Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
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[Jk] "Ah yes, I thinking of challenging that Kakita of yours to a death duel. That would get Matsu Ketsui to notice me, don't you think? If you could deliver my challenge to them..."
In Thunder's Echo (Legend of the Five Rings Quest)
Don't you mean that taking their assistance would mean the Crane will want us to help them in something in the future? Unless you mean turning the offer of assistance around like Sirrocco suggested?
Hmm let me try something.
[x] "Naturally it is our duty to help our fellow samurai and those beneath us, I'm glad you understand that. Still, one would hope that a Samurai never needs to ask for such assistance, pride is a powerful thing and along with honour it is often what we are left with in this turbulent world of ours. It is always a sad event when pride must be swallowed by need and duty, although it happens every day I know."
Continue playing.
"If I may enquire as to how you would help a samurai in need Doji-sama? As an exercise in compassion if nothing more."
----
Still not satisfied, but hopefully puts them slightly on the back foot and all that rot.
[x] "Naturally it is our duty to help our fellow samurai and those beneath us, I'm glad you understand that. Still, one would hope that a Samurai never needs to ask for such assistance, pride is a powerful thing and along with honour it is often what we are left with in this turbulent world of ours. It is always a sad event when pride must be swallowed by need and duty, although it happens every day I know."
Continue playing.
"If I may enquire as to how you would help a samurai in need Doji-sama? As an exercise in compassion if nothing more."
----
Still not satisfied, but hopefully puts them slightly on the back foot and all that rot.
Wow, we're really in a kind of bad situation in that update. On one hand, we can't really decline the offer just like that. On the other hand, I can't really think of anything we'd need the Crane's help for - at least, not this early in the court, when we basically know nothing about the other players and delegations involved.
- Court Romance generally isn't taken badly (and, in fact, even something to brag about), as long as it's done with subtlety/deniability. Yes, that includes the bragging being subtle/deniable. That's even the case if one - or even both - the participants are married.
It's also noteworthy that such a romance can be entirely platonic, essentially just consisting of spending time in each other's presence, playing games, or exchanging love letters/poems. So, I don't think it's as dangerous as you seem to think.
- The Wasp Clan archer is most likely a really bad, or at least really *difficult* idea for a court romance; not necessarily because of the archery (which might not even be a factor for getting her interest), but also because the Wasp Clan really, really dislike/hate both the Lion and the Scorpion Clan, due to the role they played in the history of the Wasp Clan's founding.
- I don't think that marriage arrangements should play too much, if any, role in our considerations for how we act at this court. For one, arrangements like that can be made at pretty much any time; they're not too dependent on our actions here. For another, it simply might be better to wait a little, so we have more chances to prove ourselves and possibly rise in status.
That's... a very long post. Don't think I'll be able to address all of it, so I'll probably not even try. Instead, some things that stood out to me;
- Court Romance generally isn't taken badly (and, in fact, even something to brag about), as long as it's done with subtlety/deniability. Yes, that includes the bragging being subtle/deniable. That's even the case if one - or even both - the participants are married.
It's also noteworthy that such a romance can be entirely platonic, essentially just consisting of spending time in each other's presence, playing games, or exchanging love letters/poems. So, I don't think it's as dangerous as you seem to think.
- The Wasp Clan archer is most likely a really bad, or at least really *difficult* idea for a court romance; not necessarily because of the archery (which might not even be a factor for getting her interest), but also because the Wasp Clan really, really dislike/hate both the Lion and the Scorpion Clan, due to the role they played in the history of the Wasp Clan's founding.
- I don't think that marriage arrangements should play too much, if any, role in our considerations for how we act at this court. For one, arrangements like that can be made at pretty much any time; they're not too dependent on our actions here. For another, it simply might be better to wait a little, so we have more chances to prove ourselves and possibly rise in status.
- Location
- London, England
I believe I need to clarify here - while turning the offer of assistance around and getting them to name something they want first would be a useful strategy, it's not really a valid option right now. Doji Mariko is a student of the Doji Courtier School, and is making use of her Rank 1 Technique here.
She beat you on the roll, which isn't that surprising - her family and school both give +1 Awareness and she's got three ranks in Courtier. So she's rolling 7k4 against your 5k3, while also benefitting from an Emphasis which allows her to reroll 1's and a free Raise.
