Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Simon_Jester]

The 3 options for Anvil's corpse are frankly lackluster: minor combat boost to Cores, boosting our already great battlefield prowess, or upgrading the Beast Tide Trap for a THIRD time. None of these are optimal, and the long-term plan has been to save Anvil's corpse made of Nascent Metal for building a Nascent Flying Fortress (called the WTF).

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I'm not saying no to this, but just wondering: why can't we do it already?

 

[Resonant]

I'm not saying no to this, but just wondering: why can't we do it already?

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We need to buy the Fortress-Mount legacy, which is part of this turn's plan. We've been saving up Shadow Key points and didn't spend them last turn, in case it could unlock some special options for Manuel for the Trials (alongside the 4 million word Shadow Boon).

 

[TehChron]

I'm not saying no to this, but just wondering: why can't we do it already?

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We need the Fortress Mounts to even see what options exist for such a fortification. And mounting weapons made from Weeping Anvil onto it make their strategic relevance take on an entirely new level of application

 

[Resonant]

Still even with that being kept in mind the numbers are grimm. We are going to need Manuel to being cunning. This was a very bad time to have memory lose.

I feel like our best move would be not to go for kills. Play defensive and promote paranoia as we drag things out.

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If you're talking about the planned WTF raid on the Devil Bees, that's tentatively scheduled for Turn 18 (Year 340) at the earliest, when Cannibal's Desert Ban expires, so Manuel's memories would be fully recovered.

And the main point of the WTF raid isn't to kill Nascents anyway, it's to fly around Devil Bee territory wrecking shit and only fighting battles inside/around the pimped out Nascent Flying Fortress, stalemating the enemy Nascents until we find an opportunity to invoke the Implacable Chant and ruin their territory. It's less about fighting enemy Nascents head-on, more like a car chase in an armored tank

 

[uri]

if the Pass reopens quickly, it will go back to Low Prices. If the Pass remains closed, it will default to High Prices. In this case, we want to hedge our bets and play conservative by going with High Prices,

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Why? we're reaching the end game here, our casualties later matter less than our casualties now.

Were having a war in yuan right this turn and are investing a lot in it, investing a little more to one of the most important wars we'll have for r a better outcome is something we want to do. especially when the consequences for that choice can be delayed or nullified by various means.

The 3 options for Anvil's corpse are frankly lackluster:

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They may be lackluster but lackluster doesn't mean ineffective and holding out for a better bonus later runs the risk of wasting an opportunity.

None of these are optimal, and the long-term plan has been to save Anvil's corpse made of Nascent Metal for building a Nascent Flying Fortress (called the WTF).

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I've been seeing a lot about this supposed nascent soul doom fortress but I've mostly seen a lot of hype and little in the way of it being worth that hype.

Like sure a giant fortress of destruction that can stand up to nascent souls and carry all of our core formations elders sounds awesome, and would probably be very helpful.

But even with the corpse to me it seem people are really overestimating how much such kind of fortress is useful.

To recap: we made a Nascent Oath to defend the Yuan Clan and let the Yuan Nascent recover, so we're bound to send our Nascents to help.

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Sure but that doesn't mean we need to send Manual.

The invasion consists of Ma Emperor (Mid Nascent) and some support from Noble Knowledge who have 1 Mid + 2 Early Nascent. Noble Knowledge can send 1-2 Early, so we need to counter 1 Mid and 1-2 Early.

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Okey so this? this is an argument to sending everyone and I mean everyone not just manual and one another but everyone.

Because I fucking guarantee you, best case scenario sending Manual there would see him get further injured.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Why? we're reaching the end game here, our casualties later matter less than our casualties now.

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From the Clan's perspective I'm not at all sure that we're anywhere near our endgame.

It seems to me that strategically, we're still in that very tricky phase where one or two significant rounds of bad luck could turn us from "resurgent power that was nearly destroyed but has bounced back from the brink in the past 300 years" to "fatally overextended flash in the pan."

Like sure a giant fortress of destruction that can stand up to nascent souls and carry all of our core formations elders sounds awesome, and would probably be very helpful.

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I see what you mean about the overrating.

After all, it might be a bit awkward to try and put all the Core Formation Elders in the fortress.

What are the enemy's Core Formation Elders doing while the crew of the flying fortress are on their aerial road trip?

 

[Resonant]

Why? we're reaching the end game here, our casualties later matter less than our casualties now.

Were having a war in yuan right this turn and are investing a lot in it, investing a little more to one of the most important wars we'll have for r a better outcome is something we want to do. especially when the consequences for that choice can be delayed or nullified by various means.

They may be lackluster but lackluster doesn't mean ineffective and holding out for a better bonus later runs the risk of wasting an opportunity.

