I think a problem here is that these are both 10-part options, and we find out what they do, more or less, at the half-way point, and can build up both of them, at least to half way, before they hit some sort of diminishing returns or something to stop us from getting both. These options don't cover much, because they are only a fifth of an action. A very big action, but it still presents as a partial action with bits missing.
Hold It In (RWBY/Transistor)
- Thread starter Prok
- Start date
- Crossover
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
For what it's worth, @Prok , I'd very strongly advise you not to re-write.
Partially because I think that this is a legitimately interesting conundrum that would come up in-character and thus don't see it as something that needs revision, but more pertinently because in my years on this website I can't think of a single quest that's done a retcon like that and come out better for it.
Rewrites are killer on writing motivation (because you're dwelling on a " " "mistake" " " and forcing yourself to change plans), and they're killer on audience engagement (because people are less interested in seeing a rehash of events they've already read). That's not a good combination.
Partially because I think that this is a legitimately interesting conundrum that would come up in-character and thus don't see it as something that needs revision, but more pertinently because in my years on this website I can't think of a single quest that's done a retcon like that and come out better for it.
Rewrites are killer on writing motivation (because you're dwelling on a " " "mistake" " " and forcing yourself to change plans), and they're killer on audience engagement (because people are less interested in seeing a rehash of events they've already read). That's not a good combination.
- Location
- Southern USA
Im personally in agreement with Redshirt. I like where this story is going, I like the arguments both in and out of story about souls and AI, and I like the fact that the Transistor getting a soul isnt a guranteed good ending.
Kind sad I missed the vote yesterday, but I was in the wilderness going to war with nature (fuck bamboo and its ability to be a literal wall) but honestly Im just enjoying being here.
This story is amazing.
Kind sad I missed the vote yesterday, but I was in the wilderness going to war with nature (fuck bamboo and its ability to be a literal wall) but honestly Im just enjoying being here.
This story is amazing.
Tassadar
The Overlord of Cakes & Toucans!
Yes, aren't both path are suppose to be equal? So there are many strengths tied to the other, that or many weaknesses tied to the ensouled route.
- Location
- U.S.
I mean, the issue is that they kind of aren't.(no idea about Penny, in the show she's supposed to be one, though it really doesn't make much sense considering they managed to resurrect her)
For example, That jealous bit that one of them plays? About other weapons? They don't actually care. The emulation equation went "Jaune would find it funny and relieve his stress" so they did it. The Transistor is incapable of caring. Without using Sysadmin Priviliges, if I remember how it was programmed correctly, there is no situation in which it'd willingly let Jaune die.
Jaune could become a monster. Jaune could hate them. Jaune could try to abuse them. Jaune could actually truly be locked into a worse than death situation, assuming he didn't set up orders for that. But no matter what happens, there is literally nothing he or anyone else can do that will result in them letting him die, because that's what they are programmed to do(they can fuck up in a way that results in his death, and they kind of have to be able to or they wouldn't be able to function at all). If they had to turn the rest of reality into an abattoir they would. if they had to turn it into Commorragh, and Jaune didn't have limitations to avoid that, they would. They wouldn't feel guilt. They might pretend to have guilt for Jaune, or they wouldn't if he turned into that kind of monster.
For example, say you were a sociopath and a con artist. And you were scamming a person at a funeral. You create a persona, that you then act out. The Persona can act sad, without you caring one bit .(tbf, there are issues with how our brains work that make this difficult. we can still fake emotions, but do it consistently and you might start changing) The Persona isn't actually a real person. Same thing with the chatbot.
When the process went "racism doesn't make sense" it wasn't making a value judgement. It was going "this is not a logical behavioural action". If Jaune was the type to enjoy it, They'd have no issue whatsoever doing whatever Jaune wanted it to.
The Transistor and the Process are machines that do whatever Jaune wants. They are as moral as he wishes them to be, and pretend at emotional states to fill their role for Jaunes desires. Oddly enough, Jaune probably has a better grasp on that than we do, because he doesn't anthropomorphize them as much. Partly due to coding them and partly due to soul bias.
At least, I think that's what Proks trying to get across. But lets look back to what Luden said were the requirements of gaining a soul. Interpreted one way, the requirements is to experience reality as a person. Literally the requirements of gaining a soul for the transistor from this perspective is to become a person.
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The only reason why permanently and irreversibly internalizing the emotional sensory existence functions into the cognition of the self is necessary for a soul to form is because a soul is, inextricably, an external-internal interface between you and the universe.
