- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Aside: So long as that g is lowercase (greek-esque polytheistic), Jade does not currently believe they are lying when Agneyastra presents her as a goddess.
Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)
- Thread starter Alivaril
- Start date
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- Tags
- fairy tail magi: the labyrinth of magic magic the gathering magical girl lyrical nanoha (magical girl) puella magi madoka magica rwby alternate universe spoilers unreliable narrator earned your happy middle feedback appreciated life slowly gets better metaknowledge is overrated never too much fire setting knowledge not required this can only end well what could possibly go wrong?
Aside: So long as that g is lowercase (greek-esque polytheistic), Jade does not currently believe they are lying when Agneyastra presents her as a goddess.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't think that she is lying either. It is just that another poster was suggesting that we lie in order to appear more authentic. I don't agree with that.
Hestia&theCourt
Turns out we're plural too.
- Location
- In transition
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Skip ahead and ask him what would fit his definition of divinity.
- Location
- Germany
Do you want mages to try assassinating us? Because that's how you get Magnostadt's ruling class to attack. They're already backstabbing each other:
Both are perks of divinity. Sigurd explicitly stated that with more worship, Jade will be able to exist without a mortal vessel and gain abilities according to her domain. If you consider it wrong to set them in context to worship (although my argument only implies and never explicitly states that she got them through worship), I don't mind if Jade uses a different wording.
You completely ignore that he already accepts Magi as "more than powerful mages." Ergo, an analogue difference for gods deserves the same recognition.
It's the truth, and basically anyone on the plane reveres Magi for a similar reason.
The conceptual and instinctive nature of divine powers are a nice addition, though.
I thought you didn't want to lie? That's a planeswalker ability, mere gods can't do that.
3 is a lie, 4 implies a lie since the avatar creation is far more limited than "granting life." So do you think implied lies are acceptable or not? You both use and condemn them.
It wasn't a lie, I just listed abilities we would have received through worship but already have through other means in the context of worship. Again, I don't mind at all if you want a wording that doesn't imply a falsehood.
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These seem to work, as they are functional.
No, it's not about avatars. It's about being able to set up afterlives. Gods can do this, and Jade, while currently incapable of this, has the potential to be able to do this.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We should mention "I have many abilities that can be considered divine, but the easiest to demonstrate is that I am conspectually immue to fire. You can test that if you want".
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
D'awwwww.
This is extremely weird. Enough so that I'd like to propose a line to be prepended to everyone's vote:
[X] Subtly check to see if this is Sidhe trolling you. She's good at illusions, right? And sneaky and espionage-minded. And Agneyastra was way too quick to dismiss a gesture that's not known to exist on the plane.
-[x] If it is Sidhe, play along enough to give you an opening to prank her back.
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- Location
- Germany
Neph mentioned that he'd appear and that it'd be fun discussing the nature of divinity with him, so I don't think we have to worry about this being a prank.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Oh, right, I forgot about that.
This is still super weird. Do we think Neph would be in on it?
- Location
- Germany
Agneyastra would have to be part of it as well, considering that she can see souls. And "Terry is male" at least means that there is a male Terry, though admittedly not that he is standing before us.
Still, signs point to this being Terry.
Edit: Another argument is that Sidhe's illusions (spoof senses) are mental and wouldn't pass through our Firewall. Admittedly, she just visited a workshop on light-based illusions, so it could be her.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Claiming to be immortal and invincible is also a way to invite Magnostadt's ruling class to attack, from that kind of paranoid point of view. Because a person who walks their streets claiming to be an invincible immortal is exactly the kind of person they should all gang up on and try to take down right away. You don't say shit like that if you don't plan to start throwing your weight around.
My concern in this matter is solely restricted to wanting Jade to not tell lies about things like this.
I'm not so clear that Terry does feel that way. Then again, I may just be a bit hazy about how this plane works, and making mistakes accordingly.
Fair enough; I got slack here and you are right to call me out on this. On the other hand, we know that on at least SOME of the planes, gods DO have access to alternate dimensions within their own planes of existence. The fact that our own abilities are of a rather higher order, given that Jade's divinity and her planeswalker spark are tied together anyway, is a bit... well, it's complicated, but in the name of not misrepresenting anything maybe it had better be dropped.
As noted, while gods generally can't planeswalk, they do tend to have interdimensional ability within a given plane.
More to the point, what I'm getting at is that a reasonable definition of "god" would contain a big list of traits and say "a god must have the majority of these." Like, if a being was literally omniscient and omnipotent, as opposed to merely very powerful, it might be reasonable to call them a god even if they can't grant their followers an afterlife or hear prayers. But the converse is also true; a being that can hear prayers and grant an afterlife might reasonably be called a god even if their power is 'merely' on par with that of the greatest mortal magicians to ever live.
"Ability to travel to other dimensions within this plane of existence, and/or to other planes of existence" is a trait we might reasonably add to the list of "things gods can do, that set them above mortals, because while a mortal MIGHT be able to do one of these if they really tried, it takes a god to be able to do a whole bunch of them."
Well, we could simply note that we have these abilities. Conceptual immunity to fire being an obvious example; taking the Daenerys approach to demonstrating our special standing has its merits.
- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X] Skip ahead and ask him what would fit his definition of divinity.
- Location
- Germany
Wrong. You make a non-aggression pact, like their council is doing right now.
And really, trying to "take down" a friendly immortal would be incredibly stupid. They are immortal. Even if you kill their body, they'll come back and take vengeance. And since they were friendly, they wouldn't have been a threat in the first place had you left them alone.