So essentially, if you need something you have to tell her. I'm allowing the option of just flatly denying her altogether, since absolute railroading sits poorly with me, but that will count as a Breach of Etiquette.
This is one of the tricker things about dealing with a Court game - the other courtiers have goals and abilities of their own, and can use them to control your actions to a certain degree.
She beat you on the roll, which isn't that surprising - her family and school both give +1 Awareness and she's got three ranks in Courtier. So she's rolling 7k4 against your 5k3, while also benefitting from an Emphasis which allows her to reroll 1's and a free Raise.
So essentially, if you need something you have to tell her. I'm allowing the option of just flatly denying her altogether, since absolute railroading sits poorly with me, but that will count as a Breach of Etiquette.
This is one of the tricker things about dealing with a Court game - the other courtiers have goals and abilities of their own, and can use them to control your actions to a certain degree.
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
@Maugan Ra Would it be a valid option to deflect the Crane's offer onto a third party? Suggest that X needs assistance and we had been thinking on how we could assist them (out of our sense of duty etc) and can Doji Mariko help.
Try to push it in the direction of Scorpion/Crane co-operating to assist a third party for mutual benefit.
Try to push it in the direction of Scorpion/Crane co-operating to assist a third party for mutual benefit.
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Hmm, interesting. Yeah, then I'm leaning towards something so minor that we'd owe them little in return. Because, to be blunt, whatever relationship we want with Crane, we're in a bind right now, and I don't want to commit ourselves when we don't actually have any latitude.
...I still think we should have set the topic to allow us to bring it to some neutral/philosophical topic that would go nowhere so we could scout them out for later, but oh well!
Edit: At first I thought it was pretty OP as an ability, but really, other than the danger it has to our agency, it isn't really. I mean, it can't keep us from doing anything, it just forces us to the table...
And so the best thing to do would be to order a glass of water at the bar, in other words.
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That's... Actually quite the ingenuous idea. Not necessarily or strictly caligraphy, but if the favor is minor enough we can basically owe them little enough that it is not a problem either.
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And if we *do* ever want to become temporary allies, well...
Small favors could add up over time into some sort of working relationship during the Winter Court, without forcing us to make a big move on the second or third day.
Remember, it's early in the Winter Court, and so for a Scorpion-like strategy, the worst thing we could do is commit ourselves and reveal ourselves too early.*
I wonder if we could bring the favor around to discuss Go? Like, 'To learn to become better at Go is [Philosophical stuff] and thus a good opponent to match against is a great favor?' Make this whole thing about Go in a way...and they can certainly draw conclusions.
They'll guess that we're going to participate in the Go stuff later on, if we say it right it shows respect for their skill even though they lost, and it 'tells' them that we're likely to use Go as a means of diplomacy in the future, if we're looking to gain skill at it.
Whether we want to or not.
Edit: Also, questions: how does training work? I mean, from what I can guess from the dice, they're better at Go than us, but we're smarter, is that right?
*Better to set the stage now and start making major moves later, after all. See how the pieces fall, etc, etc.
Edit 2: There's also a second message in asking for a small favor.
It implies that both US and the Clan don't NEED any favors. That we're strong (stronger than we are) and in control. If we asked for, I dunno, economic help, that implies that we NEED economic help. If we asked for a polo pony, it'd imply we (the character, not the clan) have some need for a polo pony.
So by asking for little, we're implying a strength that doesn't exist, which is a good thing! It's lying without some of the pesky problems that lying lead to, like being found out to be lying. Merely implying certain things has fewer of those traps.
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@Maugan Ra wouldn't the fact that we don't really need any favor at this point be an answer to her hability?
Or the fact that we need to keep talking with her be what she would discern by the use of it..
Or the fact that we need to keep talking with her be what she would discern by the use of it..
I was thinking of calligraphy as we have an interest in raising it, so we would have in character reason for it
Not only that, but it would keep us in talks with her and would allow us to exchange letters without being seen as strange.
A Nation's Virtue
南國山河南帝居
Poetry is a viable alternative.
*Naoto then proceeds to use the poetry skills she taught him to woo her*
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Poetry is a viable alternative.