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We are nowhere near the end game, which is Turn 25-30 (Year 500-600) when the Favored starts hitting Nascent Soul and the projected schedule for our Single Pillar Kings to ascend to Heaven-Seizer. Before that point, we still have major humps like Turn 18 (Year 340) when Old Cannibal's desert ban expires, or Turn 20 (Year 380) when the Trials will hit with 4-5 times severity since we cock-blocked them twice.

The Yuan War by comparison is not as high of a priority when considering the stacked deck we've already made it, with the multiple Nascent-grade traps, the Stone Spear, Xinya's marriage boost, Yuan's active defenses, 2 turns worth of Missions, defensive terrain/chokepoints, etc.

There is a point where we hit diminishing returns for buffing the Yuan with lackluster upgrades, and this is it. Cheap Supplies doesn't affect the Nascent equation, and the invading mook army will already slam into a wall from our 2 Nascent traps enforcing complete area denial. It would be incredibly wasteful to use Anvil's corpse for sub-Nascent marginal boosts like "minor combat boost for Cores", etc.

If you're so concerned about needing these upgrades, try outlining how and why they'd be worth picking in the context of our existing invasion prep, instead of generic complaints with little substance, otherwise it's not much different to baseless fearmongering. Explain your calculations, because these upgrades aren't necessary from my analysis.

Okey so this? this is an argument to sending everyone and I mean everyone not just manual and one another but everyone.

Because I fucking guarantee you, best case scenario sending Manual there would see him get further injured.

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It's like you completely disregard Manuel's ambush specialty and our complete tactical/information supremacy over the enemy that will let us massively punch up against uncoordinated enemy Nascents, our existing prep with the 2 Nascent traps, etc. Do you believe it'll play out like a fair battle in an open field with every Nascent aware of each other's positions, duking it out directly?

Regardless, we can't send everyone to Yuan since we need at least Kleisthenes to open Diplomacy with the Blood Oaks (mandatory). We've ignored them for the last 3-4 turns and literally cannot put it off anymore after Manuel found out they made a secret deal with the NDA - we need to handle that. Which leaves just Casia, who is the weakest Nascent and unsuited to combat - definitely not sending her to Yuan either.

I've been seeing a lot about this supposed nascent soul doom fortress but I've mostly seen a lot of hype and little in the way of it being worth that hype.

Like sure a giant fortress of destruction that can stand up to nascent souls and carry all of our core formations elders sounds awesome, and would probably be very helpful.

But even with the corpse to me it seem people are really overestimating how much such kind of fortress is useful.

Click to shrink...

After all, it might be a bit awkward to try and put all the Core Formation Elders in the fortress.

What are the enemy's Core Formation Elders doing while the crew of the flying fortress are on their aerial road trip?

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We've had a previous example for a Flying Fortress suggested by Destasia, so this isn't some far-fetched idea. Now imagine Anvil's corpse + Fortress-Mount + Chrysocolla Paints + Glass Spear Array + Plot Coupons + Combat Formation + Jingshen Cannons + Poison Aura + Implacable Chant + Heaven's Shadow (cloaking). It's really not that hard to imagine a Nascent-grade Flying Fortress.

And we don't need all the Core Elders in the fortress, just the 100 Cores and their legions for the Early Nascent formation, while the leftover defends the homeland (we've got 105 Cores this turn, growing on average at a rate of 10-15 per turn).

[ ] Build the Furious Owl Flying War Palace (16 Wealth)

"Archegetes, I have this sliver of degraded Nascent Will. Completely useless. But then, I thought, it's Owl will, you know. If I make it mad enough, it'll regain some of its power. Owls fly, you know. We then stuff it into a big castle, power it with enough Spirit Stones to blot out the sun, and we have our very own flying fortress! I know, I know, it'd take all the money we have, but you can see I already took off the big cannon, and the part where we mount you as a figurehead to frighten our foes! Oh? Uses? I guess you could transport a pair of Legions wherever you wanted them to go at high speed, and use the Owl Will to recollect them when you were done. Rapid deployment and retreat, that sort of thing."

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[Immenotyou]

[ ] Build the Furious Owl Flying War Palace (16 Wealth)

This was 16 budget in the year 160. Or 16 million stavraton. currently 1 budget is worth 10 million stavraton.

 

[uri]

We are nowhere near the end game, which is Turn 25-30 (Year 500-600) when the Favored starts hitting Nascent Soul and the projected schedule for our Single Pillar Kings to ascend to Heaven-Seizer. Before that point, we still have major humps like Turn 18 (Year 340) when Old Cannibal's desert ban expires, or Turn 20 (Year 380) when the Trials will hit with 4-5 times severity since we cock-blocked them twice.

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So were late mid game then. It doesn't actually have anything to do with my argument that less casualties now and more later is better than more casualties now and less later when the later part can be then changed by our actions.

If you're so concerned about needing these upgrades, try outlining how and why they'd be worth picking in the context of our existing invasion prep, instead of generic complaints with little substance, otherwise it's not much different to baseless fearmongering.

