficiently clear that it is no longer valid. I'm working without the benefit of an automated vote counter here, so anything which helps me avoid getting further confused would be great.
 
[X] Reflexes 3

Yeah, I'd rather be safe on this front, since there wouldn't a sorry if we gambled wrong. Because we would be dead.
 
You could probably get away with asking someone to run it for you, if you like and are comfortable with the idea.
 
Honestly? If I thought we could get away with it I'd vote to assassinate Ginwei. A scorpion should never leave a threat at his back, and even if he never attacks us again he is a definite voice against us in the lion court.

We ARE the dishonorable bastards after all.

In fact, I'm going to want to do that before the winter court is over. Make sure that Ginwei is never a threat to us again, one way or another.

Makes for am interesting challenge, to leave the winter court smelling of roses, and with all of our enemies dead.
 
That's not our call to make, though, unless our superiors are ambivalent enough to delegate the choice to us (hint: they wouldn't, as far as I can see). I mean, yeah... we could go and assassinate him at some point presuming we have the Skills.

It'd also just be straight murder because we did it without official sanction.
 
@Maugan Ra Here's a tally where I just combined similar votes.

Vote Tally : In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest) | Page 66 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.2.0

[X] Increase Reflexes to 3
No. of Votes: 13

[X] Save XP
No. of Votes: 6


Total No. of Voters: 19
 
I will also hereby reiterate my previous request regarding your votes - if you change your vote, please go back and put a strike or something through the earlier post to make it sufficiently clear that it is no longer valid. I'm working without the benefit of an automated vote counter here, so anything which helps me avoid getting further confused would be great.
Given that, I strongly encourage you to ask others to do your tallying for you. It's just not worth it to burn QM resources on tallying.

Mind you, I'll happily go back and find my previous posts and fix them, but I *still* think you should be getting others to do the tallying.

Could I ask for an answer WRT conditional plans? Do you want long rambling things with a lot of "ifs" and "whens" or just running it something like a day at a time?
 
Honestly? If I thought we could get away with it I'd vote to assassinate Ginwei. A scorpion should never leave a threat at his back, and even if he never attacks us again he is a definite voice against us in the lion court.

We ARE the dishonorable bastards after all.

In fact, I'm going to want to do that before the winter court is over. Make sure that Ginwei is never a threat to us again, one way or another.

Makes for am interesting challenge, to leave the winter court smelling of roses, and with all of our enemies dead.
If we did want to kill Matsu Ginwei (and I do, just not right now) manipulate him into trying to kill us in some dishonourable manner (with witnesses) and kill him in self defence (or have him captured).

It would get him out of the way, see the Lion making concessions (in private) in apology and potentially maintain our reputation as an honourable Scorpion (even if we are just a pragmatic one).

In fact I see the Perceived Honour merit in our future (not sure on name but each rank of merit makes attempts to perceive your honour as a rank higher).
 
If he does something to dishonor himself without killing us, we might be able to pull that sepuku trick where we dishonor him enough that he has to commit suicide to purge his dishonor. Obviously this would need to be public though, and would require him to not just try and kill us.
 
If he does something to dishonor himself without killing us, we might be able to pull that sepuku trick where we dishonor him enough that he has to commit suicide to purge his dishonor. Obviously this would need to be public though, and would require him to not just try and kill us.

That rather depends on whether we survive his second attempt. Rokugani justice is not terribly sophisticated unless you're a Kitsuki, and our word against his may be enough even for a "private" attempted killing, given the way we're racking up honor points and he's shedding them.
 
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The next scheduled event is the Festival of the River of Stars, on the 9th Day of the Boar. You have four full days between then and now, and must decide what to do with them.

Each day can be assigned to interacting with a specific NPC, trying to accomplish some particular goal or pursuing some matter of interest. Multiple days can be dedicated to any of these topics. Some will be worth a full update or more, others can be summarized easily depending on your choices.

How do you spend the next four days?
- [ ] Write in
Guys, no one has voted on the second half of the vote yet. We should probably hop to it if we want an update.
 