*Naoto then proceeds to use the poetry skills she taught him to woo her*
Her: "Eyes like the..." I taught him that simile! Really?
Poetry is a viable alternative.
*Naoto then proceeds to use the poetry skills she taught him to woo her*
We'd need to be careful how we framed that. The Crane are known as the 'let's not fight guys' clan, and if we asked for anything like that in the wrong way, it'd come off sorta condescending, you know? Not that I think Poetry is a bad idea, either, but we'd need to find the right way to ask it, rather than just saying, "So, you're a wimpy Crane, are you? I bet you love poetry and pressing flowers and writing pretty letters, so why don't you teach me some of that?"
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Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
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- He/His/Him
Okay, first of all, our boss wants us to get in good with the Crane while she (sort of) makes nice with the Lion, so flat out NOPING this offer and ruffling their feathers? Bad plan.
As I see it, our problem is we don't KNOW what we want...maybe have our character set a goal and ask for Crane help with that? I like the idea of us impressing the Otomo and getting to be part of his retinue, gives us an in story reason to be going all over the place doing interesting things, maybe we should ask for a favor that will help out with that?
Although having them do us a solid there would give them leverage for something significant in the future.
As I see it, our problem is we don't KNOW what we want...maybe have our character set a goal and ask for Crane help with that? I like the idea of us impressing the Otomo and getting to be part of his retinue, gives us an in story reason to be going all over the place doing interesting things, maybe we should ask for a favor that will help out with that?
Although having them do us a solid there would give them leverage for something significant in the future.
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another possibility of offering them a favor, would be that we need to be in their good grace, so by allowing it, they would be making us a favor.
More like "I'd been worried about embarrassing myself in the Winding River Banquet. *hands over stacks of embarrassingly sappy poetry* I could use another set of eyes." Then watch her try to keep a straight face
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If calligraphy is not to everyone wants... and all the rest is too much at this time, maybe ask for some help with our go, as we need training and this victory was do to beginner's luckMore like "I'd been worried about embarrassing myself in the Winding River Banquet. *hands over stacks of embarrassingly sappy poetry* I could use another set of eyes." Then watch her try to keep a straight face
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Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
As one of my friends said, 'if he sticks it there, now you've got to subcontract out to them'
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...also, thank you @Maugan Ra , for this whole thread. I like reading the updates, and they seem like they might be very good training indeed in how to handle courtly dialogue.
Might help with one of my Quests, sooner or later.
Might help with one of my Quests, sooner or later.
The problem is that asking for something too minor - and it's quite possible that "can you help me with my calligraphy/poetry" might qualify - could very well offend them, because they'd know we're asking for something incredibly minor that we could easily accomplish ourselves, because we don't want to be in their debt.
We might be able to avoid this by phrasing it correctly - perhaps playing up the angle of the Crane being known for its artistry - but it's a bit risky, in my opinion.
Perhaps we should look a bit at our current situation?
As it stands, our goals are to keep relations with the Matsu good enough that they don't hinder or harass our merchants, and if possible gain some political capital with the other clans present. Plus, garner some information on the local magistrates for Pale Oak.
Regarding those goals;
- Kimiko is handling the relations with the Matsu, and shouldn't really require much, if any, support from us in this. She's already working to establish a sort of friendly/angry rivalry that should get Ketsui's - and the local Matsu's in general - respect. If she needs anything from us in that regard, she'll ask.
- Hanzo already has an in with the Dragon, apparently, and will be working on the Unicorn. It might be useful to throw some support his way, but it could just as easily be detrimental, at least without coordinating with him in this matter.
- For the Phoenix, we have an in via Tani, and it really shouldn't be too difficult to expand on that, based on our first conversation with her. Thus, we don't really need Mariko's assistance in this matter.
- Our second goal is to improve relations with the Crane, which... we're kind of trying to do, before she went and talked us into a corner.
I rather doubt that "I want you guys to like us" is a viable favor to ask, though. One possibility I could think of would be to request their assistance in dealing with one of the other delegations, though the question would be which one. The only ones that aren't already covered would be either the Mantis, or the Otomo. And the latter might be a fairly big favor to ask for.
