In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

Ah but does it not then go on to say "A living clown is amusingly sad."?
Sadly, this guy is not truly a clown. He really is a more powerful combatant than we are - and if things had gone differently (like, say, if he'd somehow won the initiative roll) we could very easily be dead now - or trying to figure out how to avoid becoming dead without utterly shaming ourselves.
 
To be absolutely clear here: the Matsu specialize in one thing and that thing is "hitting people so hard they go esplodey"; Ginwei was, is no exception to this rule. The only reason we won was because we played smarter. The idiot should have just worn Light Armor and tried his very hardest to hit us with as much power as humanly possible but instead he tried to play it a little safer--from his point of view likely smarter--by slightly gimping his Attack roll to make up for his piddly ATN.

Which is stupid because with his shitty Reflexes 2 that means he still has precisely jack and shit.

I'm also especially amused because my sleep deprived frantic mathramblings were also way off base because I didn't sit down and place everything out slowly beforehand but them's the breaks I guess.

More pertinently, what, exactly, have we keyed out as the 'big things' to spend next our xp on after Reflexes 3? I certainly think that raising Kenjutsu to 3 is something we should do if only because it's more or less the baseline functionality with a sword you'd expect from any half-decent Bushi; it's just really bad to not have it. I've mentioned this a few times before but, even though Agility (and thusly Fire) 4 is a luxury buy and most certainly not coming before Perception 3 it would also go a long way towards playing up both halves of the warrior-scholar thing we've got going on.
 
[X] Make a strike that draws the minimum amount of blood necessary concluding the duel with as much respect (for the court/process not the enemy) as possible.
 
If this guy dies? I don't think we even need reflexes 3. I think that Awareness 4 and Intelligence 5 are much higher priorities. I think perception 3 and investigation 3 are higher priorities. If this guy lives, I'm willing to accept that reflexes 3 and kenjutsu 3 are pretty important to our medium-term survival, and thus worth investing in, but otherwise, I'd let them go. Beyond that, Fire itself doesn't get us but so much, and reflexes does more for our survival than agility - once the exp pendulum swings back around to combat ability, I'd go reflexes 4 before I went agility 4.

The question is what threats will we face, and what opportunities will we want to take advantage of. This is the one kenjutsu tournament there is on the schedule. We don't get another opportunity to show off our skills at this level. As far as I can see, that means that after this, the only predictable opportunities our sword skill is likely to open up are ones for getting in good with the Matsu - and we don't have any real need to get in better with the Matsu than we already are. Bayushi Kimiko has the Matsu covered - and we're giving her plenty of support right now, which is great, but we really don't need to swing any further in that direction. Threats are an issue, and they're why I say that if this guy lives, then investment there will be important, but if he's dead, we're probably not going to run into much of a kenjutsu threat, either. Again, this is a court game. Combat is going to be de-emphasized, unless we personally emphasize it, which we shouldn't.

Iajutsu is pretty much no opportunity and all threat (we're not good enough at it to work it as opportunity). Fortunately, the threat should be pretty end-weighted, pretty predictable, and avoidable with court skills.

Kyujutsu we can safely opt out of, and probably should.

...and that's it for the entire martial side of the character sheet... while investments in Perception, Intelligence, Awareness, and various support skills have all *sorts* of opportunities to exploit all over Court (and at least a few threats to avoid).

Perhaps I am confused. I hear various forms of "because being an effective Bushi is important" (not just recently - other conversations on exp expenditure as well). This is generally being used with an implied statement that we're not good enough at being a bushi yet, leading to the conclusion that we need to improve our combat abilities. What it doesn't have is a whole lot of explanation as to why it's important, or what situations we're likely to get into that would make it important. There's just the assertion that it is.

I believe that the argument from propriety is incorrect (at least insomuch as I think that we already hit a reasonable level for an early Scorpion Bushi with noncombat focus) and weak (as we're Scorpion, and shouldn't care so much about propriety in the absence of utility). I'd love to hear a strong argument from utility, but assuming this guy dies or gets sent away, I don't think there's a particularly strong one to be made. I don't think straight assertions of utility really ought to mean much, though.