AKA, the n-dimensional universe is a feedback loop of chaotic systems, therefore in order to operate at an n-dimensional level, you need to uniformly participate in all n dimensions, which is impossible to manually program, therefore you must let the universe do the programming for you
The goal is to induce a parthenogenesis of the universe's n-dimensional chaotic feedback loop into an isolated system.
This births the soul.
The complexity of an AI that can fully pass as having full personhood does not require n-dimensional interface functionality, merely x+1 dimensional interface functionality, where x equals the number of physical and virtual dimensions of operation observable by the user, then +1 beyond that observable range to provide the emulation of the natural interference of operating under the influence of higher order chaotic feedback.
EDIT: magic and conceptual attacks are n-dimensional.
AKA, the n-dimensional universe is a feedback loop of chaotic systems, therefore in order to operate at an n-dimensional level, you need to uniformly participate in all n dimensions, which is impossible to manually program, therefore you must let the universe do the programming for you
The goal is to induce a parthenogenesis of the universe's n-dimensional chaotic feedback loop into an isolated system.
This births the soul.
The complexity of an AI that can fully pass as having full personhood does not require n-dimensional interface functionality, merely x+1 dimensional interface functionality, where x equals the number of physical and virtual dimensions of operation observable by the user, then +1 beyond that observable range to provide the emulation of the natural interference of operating under the influence of higher order chaotic feedback.
EDIT: magic and conceptual attacks are n-dimensional.
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- Location
- A hole full of snakes.
I think this is the case, to a degree. I also think that it isn't a good thing, for the story. Going back and rereading the transistor's characterization and seeing it express emotions but then going "well yes, but actually no, it didn't feel any of that and none of it's characterization matters since it will always change to Jaune's whims without complaint" really just, sucks. It doesn't feel good, and it doesn't help the story - all it does is solve this philosophical debate. And, quite frankly, if Jaune suddenly started kicking puppies I feel like the transistor's human emulator might have had some complaints before it capitulated, even if it followed Jaune anyway, if for no other reason than because doing so would be bad for Jaune in the end, if it got discovered.
Personally, I'm choosing to think of it like the question of whether viruses are alive or not. By our definitions, no they aren't, but our definitions are fairly arbitrary. A theoretical alien race might define life as any self-propagating pattern of atoms, and their definition wouldn't be more or less wrong than ours, but by that definition viruses are alive.
Similarly, sapience is an arbitrary divide and the transistor might fit it by some definitions. In fact, it sounds like it isn't by remnant humanity's definition, but reasonably could be by ours, so we are the theoretical aliens. But for both viruses and the transistor, they are simultaneously more similar to the other side - life or sapience - than to the side they've been put on, while also lacking distinct and important qualities that make them similar enough to properly behave like living or sapient things.
Drawing a hard line between sapience and non-sapience and treating it as a binary is illogical, because it's really a gradient. The transistor, for the sake of the story, should really be functionally a character, and so it has to be somewhat sapient, and we're probably going to treat it that way no matter what. But it's also not a proper, healthy, independently-functioning being, so both it and others don't think it's really up to the same degree of "real" as a person.
Tl;dr, the transistor is real-ish enough that whether it gets a soul or not we're going to treat it like a person, so most of this philosophical argument is moot. The real deal here is mostly just whether a soul would be good for the transistor, and we'll figure that out probably when we get to level 5+ in both colors of ???.
Honestly, the topic I really want to consider is how Penny (or maybe Pietto) is going to react and behave if we give the transistor a soul. Will they want us to upgrade Penny into independent, real-soulitude? Would that even be possible? We might want to share some robot-gaining-soul insights if we do end up giving the transistor souls. Honestly, Penny is getting the short end of the stick in this, since she's being relegated to "not real" while also not having some magical asshole virus show her what it's like to be born. I wanna help her as much as we can.
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The issue is that a lot of things that can be said about The Transistor can also be said about humans.
To "care" is important to humans, but that is because their minds are configured to function based on a "care" dynamic. "Caring" is not actually real. It doesn't have any direct expression in the world, it cannot exist independently, it has no absolute qualities... it can only exist as a simulation...