Alternatively, we could ask for the Crane's assistance with our goal of gathering more information on the local magistrates. It would probably play into Scorpion-stereotypes ("Ah, look at them! Probing for moral/ethical weaknesses such as individuals susceptible to bribe or blackmail...") without giving away our main purpose, and might even mislead them in that regard; make them think we have some sort of sinister plot, when all we want is free and profitable trade.
Thoughts?
We might be able to avoid this by phrasing it correctly - perhaps playing up the angle of the Crane being known for its artistry - but it's a bit risky, in my opinion.
Perhaps we should look a bit at our current situation?
As it stands, our goals are to keep relations with the Matsu good enough that they don't hinder or harass our merchants, and if possible gain some political capital with the other clans present. Plus, garner some information on the local magistrates for Pale Oak.
Regarding those goals;
- Kimiko is handling the relations with the Matsu, and shouldn't really require much, if any, support from us in this. She's already working to establish a sort of friendly/angry rivalry that should get Ketsui's - and the local Matsu's in general - respect. If she needs anything from us in that regard, she'll ask.
- Hanzo already has an in with the Dragon, apparently, and will be working on the Unicorn. It might be useful to throw some support his way, but it could just as easily be detrimental, at least without coordinating with him in this matter.
- For the Phoenix, we have an in via Tani, and it really shouldn't be too difficult to expand on that, based on our first conversation with her. Thus, we don't really need Mariko's assistance in this matter.
- Our second goal is to improve relations with the Crane, which... we're kind of trying to do, before she went and talked us into a corner.
I rather doubt that "I want you guys to like us" is a viable favor to ask, though. One possibility I could think of would be to request their assistance in dealing with one of the other delegations, though the question would be which one. The only ones that aren't already covered would be either the Mantis, or the Otomo. And the latter might be a fairly big favor to ask for.
Alternatively, we could ask for the Crane's assistance with our goal of gathering more information on the local magistrates. It would probably play into Scorpion-stereotypes ("Ah, look at them! Probing for moral/ethical weaknesses such as individuals susceptible to bribe or blackmail...") without giving away our main purpose, and might even mislead them in that regard; make them think we have some sort of sinister plot, when all we want is free and profitable trade.
Thoughts?
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This brings something to mind. One of the ways we could avoid having a debt hanging over our heads is to immediately suggest a repayment. Such as giving Mariko some practice games, since she's a beginner and we just beat Chen. Although we'd have to phrase that so as to not insult Chen, who is currently teaching her.
If we're considering wooing her, arranging to have regular excuses to meet would be good.
I don't think asking for help improving ourselves is a too minor favor... we would, after all, be taking a considerable amount of her time.
It is just that it isn't something important and would keep us in contact. .. after that, any favor that would be asked of us would be of same value to a level one trait, maybe training (so to keep the close link), maybe information...
PS. Your idea on the magistratest is a good one.
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I do kind of like the Otomo angle already mentioned.
It works well with our overall goal here, is probably something they can provide, is something that can be seen as part of either the "somewhat subornable" angle or the "desperately running damage control because of crazy Kimoko" angle depending on what we ultimately want to go for and would at least somewhat imply that we're not available for stuff that would be liable to piss off the Otomo, which would presumably include most things that would piss off the Lion enough to disrupt trade, without actually touching on that we don't want to have a hand in pissing off the Lion either.
I'm not sure how big a favour this would actually be though and the implication that we rather wouldn't do anything to displease Otomo does not actually mean they wouldn't still ask us for something like that, especially if they end up asking us for something sufficiently sneaky or deniable that still annoys the Lion enough to cause us trouble.
It works well with our overall goal here, is probably something they can provide, is something that can be seen as part of either the "somewhat subornable" angle or the "desperately running damage control because of crazy Kimoko" angle depending on what we ultimately want to go for and would at least somewhat imply that we're not available for stuff that would be liable to piss off the Otomo, which would presumably include most things that would piss off the Lion enough to disrupt trade, without actually touching on that we don't want to have a hand in pissing off the Lion either.
I'm not sure how big a favour this would actually be though and the implication that we rather wouldn't do anything to displease Otomo does not actually mean they wouldn't still ask us for something like that, especially if they end up asking us for something sufficiently sneaky or deniable that still annoys the Lion enough to cause us trouble.