Also, even if you are advocating for additional expenditure on combat skill in general, shouldn't you be taking this guy's survival into account on top of that? If this guy lives, and we don't take steps, there's a very good chance that he'll come after us again. This *ought* to raise the priority of our combat skills, and have some influence on how much we invest in them.
 
Well, I've been nothing if not consistent in referring to Fire 4 as a "luxury purchase" :p You do make many fair points and I suppose that the only real argument for raising Kenjutsu 3, should Ginwei die, is that this is L5R and I don't expect this'll be the last time we need to pick up our katana to save our skin so let's call it argumentum ad scribo. (This is entirely tongue in cheek and I'll happily concede we're not likely to need it.)

Similarly, if this guy doesn't stick around--and honestly the more I think about it the more I feel like he will because it's just very interesting if Ketsui allows him one more chance (though it could be spun any which way so who knows)--then the question "why raise Reflexes in short order" must be asked and answered: and in this case the only thing I can come up with is to gain Insight and push us closer to the next rank.

Which would... improve our martial capabilities.

Which isn't actually terribly useful whatsoever in this hypothetical as has been established. So there's not really any reason to do so.

But I suppose there's not actually anything to do right now other than sit tight for the update.
 
Similarly, if this guy doesn't stick around--and honestly the more I think about it the more I feel like he will because it's just very interesting if Ketsui allows him one more chance (though it could be spun any which way so who knows
Given the way she was looking at him I don't think that she's going to give him a third chance to shame himself.
 
It would probably be a good idea to see which skills we can anticipate the need for (such as poetry for the upcoming festival, or calligraphy for the days where no one speaks), and which skills are useful in general (such as courtier, etiquette, investigation for our overall time here), and which skills are more situational, but likely to be extremely important when they come up (such as combat skills if we end up forced in a fight/duel).
Then try to plan our XP expenditures accordingly.
 
While we're letting him live this time, if this guy challenges us again in a non-trivial manner we either kill him ourselves or dishonour him into seppuku. We've put up with his shit twice, but letting him continue forever is just asking to get killed.
 
While we're letting him live this time, if this guy challenges us again in a non-trivial manner we either kill him ourselves or dishonour him into seppuku. We've put up with his shit twice, but letting him continue forever is just asking to get killed.

"Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge."
--Relevant Machiavelli Quote.

This isn't a setting where there are such things as trivial threats, and even if it was, he's sure as hell a non-trivial threat to us.
 
Perhaps I am confused. I hear various forms of "because being an effective Bushi is important" (not just recently - other conversations on exp expenditure as well). This is generally being used with an implied statement that we're not good enough at being a bushi yet, leading to the conclusion that we need to improve our combat abilities. What it doesn't have is a whole lot of explanation as to why it's important, or what situations we're likely to get into that would make it important. There's just the assertion that it is.

My thing is that Naoto is a warrior caste person in a Proud Warrior Race Honor Stronk culture.

Getting challenged to duels because we ticked somebody off as we poke around investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being attacked by bandits/assassins while we're poking around and investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being in the wrong place when a drunk off their gourd Lion, Crab, or Mantis decides to wreck the thing closest to them is a thing that could happen. For that matter, being attacked by someone possessed by literally demons from Hell has a nonzero chance of happening.

Boosting Naoto's combat skills means that when any or all of those bad things happen, his chances of not dying go up. And we're all in favor of not dying.

I'm not saying go full on CONSTANT VIGILANCE ALL EXP IN KILLING THINGS, but I would like to get to a position where we don't die the first time someone other than a rank amateur like Ginwei breathes on us. Heck, it was only because of Lady Luck and burning consumable items that we didn't die when Ginwei breathed on us.
 
Last edited:
This isn't a setting where there are such things as trivial threats, and even if it was, he's sure as hell a non-trivial threat to us.

There is a hierarchy of threats.

The threat that we dishonor the tournament's rules and literally everyone is gunning for us is somewhat more serious than any threat Matsu Ginwei poses at this time.
 
My thing is that Naoto is a warrior caste person in a Proud Warrior Race Honor Stronk culture.