BTW, if you want to be scrupulous, calling ourselves a goddess would count as a lie as well. We are a godling and will become a goddess once we gain worshippers. It's a lie that turns into truth.
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Precise wording, I approve.
past
Wait, then what do Black mages wear? @Alivaril?
I'm not sure that he has a clear definition either.
And besides, do we need to be on the attack here?
Many spiritual beings are able to exploit worship, as noted by Sigurd. Do they count as gods (or, to be precise, godlings)?
Technically, we can demonstrate the timestop in a way for him to see. It's just that it would be such a hassle to the point of being impractical.
I highly doubt they can. Gods ≠ Planeswalkers (though, whether the latter is a subset of the former is a different matter).
If we want to be honest, we should answer with something like
[] Give a disclaimer that you are new to godhood, but you have been informed by different sources that you are, indeed, a god.
- [] Summarize what you know about gods.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So does the TSAB.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That's kind of my point. The best non-combative way to engage with his argument is to ask him to clarify his terms. This gives us information about what he thinks and feels, potentially suggests a way to address his doubts, and avoids making him feel as though we are trying to intimidate or overawe him, which probably wouldn't work anyway if he's the kind of guy who has the balls to walk up to a self-proclaimed goddess and dispute her divinity.
Given approval voting I would go for this. It'd probably throw Terry for a flying loop to have Jade go "well, people kept telling me was until I got convinced," what with him being used to arrogant super-wizards proclaiming their divinity.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
From the limited viewpoint of a mortal there isn't a difference.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, there kind of can be. Urza is staggeringly powerful and can hop between planes, but that doesn't mean you go to heaven for worshipping him properly or that he can hear your prayers or care about them.
Yes. No ONE thing on the list is necessarily beyond mortals who have the right equipment. It's the package deal with gives a credible claim to divinity.
Like, a bunch of mortals on a tech-savvy plane could create some kind of computer upload "afterlife." OR a different bunch could create interdimensional jump drives. OR a different bunch could perfect some very specific magical ceremony that granted their king absolute conceptual immunity to, oh, darkness. OR this. OR that. But the 'package deal' includes many things that mortals cannot do without elaborate contrivances (that we don't need), AND some things that mortals cannot do at all, even with contrivances.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
Gods have a specific set of abilities, generally stemming from conceptual/instinctual raw power. Planeswalkers have an almost completely different set of abilities, which tends to stem more from an absurd level of mastery of a specific type of magic (which, while in part is instinctual, there is still a much more intellectual bend to it). Arguably, if Jade were just a planeswalker, she would be in the same ballpark as a Magi. If she were just a goddess, she'd be in the same ballpark as Solomon. Since she's both, she's in a completely different league altogether.
Nixeu
Lord of Madness, Harbinger of Llamas
- Location
- Your nightmares.
I don't think the distances would actually make it impossible for it to have been a curtsy, since Magnostadt attracts mages from all over. A thousand klicks also isn't that far, either, on the geographical scale. Biking from Florida to Maine is about 3000 klicks. But if mom's that confident he's a guy...
...Okay, I'll admit this is one of those deductive, intuitive leaps that can often be wrong, but maybe he's a clone, like Titus from the original manga? Scherazade, a Magi in the original manga, made clones from pieces of her body, and gave them pieces of her consciousness, as well. That might mean they'd try to use female manners unconsciously, even if they're guys, just becauas they're drawing on her experience. And Scherazade was around 200, so it could be an archiac piece of manners from long ago.
It certainly explains where he got the guts to confront us from. While Titus wasn't quite the equal of a Magi, clones made in the way he was are still really damn skilled mages. And I can't imagine the clone of Magi would be easily impressed by feats of high magical power or skill, since they were born by a feat of high magic.
It's...interesting that he's Red, if so, since White matches Scherazade well, and Red matches Aladdin to a "T". Might indicate that Alivaril played around with things, swapped personalities and colors, or just made brand new characters to fill similar roles.
...Except that's pretty much what several canon Magi feel they are. In this world even more than the canon one, I would think, since they don't even summon and get rid of Dungeon entrances, they can just move them around.
...You do know what omnipotent means, right? "Can't" usually doesn't apply to the actions of something omnipotent.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Also omnipotent is self contradictory.
While it may be reasonable to call omnipotent beings gods, it would be poor terminology. You would have to invent a different term just to describe these "omni-beings", just a there is a term "godling" for potential gods.
But you are advocating for the attack. Prompting him to explain his PoV and then arguing against it puts him on defensive.That's kind of my point. The best non-combative way to engage with his argument is to ask him to clarify his terms. This gives us information about what he thinks and feels, potentially suggests a way to address his doubts, and avoids making him feel as though we are trying to intimidate or overawe him, which probably wouldn't work anyway if he's the kind of guy who has the balls to walk up to a self-proclaimed goddess and dispute her divinity.
As for him having the balls, it's likely due to not presenting ourselves as a thunder-and-lightning kind of goddess. Which is a good sign.
Generally, one material dimesion per plane. So, while your god won't be able to take you to entirely new places, your planeswalker will be.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Treating it as a factual question also does that. We're not claiming to be more powerful than Solomon, we're claiming to be a thing that can receive prayers and sleep comfortably in lava. Most of what makes us dangerous is incidental to our divinity.
Linker Core mages don't need to build anything, it's just easier if they do.
And that would be an ongoing magical effect applied to the king, not a feature of the king.
You're treating this like a philosophical debate like the Plato chicken story when it's not. "God" already has an established definition in-setting, it applies to Jade, and if he's not satisfied with that then he's wrong.