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In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)

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Maugan Ra said:
I believe I need to clarify here - while turning the offer of assistance around and getting them to name something they want first would be a useful strategy, it's not really a valid option right now. Doji Mariko is a student of the Doji Courtier School, and is making use of her Rank 1 Technique here.



She beat you on the roll, which isn't that surprising - her family and school both give +1 Awareness and she's got three ranks in Courtier. So she's rolling 7k4 against your 5k3, while also benefitting from an Emphasis which allows her to reroll 1's and a free Raise.

So essentially, if you need something you have to tell her. I'm allowing the option of just flatly denying her altogether, since absolute railroading sits poorly with me, but that will count as a Breach of Etiquette.

This is one of the tricker things about dealing with a Court game - the other courtiers have goals and abilities of their own, and can use them to control your actions to a certain degree.
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But we... don't really need anything. Not like that.

Huh. Direct reading would suggest that it's a yes/no question... which would be *odd* - and also unuseful. We will assume that it is not that thing. We should also assume that it won't tell her our complete List Of Needs - that would be *ridiculously* overpowered. Also, we'd like to avoid debates over precise definitions of "need" Rather, my guess is that it basically says "if there is at least one favor that you would find helpful, you have to tell me at least one of them." Further, from the "make it useful, not bizarre", it has to be a favor that the Crane could plausibly grant, or cause to be granted.

...and yep. We're in conversation with a courtier. We're playing for a tie. Still, she played an information-gathering power on us, and we're not willing to pay the cost of the perfect conversational dodge, so she gets information. Let's see what that information might be.

Let's look at real goals, and known subgoals.
- Walk out of this Winter Court with the Matsu on *generally* good terms with the Scorpion.
- Assist the Scorpion Trade Delegation in their work
-- Get an introduction to the Matsu Magistrates
- Generally improve the position of the Scorpion Clan
-- Acquire useful information on basically everyone
-- Acquire favors and friendly contacts
-- Generally impress people
-- Acquire a good position somewhere from whence to assist the Clan and/or marry into a useful position
-- Assist other Scorpion to do the same
-- Improve our reputation and position with respect to the Emperor and Imperial Bureaucracy

So, the lose case here is to ask for something that doesn't actually serve our goals well, and that opens us up for exploitation later.

The *win* case is to ask them for something that we would find useful - while in that same statement *giving* them something that they would find useful. I'm thinking information exchange. We hand them a block of useful information on someone, and then say that if they happen to find anything *else* about that person, we'd appreciate if they would tell us. Otomo-sama in particular springs immediately to mind, a someone we happen to have a fair bit of information on right now, that others might dearly wish to know more of, but it's dangerous. At a basic level, as far as our real objectives go, he's more important than she is. We don't want to do something that would upset him in the process of currying favor with her. We'd need it to be information that he'd be happy with them knowing, and we might wish the information we ask of them to be information he wouldn't mind them seeking.

I'm going to try to compose one, but I wanted to toss this out there for people to chew on and respond to while I do - might take a bit.
 
I don't think we have to give free information... we have to ask for a favor, but we are not obligated to offer any information over why we do need that favor.


If we go with the Otomo angle, we should ask for any information, as it would help with our clan and clearly the imperial magistrate is an important piece of this game, but we shouldn't give what we have on him.

Lets compare what she give us, with what we know about him.
 
Bastur2 said:
I don't think we have to give free information... we have to ask for a favor, but we are not obligated to offer any information over why we do need that favor.

If we go with the Otomo angle, we should ask for any information, as it would help with our clan and clearly the imperial magistrate is an important piece of this game, but we shouldn't give what we have on him.

Lets compare what she give us, with what we know about him.
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You misunderstand. We'd be giving them that information as a favor to them - specifically crafted as such. Thus, we would have done them a favor without them doing us a favor. That way, if and when they do do us that favor, they're just paying us back for the favor we did them. We get out from under the owing them a favor at all... and if we do it smoothly enough, we get cred for it as well.
 
Kelenas said:
One possibility I could think of would be to request their assistance in dealing with one of the other delegations, though the question would be which one. The only ones that aren't already covered would be either the Mantis, or the Otomo.
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Don't forget the Dragon. They don't particularly hate us or anything, sure, but they are acting rather weird recently. :p
 
So... what do we know, and what do we want to share?