Getting challenged to duels because we ticked somebody off as we poke around investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being attacked by bandits/assassins while we're poking around and investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being in the wrong place when a drunk off their gourd Lion, Crab, or Mantis decides to wreck the thing closest to them is a thing that could happen. For that matter, being attacked by someone possessed by literally demons from Hell has a nonzero chance of happening.

Boosting Naoto's combat skills means that when any or all of those bad things happen, his chances of not dying go up. And we're all in favor of not dying.

I'm not saying go full on CONSTANT VIGILANCE ALL EXP IN KILLING THINGS, but I would like to get to a position where we don't die the first time someone other than a rank amateur like Ginwei breathes on us. Heck, it was only because of Lady Luck and burning consumable items that we didn't die when Ginwei breathed on us.
Aren't literally all of those things that can be avoided through competence in other areas and taking proper safety measures?
If we want to avoid being killed in a duel, we are far better off taking steps to ensure noone has the justification necessary to force us into a duel that lets them kill us, because dedicated duelists or just bushi who aren't starting characters would still be able to kill us regardless.
And this means, even if duels were the only thing we cared about, we'd be better served investing our XP into the skills that let us make sure duels don't happen at all.

Bandits and assassins have much of the same issues, namely that if the only thing standing between bandits or assassins and our death is our personal combat skill, we must have really fucked up badly somewhere and are likely screwed anyways. Should have just brought a better fighter along to whereever we ran into bandits and/or assassins.

Yes, there are potentially going to be threats of a martial nature, but we know that this arc isn't a combat focused one and many threats that would like to be a mano-a-mano thing can be either fended off with courtier skills or are not necessarily going to be things we have to face personally on our own.

Threats that are of a martial nature, target us personally, with enough access and information to catch us on our own, liable to hit us before we pick up "party members" and weak enough that Reflex 3 is actually going to make the difference are just way too specific to prepare for out of general principle.
If Matsu Ginwei makes it out of this in a position to try something, we would have reason to prepare for this specific threat, but if he doesn't the odds of another one randomly showing up just doesn't justify the expenditure.

Lady Luck is a cruel and fickle mistress.
And that isn't an argument for combat buys either.
Random and unforseen threats can come from any direction and in any field and combat purchases would leave us weaker facing all non-combat threats.

It simply comes down to the fact that, the kind of situation where Reflexes 3 would help a lot or even be outright necessary is simply quite unlikely, whereas the kind of situation where the other purchases would benefit us noticably are going to be outright frequent.
 
My thing is that Naoto is a warrior caste person in a Proud Warrior Race Honor Stronk culture.

Getting challenged to duels because we ticked somebody off as we poke around investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being attacked by bandits/assassins while we're poking around and investigating stuff is a thing that can happen. Being in the wrong place when a drunk off their gourd Lion, Crab, or Mantis decides to wreck the thing closest to them is a thing that could happen. For that matter, being attacked by someone possessed by literally demons from Hell has a nonzero chance of happening.

Boosting Naoto's combat skills means that when any or all of those bad things happen, his chances of not dying go up. And we're all in favor of not dying.

I'm not saying go full on CONSTANT VIGILANCE ALL EXP IN KILLING THINGS, but I would like to get to a position where we don't die the first time someone other than a rank amateur like Ginwei breathes on us. Heck, it was only because of Lady Luck and burning consumable items that we didn't die when Ginwei breathed on us.
In general in L5R, I'd agree with you. In specific, though...

- Bandits: This is Shiro Matsu. There aren't going to be any bandits within its walls. Shiro Matsu is the sort of palce that Bandits stay way the hell away from.
- Assassins: Shiro Matsu is not the sort of place that tends to breed assassins, we haven't pissed anyone off enough to get assassins sent after us, and as Scorpion, we're the Clan most likely to act through assassins anyway.
- Challenges while we investigate: I admit that we are now beginning to embark on something that might upset someone enough that they'd challenge us to a duel to shut us up, but in general, Courtier skills are at least as strong a counter to that sort of thing as combat skills are, and as long as we can avoid being noticed in our investigations, we're not in danger. It's a possibility. There is certainly a possibility that we'll see combat another time or two over the course of Winter Court, but the vast majority can be avoided, and the points are more useful elsewhere. Battle skill *might* keep us alive if we fail miserably at our investigations. Other skills will help us not fail at our investigations.
 