Then we add souls into the mix. The Transistor proves that a complex largely-independent decision-making device can exist. Human minds perform that function. If all that was removed with the soul was the difference between those, then the victims would still possess appreciable decision-making ability. Given that destruction of the soul results in destruction of the mind, we can pretty much assume that it is a dependency relationship. Unfortunately, this tells us nothing about what the soul actually does, beyond that it can interact (and potentially only indirectly at that) with a mind, because the mind is obviously configured specifically to require a soul, thus its removal is catastrophic due to the mind's dependency, rather than what is actually added. It would be like a metal knife with a wooden handle, and a ceramic knife. Take away the metal, and the one knife stops working, while the other never had metal to begin with. To find out what metal actually does, we need to compare how the knives function. Unfortunately, The Transistor and humans have different architecture, so any differences could be soul-based, or they could be form-based. To compare the knives, one would want the knives to be identical outside of materials. To construct a "blade" from "ceramic" that is identical to the "metal" one, then one would need to be able to observe the shape of the metal and how it fits with the wood, but when the metal is a soul, this is difficult.
Building a soulless Penny might be informative, but there are ethical concerns...
The Remnant mind might be entirely hosted on the soul. The idea of a computer uploading its mind into a soul is fun.
It is contentious, but... Humans are not so aware of their minds. There is an extent to which consciousness is only a projection of the mind, and can be turned off as a matter of convenience. Sleep is the obvious candidate, but more relevant is being "in the zone" for a non-mental task or simple mental task. How much of the sort of thought that is supposed to separate humans from animals actually occurs while one is lost amidst loud music and wild dancing? What of when one is excersicing? Could you run a marathon and maintain awareness of your thoughts for the entire duration? Consciousness is just a subset of the whole human mind.
To "care" is important to humans, but that is because their minds are configured to function based on a "care" dynamic. "Caring" is not actually real. It doesn't have any direct expression in the world, it cannot exist independently, it has no absolute qualities... it can only exist as a simulation...
Humans are very much capable of being obsessive and ignoring their own problems. With sufficient knowledge of and ability to manipulate the brain, someone could almost certainly convert a human brain to be exactly that obsessed. People trapped in abusive relationships, desperate addicts, suicide-bombers, football-hooligans... are not aliens, they are humans. Humans tend to have more than one single obsession. To get a common human to be that committed to a single goal, it would require many of their preferences to be contingent upon that single goal, or to catch them in a compromised mind-state, but some humans have simple passions, and if their passion is focused upon a single point...
Then we add souls into the mix. The Transistor proves that a complex largely-independent decision-making device can exist. Human minds perform that function. If all that was removed with the soul was the difference between those, then the victims would still possess appreciable decision-making ability. Given that destruction of the soul results in destruction of the mind, we can pretty much assume that it is a dependency relationship. Unfortunately, this tells us nothing about what the soul actually does, beyond that it can interact (and potentially only indirectly at that) with a mind, because the mind is obviously configured specifically to require a soul, thus its removal is catastrophic due to the mind's dependency, rather than what is actually added. It would be like a metal knife with a wooden handle, and a ceramic knife. Take away the metal, and the one knife stops working, while the other never had metal to begin with. To find out what metal actually does, we need to compare how the knives function. Unfortunately, The Transistor and humans have different architecture, so any differences could be soul-based, or they could be form-based. To compare the knives, one would want the knives to be identical outside of materials. To construct a "blade" from "ceramic" that is identical to the "metal" one, then one would need to be able to observe the shape of the metal and how it fits with the wood, but when the metal is a soul, this is difficult.
Building a soulless Penny might be informative, but there are ethical concerns...
The Remnant mind might be entirely hosted on the soul. The idea of a computer uploading its mind into a soul is fun.
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THatWhichWillBe
The Squiddly One
- Location
- In The Darkened Deep
TBF, for Penny, Ludens has had no contact with her whatsoever, so anything he says about her should be taken with about five thousand suns worth of salt. For all we know she actually has the biggest Soul, ever, and is the only Real Person in remnant and everyone else is the P-zombie.
- Pronouns
- He
[X] "What causes the soul to exist in some things, but not others?" [???: +1]
- Location
- U.S.
That's the same thing. You're just talking about simulation theory, brute forcing the creation of a soul through sheer computational capacity. Which might not be possible.(it depends on how much processing power it takes to simulate a soul. The process' processing power is asymptotic to infinity, not actually infinite.)
And considering Luden's advice, it's not so much a question of figuring how to make a soul so much as alchemically summoning it. Create the conditions for which a soul will quicken, and then it links up and fuses to the computation engine that called it up.