We do want to share that we care about getting on his good side. It's an easy, defensible position to take, it's true, and it will help keep her from asking too much of us in the wrong directions. On the not-so-bright side, it means that she knows we're not subornable past a certain point. That does close a few potential doors.

- We know that he's a member of the Ministry of Service, and that knowing, and caring, about what that is and what it does is useful for getting on his less-bad side.

- We know that his role here in the Winter Court is something of a frustration to him - largely because of the nature of the Matsu. We have put some small effort into easing his way in this matter.

- We know that the Crane would be *all about* finding ways to "ease his way in this matter" - and he certainly wouldn't mind (assuming they didn't also harass him). We should totally work that in.

- The Crane surely know abotu the Otomo in general. That won't help.

...and, re-reading some of the old posts, I run into the quote "Your own family has a reputation for providing discrete support and information to your masters, does it not Soshi-san?" So... perhaps not the best plan. Probably cost more by failure to be discreet than we'd gain from it. Sad.

I still like the general idea, but I think that mentioning our connection with Otomo-sama is a poor choice. Will need more poking about.
 
I have no problem with people aiming to deflect or mitigate this, for the record, especially since there's no one singular thing that you can point to and say 'I need that'. So long as you conform to the spirit of the Technique - which is essentially 'How can I help you?' - then the specifics are yours to decide.

I'm also going to clarify now that since Kimoko asked you to build a relationship with the Crane, an answer along the lines of 'Make it apparent to my boss that I've accomplished my mission and made friends' is something that could be requested without triggering the Breach of Etiquette. That'd be the minimum level of commitment, really, and the Crane like to make friends in general so you wouldn't cause offense.

Since this is the first time an NPC has used a direct social skill and technique on you, I'm willing to give you a significant amount of leeway. It helps that you went for the friendly Crane first rather than, say, the Mantis. The Yoritomo are ridiculously good at being intimidating, and that's much more controlling and rather less friendly.
 
Kelenas said:
The problem is that asking for something too minor - and it's quite possible that "can you help me with my calligraphy/poetry" might qualify - could very well offend them, because they'd know we're asking for something incredibly minor that we could easily accomplish ourselves, because we don't want to be in their debt.
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Any other clan but Crane. Asking Crane to teach you culture/art is like asking Unicorn to teach you horseriding, only Crane are being proud of being teachers unlike Unicorn who keep it in-clan. NOT minor thing but quite acceptable.

...

And seriously stroking Crane ego.
 
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Maugan Ra said:
I'm also going to clarify now that since Kimoko asked you to build a relationship with the Crane, an answer along the lines of 'Make it apparent to my boss that I've accomplished my mission and made friends' is something that could be requested without triggering the Breach of Etiquette. That'd be the minimum level of commitment, really, and the Crane like to make friends in general so you wouldn't cause offense.
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Huh, if asking about teaching us calligraphy/poetry would be too little, we can make it more important sounding by framing it as "Us being seen together will satisfy my boss that I'm doing my job of building ties with you."

I think I like it.
 
Asking her help to get to know the lion magistrates could be the favor to ask.

We get a long duration favor, one that will force her to keep contact with us and will also help our secondary mission (to facilitate trade).
 
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The thing is, for the Crane, coming into Matsu territory...they're outsiders. Not only that, they're outsiders who have gone out of their way to flip the Matsu off with both hands.

What I'm saying is, when it comes to getting an introduction to the local Magistrates, they're not exactly in an ideal situation.
 
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Perhaps we could ask her to do something like ensure we are perceived in a certain way? Like, we intend to build a reputation as an intelligent character with a broad knowledge base, and while we'll have ample opportunity to demonstrate that on our own, it might be useful if we had someone besides us intentionally work to spread that reputation. Or any other reputation we want spread for that matter. While I doubt she'll be able to influence all of the delegates, I imagine that she could manage to ensure that at least a couple of other delegations notice us, and perceive us as we want them to see us.

Mostly just spitballing here, as we don't seem to have too many ideas. However, as this is our first major assignment, if we want to spread a reputation, here is a pretty good way to do so.
 
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Bastur2 said:
Asking her help to get to know the lion magistrates could be the favor to ask.