Aren't literally all of those things that can be avoided through competence in other areas and taking proper safety measures?
So, we shouldn't need Combat Skills as long as we always make competent choices and we always take the proper safety measures.

Um. Do you remember that time we all voted in favor of going alone to a meeting with an unknown person or persons based on an anonymous note left on our pillow? Because if we're going to be doing things like that a lot, well... :p
 
Last edited:
So, we shouldn't need Combat Skills as long as we always make the "Competent" choice and we always take the proper safety measures in every situation.

Um. Do you remember that time we all voted in favor of going alone to a meeting with an unknown person or persons based on an anonymous left on our pillow? Because if we're going to be doing things like that a lot, well... :p
No, we shouldn't need Combat Skills as long as we are in one of the most secure fortresses of Rokugan, aren't planning to do anything that might put us into direct physical danger where Reflexes might make a difference and have more urgent pruchases to make.

When we are actually planning to poke around somewhere or whatever? You can make a lot better of a case for those purchases.
But right now we aren't. Right now we're trying to get our bearings, make friends, get into the confidence of certain people, figure out what everyone is here for and we need as much help as we can get with all of it.

Besides, if there are actually going to be people prepared to stab us at the next clandestine meeting we attend, odds are we're not going to get out alive in either case, so the mistake would be going in the first place, not our XP allocation.
 
If we want to avoid being killed in a duel, we are far better off taking steps to ensure noone has the justification necessary to force us into a duel that lets them kill us, because dedicated duelists or just bushi who aren't starting characters would still be able to kill us regardless.
You realize that's not going to happen, right? As a bushi, we're going to be sent out on missions as a yojimbo, as is our official position in Kimiko's entourage. If our charge gets into a situation where they need a duelist WE'RE going to be the ones who fight for them.

And please, this is SV. Why the confidence that we will always make the "correct" choice?

Bandits and assassins have much of the same issues, namely that if the only thing standing between bandits or assassins and our death is our personal combat skill, we must have really fucked up badly somewhere and are likely screwed anyways. Should have just brought a better fighter along to whereever we ran into bandits and/or assassins.
Because assassins will only attack us when we have all our guards (which I doubt we even have the pull for). It's also much likelier that WE will be the guard rather than the one being guarded due to our status as a bushi.
Yes, there are potentially going to be threats of a martial nature, but we know that this arc isn't a combat focused one and many threats that would like to be a mano-a-mano thing can be either fended off with courtier skills or are not necessarily going to be things we have to face personally on our own.
Just because it's court-focused doesn't mean there's not going to be any combat. Why are you so certain that this will be the case?

Threats that are of a martial nature, target us personally, with enough access and information to catch us on our own, liable to hit us before we pick up "party members" and weak enough that Reflex 3 is actually going to make the difference are just way too specific to prepare for out of general principle.
Do you seriously think this is the only situation where we're going to be fighting? Not only are we a warrior in a warrior culture in a court belonging to the Clan that puts more emphasis on martial skill than any other clan, this ridiculously narrow situation isn't going to be the sole instance we see combat. Not to mention as a bushi we're not the ones who are supposed to let other people fight, we do the fighting for them.

And yes, +5 to Armor TN and being likelier to strike first will make a difference in most of our fights.

And that isn't an argument for combat buys either.
Random and unforseen threats can come from any direction and in any field and combat purchases would leave us weaker facing all non-combat threats.
I can also make the argument that non-combat purchases leaves us weaker facing all combat threats. This isn't actually that compelling.
It simply comes down to the fact that, the kind of situation where Reflexes 3 would help a lot or even be outright necessary is simply quite unlikely, whereas the kind of situation where the other purchases would benefit us noticably are going to be outright frequent.
Alternatively, we spend all of our XP and put it into combat stats and skills, meaning that anybody who tries to fuck with us we can just challenge to a duel and be done with it! Brilliant plan! :V

None of us are saying we should neglect social skills. What we're saying is that just because we're in a court-focused arc doesn't mean we shouldn't put some of our XP into raising our combat stats, some of which have uses outside of combat as well.
 