If you just want it to pass as a person that's an entirely different issue. That's the actual definition of a p-zombie. A wooden duck is not a duck, and a chatbot is not the same thing as a person. This is the transistor as is. Mind, the transistor is also already straight up smarter than a person. more computational capability isn't going to do anything. The simulated Transistor person you're talking about is manifestly different from the transistor we have, though it would be nigh impossiblle to tell the difference from the outside.
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You have convinced me!
[X] "What causes the soul to exist in some things, but not others?"
Jaune doesn't need to worry about the quality of existence without a soul, if he gains an understanding of summoning a replacement soul at will!
ADeshantis
King on the Chromium Throne
- Location
- United states
Holy balls I go out in the woods for three days
Alright so
The thread needs to remember while we're exploring this that we don't have all the information; we're literally building up both our knowledge on the topics at hand and our opinions on them in lock step.
Be open to considering both viewpoints, seek out any relevant information, but don't be afraid to decide once you have that information.
Also someone go help Prok with his Christmas Tree mimic.
Alright so
The thread needs to remember while we're exploring this that we don't have all the information; we're literally building up both our knowledge on the topics at hand and our opinions on them in lock step.
Be open to considering both viewpoints, seek out any relevant information, but don't be afraid to decide once you have that information.
Also someone go help Prok with his Christmas Tree mimic.
- Location
- Southern USA
Well I'm sufficiently terrified.
Mimics. Absolutely the scariest thing to ever come out of fantasy. Reach in for a present and boom, you've lost an arm.
What would a christmas tree mimic look like, even?
- Location
- A hole full of snakes.
Yep, we pretty much should just wait until we're at 5 in both ???s before we try to dig into the philosophy much more - we just don't have the info to make an informed decision, yet. It might still come up in the talk with Ozpin, though, so I don't think we're quite out of the philosophy woods yet.
Nice.
A christmas tree... most of the time...
ADeshantis
King on the Chromium Throne
- Location
- United states
The teeth come out of the bottom row of branches and the tree skirt, obviously.
- Location
- A hole full of snakes.
The baubles are eyes, and branches stretch out for appendages.
Some D&D DM around here is getting diabolical ideas for a Christmas themed oneshot.
- Location
- Southern USA
Only if Santa is the final boss. Reskinned Orcus, perhaps?
Prok
Go play Star Fetchers
- Location
- Scotland
Two pets gone in two weeks. Jesus Christ, I'm tired.
So, uh... yeah. Two weeks ago, I had to put my dog down, a dog I've had and loved dearly since I was five, and just now, like, literally, less than ten minutes ago, my other budgie died. He's in gauze, for the moment, I'm going to have to wait for it to thaw out tomorrow before I can bury him. Either way, yeah, I don't know when the update will actually be up, because, I've got a lot of shit to deal with, apparently, god forbid I actually have a moment of peace.
Happy 2021.
So, uh... yeah. Two weeks ago, I had to put my dog down, a dog I've had and loved dearly since I was five, and just now, like, literally, less than ten minutes ago, my other budgie died. He's in gauze, for the moment, I'm going to have to wait for it to thaw out tomorrow before I can bury him. Either way, yeah, I don't know when the update will actually be up, because, I've got a lot of shit to deal with, apparently, god forbid I actually have a moment of peace.
Happy 2021.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
God. That's awful. I've grown up with dogs, so I know how enormous a loss that is. Take your time.
Rest in peace, Max and Grue.
- Pronouns
- He
I am sorry to hear of your loss. 2020 really was not the best. Hopefully, things will shine in 2021.
Hope you are well just had to bury one of our dogs today too
Found her dead in her pen and just went and dug it up right after
It never gets easier but it does become a less bittersweet thing as time goes on than just pain as you can remember the good things more
Take it from me i lose alot of dogs since i run a dog sanctuary for dying and crippled dogs and we lose alot
As time goes on try talking about funny or happy times you had with them to help keep the memories alive
Damn dude, I'm sorry to hear that. It's never easy to deal with the loss of a loved one but try to save some pictures of them from happy times. Having something good to look back on helped me out in the past
And same as everyone else, take whatever time you need, this story comes second behind your well being
And same as everyone else, take whatever time you need, this story comes second behind your well being
- Location
- Mt. Holly, North Carolina
Take any time you need, we'll still be here. As everyone else has mentioned, we can wait for you to finish grieving before writing.