We get a long duration favor, one that will force her to keep contact with us and will also help our secondary mission (to facilitate trade).
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I understand why people want this, but it's really a no-go. Asking the *Crane* for an introduction to the *Lion* magistrates is a huge favor, and at least somewhat insulting, as it woudl require that the Crane get introduced to them first - which would in turn require that they be on good speaking terms with at least one of the Lion subsections. *That*, in turn, woudl require them to essentially give up on some of their clear goals. This is *not* the favor we shoudl ask them - especially when we can get the same connections much more quickly from the Ikoma (who will be dropping by at some point, if the looks from the end of day 1 mean anything).

Further thinking - we could absolutely pass along some specific, carefully vetted information about the Otomo that they would find useful - as long as we don't admit our sources, and don't admit that we're being of service to him. What we'd really *like* to tell them is something that he wants that they could give him, along with perhaps some background information on the Otomo and their leanings. What that gift could be, though... They're not well-suited to dig around in the Lion hierarchy for obvious reasons, and that's the only helpable goal he's admitted to. Bah.

Actually, though, we're in a better position for that. @Maugan Ra - A request for Pale Oak, to be passed on as soon as feasible. He's interacting directly with the representatives of the Lion on matters of trade. If there *is* someone on their side keeping the books (*any* books), they're likely to be interacting at least peripherally with the people making trade deals with Pale Oak and company. If he can find out who those people might be (strong preference for Samurai caste) then we would very much like to have those names. If the Lion economy (such as it is) is entirely Heimen-run, then even the names of the Heimen involved would be helpful. (We can give them to the Ikoma, who can then assign someone of the samurai caste to handle it, and then hand *that* guy to Otomo-sama). Preferably we'd have that done by the time Otomo-sama next calls on us. Actually, beyond that, any information he can easily gather on who important among the lion (samurai and Heimen) deals with such things might well be useful.

Okay. I've dug at this one a while, and I'm not getting anywhere on implementation. It's not well-crafted, but...
[] Ask her for nothing but her goodwill and her company. Throw in a bit of (accurate) flattery. Crane like flattery. Also, we would get actual value out of her goodwill and company.
[] Express a hope that you can find a way to make what time she deigns to spend with you worthwhile, that you too might do your duty as a descendant of Sun and Moon.
[] As an example, offer some useful-to-her insights into some of the attendees. Present it in an "of course you know this, but you might find it useful to know that this is also true" format.

I'm sure that that could be written more beautifully, and making it more specific would certainly help, but I just don't have the brain for it right now.

"What I *truly* desire, Doji-sama, is that you owe me favors. Can you give me that?"
 
[X] Sirrocco

We don't really have a need for any favor at this point in time.

Interesting that we have more problems in telling her this than creating a need.
 
In regards to the Otomo, while I'm in favor of getting on his good side, I'll be blunt and say that I have absolutely no interest in getting into his entourage as some people here seem to want. It just doesn't hold any appeal to me; I'm here because I like the idea of playing political games as and for the Scorpion, not because I want to play gopher for some Imperial official.

Bastur2 said:
I don't think asking for help improving ourselves is a too minor favor... we would, after all, be taking a considerable amount of her time.

It is just that it isn't something important and would keep us in contact. .. after that, any favor that would be asked of us would be of same value to a level one trait, maybe training (so to keep the close link), maybe information...
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I'm kind of warming up to the idea of asking something of a more personal nature, (ie, her doing a favor for us, rather than our delegation as a whole), because putting the entirety of our Scorpion delegation into the Crane's debt might get us in hot water with our superior. Calligraphy and/or Poetry might be fairly good options for that due to the Crane's reputation, as al103 pointed out.

Felius said:
Don't forget the Dragon. They don't particularly hate us or anything, sure, but they are acting rather weird recently. :p
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They're always acting weird. They're the Dragon. :p
More seriously, though; I didn't forget about them. I mentioned that we already had a bit of an in with them via Hanzo (he talked with their representative here while we went and talked with Tani), so it doesn't really seem like we need to do anything in that regard.

Maugan Ra said:
Since this is the first time an NPC has used a direct social skill and technique on you, I'm willing to give you a significant amount of leeway. It helps that you went for the friendly Crane first rather than, say, the Mantis. The Yoritomo are ridiculously good at being intimidating, and that's much more controlling and rather less friendly.
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I think the issue is less that she used social skills/technique on us, and more that it's simply so early in the game we don't really have a good answer to give, because we know so little about the overall situation. If this was a bit further into our time at this court, we probably would already have encountered some problem we can't solve on our own and/or where the Crane's help would be highly useful (like, say, trying to make nice with the Mantis, but his Tsuruchi yojimbo making it difficult), but as it stands we're basically still scouting the area when she suddenly ambushed us.