- Bandits: This is Shiro Matsu. There aren't going to be any bandits within its walls. Shiro Matsu is the sort of palce that Bandits stay way the hell away from.
- Assassins: Shiro Matsu is not the sort of place that tends to breed assassins, we haven't pissed anyone off enough to get assassins sent after us, and as Scorpion, we're the Clan most likely to act through assassins anyway.
- Challenges while we investigate: I admit that we are now beginning to embark on something that might upset someone enough that they'd challenge us to a duel to shut us up, but in general, Courtier skills are at least as strong a counter to that sort of thing as combat skills are, and as long as we can avoid being noticed in our investigations, we're not in danger. It's a possibility. There is certainly a possibility that we'll see combat another time or two over the course of Winter Court, but the vast majority can be avoided, and the points are more useful elsewhere. Battle skill *might* keep us alive if we fail miserably at our investigations. Other skills will help us not fail at our investigations.

You raise some good points, but...

We're stuck in the fortress of a family whose signature school is Berserker, and none of them like us. (Not sure if putting Ginwei in his place in this bout will make that better or worse.)

Secondly, we're outsiders. If we have to go out into the town, we don't know what spots are okay for wealthy looking outsiders to wander around in and which ones where doing that will get your throat cut. Did I mention we're outsiders? I agree that it's unlikely any of the local criminal types have the stones (or the insanity) to have a go at a Matsu bushi in their own fortress, but again...we're outsiders, and, well, I can certainly see skulking about having to meet with unsavory sorts in disreputable locations as being a thing we'll have to do in this arc.

Now, we may well be able to talk our way out of any trouble we get into doing that sort of thing but to paraphrase Al Capone, "You get a lot more with kind words and a katana than kind words alone."
 
Last edited:
One of the problems with combat skills is a matter of optimization. There are a *lot* of pertinent combat skills - Agility, Reflexes, Strength, and the Earth ring as a whole are all pertinent. We're in a land of absurd combat monsters. We can make moderate improvements to our combat abilities, cranking us up from "weak for a starting bushi" to "low-to-mid-ranked combatant" but it will take essentially all of our exp to do. I do not believe that anyone is seriously suggesting this. The levels of investment we *are* considering, however, apply only within a fairly small band. It's enough to push us from "That one enraged Lion is a real threat to life and limb" to "we can probably take him. Probably." It's not going to be enough to save us if, say, Daidoji Chen decides that we have to die and he's willing to do some shady stuff to make it happen - Daidoji Chen is just too far above anything we could reasonably hope to accomplish. Similarly, it's not going to matter against random bandit trash because we can *already* take random bandit trash. L5R is a game where combat is kind of a big deal overall, which means that it has high granularity, and getting particularly good at it is *expensive*.

Now, we happen to know that in this *particular* game, combat isn't going to be as much of a feature. (Note that this contrasts with Glory of the Emerald Empire, where the theme is constantly shifting, putting Sousuke in situations he's not really prepared for.) So the challenges we face are mostly noncombat, and noncombat prowess is, by and large, cheaper for the same improvement in mastery as combat prowess. On the one side, we could get Reflexes to 4 and kenjutsu to 3. That would be a notable, useful improvement in combat skill that would move us from a step below the majority of our peers to a step above, and let us win a fair number of spars against Matsu bushi of our year group. For two more points than that, we could get Awareness to 4, Perception to 3, and investigation to 3 - significantly improving our ability to dig into the Crane issue, while also improving our ability to interact in court, influence people, and notice things in general.

Combat ability isn't just relatively low-importance. It's *expensive*.

Now, of course, if AkodoMatsu rageboy *does* live, the calculation changes - as not only do we have a much increased chance of seeing violence in both the near and moderate future, but our relationship to our rough peer group will be exactly the point on the combat effectiveness scale we care most about.
 
I enjoy reading all of this speculation and reasoning, and as such I'm not going to weigh in on what will or will not be a useful purchase for you. Well, just about everything could be useful to one degree or another, but it's always a matter of priorities in cases like this.

That said, I do look forwards to seeing how people's plans and priorities change as certain events unfold. There's at least one bombshell waiting to drop which should shake things up nicely. Whether said things turn out for better or worse in the end depends rather a lot on your decisions along the way.