Hmmm.... perhaps something like the following...
[] General actions (habits to cultivate across all days)
-[] Take to spending an hour a day practicing in the practice yards. You are a bushi, and it is well to keep your skills sharp regardless. Pick a time when not *every* Matsu is out there, and one when the standard business of the court is unlikely. Perhaps a short while prior to the evening meal. You've started to develop a reputation as an at least passable swordsman. You may as well sustain it. Also, it's not like Matsu rep is a bad thing, and giving others a predictable time when they might approach you is likely worthwhile.
-[] Approach one of the servants about the Magistrates - just trying to find out who one might talk with among the magistrates, where to find them, how to approach them, and so forth. If the one you've found doesn't know, ask who might, and then go speak with that person. Make a point of being respectful and kind throughout, and appreciative when answered - even inquiring after their health or the equivalent if you can fit it in. If/when appropriate, acknowledge it as a matter of Clan business of no particular urgency. If one of them does let slip some personal issue that you can solve trivially, so much the better. See if you can come up with a few other matters of like nature that you can ask about as the days pass - nothing that their Lords would not wish you to know, but little things that you can use to demonstrate that you are not a monster.
[] Specific actions:
-[] Talk to Pale Oak. Get what info he has on those tracking resources on the Lion side. If it's solid, great. If it's not, figure out how much more time he'll need. Let him know that you need to know about the comparative value of what the Crab have to trade and what we have to trade - you'll be talking with a Yasuki, and need to be well-armed. Make sure to leave an opening for and accept any advice or requests he might have on the topic.
-[] Approach Daidoji-san in court, early on. Ask if he might be willing to play go with you once more. Play casually. Use this as an opportunity to suss him out, see how he might feel (subtly and respectfully) about you and Doji Mariko (I'm sure that Rokugan has some moral equivalent to "I think she's hot, but I don't want to get all up in your business if you were there first"). See if you can cultivate more of a connection with the man and perhaps pick out a few of his opinions on current events, etc. If you win, great. If you lose, don't lose by much. Try not to dominate him too badly.
-[] Once we get an in with the magistrates (either from picking up enough to know who to talk to and how to approach them or by being approached by an appropriate Lion), go talk with the magistrates. Again, be polite, be friendly, be helpful, and be pretty straightfoward about why you're here - you want to make sure that there are no regrettable incidents, and that means being respectful of the opinions and priorities of the magistrates, and that requires knowing what those opinions and priorities *are*. It should be an easy enough sell.
-[] Once you're done with that, get the information to Pale Oak, possibly while exchanging information about other things.
-[] Spend at least some time with Doji Mariko. Probably want to visit her about twice during this process. Next time, give her at least a few teaching games of Go. Do what you can to assist her in acquiring skill. Tune level of flirting a bit based on the feedback you got from Daidoji-san.
-[] Once you have the information from Pale Oak, visit Otomo-sama. Give him the information you've acquired, express respectfulness and continued willingness to assist in any way you can manage, try to pick out a bit more about his opinons on things and/or useful stuff you could be doing for him.

As a general vague plan, I think that *pretty* much fills four days, given a bit of luck. It gets back to Otomo-sama pretty quickly, it keeps us working on the Crane delegation and on the help, it puts a bit of work into maintaining our position with the Lion, and it has a good shot one way or the other of handling the Magistrate thing. It's a bit incomplete, in that it doesn't set us up particularly well to romance anyone not named Doji Mariko, and has no fallback plan if that would horribly offend Daidoji-san. It also puts off talking with the Crab until later, and doesn't do anything with respect to the Phoenix. For the Crab, i think that works. For the Phoenix... it saddens me, but honestly she's just not that useful.

Given the degree of uncertainty here, I'm thinking we should try to be voting one day at a time. Day 1 would then be something like
- Start talking with the servants
- Start practicing with your katana on a daily basis (and interacting with whoever approaches)
- Touch base with Pale Oak - swap info
- Go with Daidoji-san while attending court
- Otomo-sama if you have that data
-- if not, Magistrates if you have that data
--- if not, Something will probably come up. Do that thing.
---- if not, poetry practice?

This seems to be the general idea that people are going for thus far. I can work all of the intended Day 1 actions into an update, potentially two. Unless anyone has a detailed alternative plan they'd like to suggest?

Of course, at this point, I'm sort of grasping as to how to put these together. @Maugan Ra, I'd be happy for feedback - especially on how you'd want us to handle the "first we want to figure out things, and then make plans based on those things" issue.

Generally, I'm OK with plans like this, which have a single primary point of focus (visiting Otomo Kairyu) and a number of supporting actions aimed at gathering appropriate information to make your choices.

In the future, I'm likely to lean towards restricting your choices to one major activity per day. This is more of a metagame decision than anything else, I will admit, aimed at helping me keep track of everything and keeping us progressing through the 3/4 months of Winter Court at a decent pace.
 
This seems to be the general idea that people are going for thus far. I can work all of the intended Day 1 actions into an update, potentially two. Unless anyone has a detailed alternative plan they'd like to suggest?

Generally, I'm OK with plans like this, which have a single primary point of focus (visiting Otomo Kairyu) and a number of supporting actions aimed at gathering appropriate information to make your choices.

In the future, I'm likely to lean towards restricting your choices to one major activity per day. This is more of a metagame decision than anything else, I will admit, aimed at helping me keep track of everything and keeping us progressing through the 3/4 months of Winter Court at a decent pace.
It seems more like there's three main focuses; Otomo Kairyu on one hand, with supporting actions (ie, meeting Pale Oak), starting to gather information on the local Lion Magistrates (also with supporting action(s)), and spending time with Mariko (likewise with supporting action, ie feeling out Chen how he or the other Crane feel about her, so we don't step onto any toes).

Though, if the plans always end up being so extensive (such as the write-up for training with the sword, or trying to befriend the servants), maybe make such longer-term actions somewhat automatic? Ie, give a broad directive such as befriending the servants in order to make information gathering easier, and Naoto will pursue that whenever a chance presents itself, without requiring us to write it up all the time? Should make everyone's lives a bit easier.
 
For the reasons stated above, I'm going with this.

[x] Reflexes 3.
[x] Sirocco plan for the next days.

Do keep in mind that Ginwei wasn't the only one there. There were also his squad and I'm pretty sure that as we get more and more glory there will be also more people wanting us out of the way, for various reasons. Even if we're Scorpion and people has a perception of us being dishonorable bastards, were playing the exception to the rule. Let's not throw that away like a house of cards getting swiped by the wind because we wanted to silence Ginwei.

If he's still going to get in our way, he's always welcomed to try. :D
 
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