Sirrocco said:
[] Ask her for nothing but her goodwill and her company. Throw in a bit of (accurate) flattery. Crane like flattery. Also, we would get actual value out of her goodwill and company.
[] Express a hope that you can find a way to make what time she deigns to spend with you worthwhile, that you too might do your duty as a descendant of Sun and Moon.
[] As an example, offer some useful-to-her insights into some of the attendees. Present it in an "of course you know this, but you might find it useful to know that this is also true" format.
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I like it overall, though I'd like to add a request for assistance with our Calligraphy/Poetry, perhaps. After the discussion with and between the other players, I think that it would be both suitable as a favor to ask, it could help us in the long run, it would give us a good pretext to spend more time interacting with them, and would help accomplish our goal of making nice with the Crane.
 
Kelenas said:
In regards to the Otomo, while I'm in favor of getting on his good side, I'll be blunt and say that I have absolutely no interest in getting into his entourage as some people here seem to want. It just doesn't hold any appeal to me; I'm here because I like the idea of playing political games as and for the Scorpion, not because I want to play gopher for some Imperial official.
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We would absolutely still be playing political game as and for the scorpion while in this guys entourage. That's part of the point of being in his entourage - that "Imperial entourage" is a good place to aid your clan from. Admittedly, it would change the nature of the game, but it doesn't necessarily change the nature of our overall goals.

Kelenas said:
I like it overall, though I'd like to add a request for assistance with our Calligraphy/Poetry, perhaps. After the discussion with and between the other players, I think that it would be both suitable as a favor to ask, it could help us in the long run, it would give us a good pretext to spend more time interacting with them, and would help accomplish our goal of making nice with the Crane.
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The problem is that "help with Calligraphy/Poetry" is a significant favor to ask - which means that she'll be asking for a significant favor back, later. It sets us closer to the track of "subornable". On the other hand, naming something relatively trivial (like "company and good will") and then immediately turning around and giving her something pushes us more to the "Scorpion/Crane friendly rivalry" side of things - challenging her to find ways to do more for us than we're doing for her, lest we call a favor from her in later. It also makes us more interesting, in a way. Some girls like a challenge.

Also, there's a crunch question. As far as I can tell, we don't actually get a crunch benefit from someone teaching us something. Do we? The idea of asking for a significant boon, that in-game is just going to be fluff, bugs me at a metagaming level.
 
OK, so currently I'm undecided between three routes:

Imperial route:
[ ] "I only wish is to be seen as a dutiful servant of the Empire, as we all do." Said with a slight emphasis on seen.

Here we ask for help in getting into Otomo's good graces. It's the option that puts us the most in the Crane's debt, but it's also the most difficult for them, and the potential benefits for us are quite large.

-[ ] "Have you met Otomo-sama yet, Doji-sama? He impressed me as a man of great refinement and intellect, as expected from an Imperial Family. Though it seems Shiro Matsu has discomfited him with how different it must be from the Imperial Capital."

We can slightly offset the debt by offering information about him (He's not fond of the Matsu, and responds well to intelligent conversation), but almost certainly not entirely. It does establish us as an information source.

Teaching route:
[ ] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."

This is more conservative. We ask for something they can easily give us, and something that interests them, and start paying some back. This puts us in comparatively little debt, but insures we'll be spending a lot of time around the Crane, which can be good or bad depending on what we're planning.

Flirting, flattering route:
[ ] ?

I have trouble writing this out myself, since flattery and flirtatiousness are definitely not my strength.
Sirrocco said:
[] Ask her for nothing but her goodwill and her company. Throw in a bit of (accurate) flattery. Crane like flattery. Also, we would get actual value out of her goodwill and company.
[] Express a hope that you can find a way to make what time she deigns to spend with you worthwhile, that you too might do your duty as a descendant of Sun and Moon.
[] As an example, offer some useful-to-her insights into some of the attendees. Present it in an "of course you know this, but you might find it useful to know that this is also true" format.
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Something like what Sirroco wrote here, basically.