Anyway, I'm done with my shift now, so I'll call the vote there. It'll probably be an hour or two before the next update comes along.
 
One of the problems with combat skills is a matter of optimization. There are a *lot* of pertinent combat skills - Agility, Reflexes, Strength, and the Earth ring as a whole are all pertinent. We're in a land of absurd combat monsters. We can make moderate improvements to our combat abilities, cranking us up from "weak for a starting bushi" to "low-to-mid-ranked combatant" but it will take essentially all of our exp to do. I do not believe that anyone is seriously suggesting this. The levels of investment we *are* considering, however, apply only within a fairly small band. It's enough to push us from "That one enraged Lion is a real threat to life and limb" to "we can probably take him. Probably." It's not going to be enough to save us if, say, Daidoji Chen decides that we have to die and he's willing to do some shady stuff to make it happen - Daidoji Chen is just too far above anything we could reasonably hope to accomplish. Similarly, it's not going to matter against random bandit trash because we can *already* take random bandit trash. L5R is a game where combat is kind of a big deal overall, which means that it has high granularity, and getting particularly good at it is *expensive*.

Now, we happen to know that in this *particular* game, combat isn't going to be as much of a feature. (Note that this contrasts with Glory of the Emerald Empire, where the theme is constantly shifting, putting Sousuke in situations he's not really prepared for.) So the challenges we face are mostly noncombat, and noncombat prowess is, by and large, cheaper for the same improvement in mastery as combat prowess. On the one side, we could get Reflexes to 4 and kenjutsu to 3. That would be a notable, useful improvement in combat skill that would move us from a step below the majority of our peers to a step above, and let us win a fair number of spars against Matsu bushi of our year group. For two more points than that, we could get Awareness to 4, Perception to 3, and investigation to 3 - significantly improving our ability to dig into the Crane issue, while also improving our ability to interact in court, influence people, and notice things in general.

Combat ability isn't just relatively low-importance. It's *expensive*.

Now, of course, if AkodoMatsu rageboy *does* live, the calculation changes - as not only do we have a much increased chance of seeing violence in both the near and moderate future, but our relationship to our rough peer group will be exactly the point on the combat effectiveness scale we care most about.
EARTH 3 IS LIFE DAMMIT

More accurately, willpower is nice for resisting rolls that fuck with us (Like a certain Yasuki) and stamina means if someone is dishonourable and poisons us (Like a certain Mantis) we'll survive, in addition to pulling long hours of watch and what have you. It's all in how you play it. I think that as we picked a bushi we can be relatively confident to have something come up that makes us have to go work for a living. Even with our QM invalidating the Hidden Emperor, War against the Lying Darkness and Spirit War plotlines, stuff is still happening you know?

Anyways you say that being a courtier is more important, while I'd be inclined to agree with you if we were courtiers, we picked a bushi and it seems really strange to ignore that, even if we're a non combat focused on.
 
i don't remember where exactly this was said, if it was, but I feel fairly safe in assuming, after a bit of thought, that most every skill we have can, or will be relevant to an extent because if things weren't plotted for that to be the case then our QM would be wasting Skills. If we did something really off the wall and had, say, a really good Artisan: Prose Writing score then we'd have potential plot revolve around that; as it is our in for many places is our vastly more efficient 5k4 at go.

"All the fighting we're going to really do is in the tournament as a Bushi" seems... very wasteful. It's also rather dry and I know for a fact that our QM's got a sense for the dramatic and actually can write his way out of a paper bag. So... while it might certainly not be the best choice in the event Ginwei lives, raising Kenjutsu to 3--not commenting on the Reflexes raise--certainly doesn't seem to be a waste.

Food for thought I suppose.
 
Even with our QM invalidating the Hidden Emperor, War against the Lying Darkness and Spirit War plotlines, stuff is still happening you know?

Oh, I never said I was invalidating those plot lines, at least not in their entirety. Toturi isn't getting kidnapped at the end of winter and your Clan isn't getting banished from Rokugan, but the Lying Darkness still exists. There's not going to be a march to Volturnum, but that doesn't mean the intelligent force of Primordial Annihilation is inactive by any means.
 
Back
Top