This is the most defensive option. It moves things firmly away from clan doing business with clan and into the realm of the personal, and avoids establishing any real debt (yet). There is potential for fallout, if for example Chen turns out to be her fiancé or something, and the benefits if we succeed may not be all that important to us. It depends on what exactly her status is and where our future takes us. Having a high placed lover could be useful in the future, but we'd be getting rather ahead of ourselves by planning for it now.



It's a close choice, but I'll vote for

[X] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."

For now at least.
 
[X] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."
 
veekie said:
That'd be the point of it I think. By striking early, we have to choose in haste and upset plans/reveal motives
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It's more that it seems like a somewhat aggressive and premature move; if we don't have anything we need, after all, we would be forced to refuse, which might cause unnecessary enmity between our delegations, just because the Crane moved this quickly.

I'm kinda wondering why they're moving so fast, rather than spending more time testing the waters. Maybe they're in a hurry to make friends, either due to their current situation as a whole, or because of their goals here at court?

Sirrocco said:
We would absolutely still be playing political game as and for the scorpion while in this guys entourage. That's part of the point of being in his entourage - that "Imperial entourage" is a good place to aid your clan from. Admittedly, it would change the nature of the game, but it doesn't necessarily change the nature of our overall goals.
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The problem is that we'd most likely be working more for this guy than for the Scorpion. Or that we'd have to balance our duty to him with our duty to the clan. Which, frankly, I have no interest in.

The problem is that "help with Calligraphy/Poetry" is a significant favor to ask - which means that she'll be asking for a significant favor back, later. It sets us closer to the track of "subornable". On the other hand, naming something relatively trivial (like "company and good will") and then immediately turning around and giving her something pushes us more to the "Scorpion/Crane friendly rivalry" side of things - challenging her to find ways to do more for us than we're doing for her, lest we call a favor from her in later. It also makes us more interesting, in a way. Some girls like a challenge.

Also, there's a crunch question. As far as I can tell, we don't actually get a crunch benefit from someone teaching us something. Do we? The idea of asking for a significant boon, that in-game is just going to be fluff, bugs me at a metagaming level.
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I believe that you are vastly overstating the importance/significance of that favor. If we would be asking that she get us into the Kakita Academy; *that* would be a significant favor. Asking for some personal time from her or one of her subordinates? Hardly as world-shaking as you make it sound.

Also, naming something explicitly trivial (ie, your "company and goodwill") could very well be seen as a polite refusal, and thus a Breach of Etiquette, since it effectively amounts to declining by asking nothing.

Can always just ask the GM, though.

@Maugan Ra: Would asking for help with our calligraphy/poetry be seen as a major favor? Or as a sufficient favor to satisfy the requirements of her question/technique?
Also, would it actually have any mechanical benefits or "merely" be fluff?
 
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[X] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."

Okay. I can accept this. We've demonstrated enough skill in Go that our (cloaked) offer to help teach her is meaningful (especially since she's declared an interest in learning the game) and about on par with asking her for help with poetry and calligraphy. I'd want to wait the actual *investments* in poetry and calligraphy until after the tournament (still hoping to afford ref 3), but being unskilled at first actually works for us here - it's pretty much directly how we're presenting ourselves.
 
Kelenas said:
*looks at this*

...

*looks at the post I just quoted above*

Dude, you're giving me whiplash with how quickly you changed your mind... :confused:
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The difference is that the currently running vote is giving her back something of approximately equivalent value - we're essentially offering some training in Go in exchange for training in courtly arts. It's also only asking for a *bit* of help with calligraphy/poetry. "Hey, could you look at a few, and tell me what you think" isn't nearly as big a deal as "hey, could you teach me". As such, the favor being asked for is lesser, the favor being offered is on par with it, and we're not really in her debt. It was the "being in her debt over this" that I was being troubled by. Strengthening the relationship through a more-or-less even exchange is much less of an issue.
 
[X] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."

I like it, and it also interestingly enough handles the "make it appear the Scorpion and the Crane are in good terms with each other in this court" our boss asked of us, by virtue of being seen spending time together.
 
[X] "It embarrasses me to say it, but I've found I my not have given studying the way of the brush the importance it deserves. Now, I find I do not know enough to even determine how little I know. I feel concerned that, should I send off a missive or try to recite a poem, I will make a laughingstock of myself. If you found the time to give me your honest assessment of some of my work, it would do a lot to set my mind at ease. Perhaps we could also find the time to play a game ourselves. When learning one should engage a variety of opponents, as each brings to the fore a different aspect of ones own play."
 
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