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I think the beast tide trap is our best option get it raid in force the devil bees in one of the next few turns and try to use it to wound/kill/waste lifesaving treasures of as many of their nascent as we can.

Or maybe take it and use it when old cannibal begins his pass invasion to stymie that.

The problem with waiting though is it leaves that card out of our sleave so we'll not get the opportunity to use it.

Which isn't a problem if it's saved for something special but a giant fortress of doom isn't that. Especially when I hear some of the proposed uses for such a fortress.

Do you believe it'll play out like a fair battle in an open field with every Nascent aware of each other's positions, duking it out directly?

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No, no I do not but manual is injured and not physically but mentally and nascent souls have treasures and precautions against sudden ambushes they might not always work but they have them.

You seeing this battle as already being concluded in our favor, where their could be half a dozen tricks up the invading nascent souls sleaves.

I would be a lot less worried if he wasn't injured or if we sent everyone.

But your sending manual to a risky mission like hell here's what the QM has to offer.

From a gameplay perspective you can give him any task you like, he'll just underperform a bit because he's wounded - and if it's a dangerous task he risks more serious injury.

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I don't like the words underperform and nascent combat that a fucking recipe for disaster.

ow imagine Anvil's corpse + Fortress-Mount + Chrysocolla Paints + Glass Spear Array + Plot Coupons + Combat Formation + Jingshen Cannons + Poison Aura + Implacable Chant + Heaven's Shadow (cloaking).

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That seems like a lot of resources poured into something that is mostly there to safely carry around a formation of cores.

Also, the fortress you've compared to costs 16 fucking purchases when they were each worth more I doubt it would be that better even with all the shit you want to put on it.

Now in an attempt to add a competitor this here is my plan its smellier but also very different for one all four of our nascent souls go to yuan to ensure a good result (that won't get manual further injured) and as an added bonus it will give our new nascent souls experience in nascent scale combat.

I'm also adding the pill forge as I'm setting the price low and enhancing the beast tide trap.

And I'm not sure yet on the legacies I'm thinking either the insignia and a two point or the implacable chant.
[] Draft plan 1.
-[ ] Set Prices Low - Letting the Legions have their supplies now will make the Yuan War easier. However, if the Pass cannot be reopened effectively the Clan will start to suffer more casualties in battle.
-[ ] Enhance the Beast Tide Trap more. Put all your eggs in the scariest basket and hope the thread uses it at the right moment.
-[ ] Fortifying (Yuan) - Spend Clan manpower and soldiers to build new fortifications against outside enemies. New Arrays, help train new cultivators in lesser Formations to defend their lands, and so on. Will also strengthen a vassal or ally if chosen, and increase relations with them. Increases defenses in the chosen territory, ally, or vassal.
-[ ] Manuel - Hunt An Enemy (Yuan Clan Invasion Nascents) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
-[ ] Kleisthenes - Hunt An Enemy (Yuan Clan Invasion Nascents) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
-[ ] Xinya - Hunt An Enemy (Yuan Clan Invasion Nascents) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
-[ ] Casia - Hunt An Enemy (Yuan Clan Invasion Nascents) - Why not? Hunt down enemies, see if you can kill someone. Usually used against an opposing Nascent Soul. Potentially very dangerous.
-[ ] The Pill Forges (Minor Purchase - 1 Purchase)
-[ ] Forge a Wedding Ring (Major Purchase - 2 Purchases)

 

[Resonant]

I think the beast tide trap is our best option get it raid in force the devil bees in one of the next few turns and try to use it to wound/kill/waste lifesaving treasures of as many of their nascent as we can.

Or maybe take it and use it when old cannibal begins his pass invasion to stymie that.

The problem with waiting though is it leaves that card out of our sleave so we'll not get the opportunity to use it.

Which isn't a problem if it's saved for something special but a giant fortress of doom isn't that. Especially when I hear some of the proposed uses for such a fortress.

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... you should really double check all your assumptions going into your analysis, this is yet another misunderstanding on your part: the Beast Tide Trap is a Yuan Clan defensive array... it can only be used in the Yuan Clan, to defend the Yuan Clan. Not something we can just pick up and activate anywhere.

No, no I do not but manual is injured and not physically but mentally and nascent souls have treasures and precautions against sudden ambushes they might not always work but they have them.

You seeing this battle as already being concluded in our favor, where their could be half a dozen tricks up the invading nascent souls sleaves.

I would be a lot less worried if he wasn't injured or if we sent everyone.

But your sending manual to a risky mission like hell here's what the QM has to offer.

I don't like the words underperform and nascent combat that a fucking recipe for disaster.

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Ignore all the "memory loss" which is just narrative fluff, the important mechanic is a flat debuff for his rolls which determines how things will be written. So Manuel has a Wounded penalty, offset by the massive bonus of the Stone Spear, Xinya's marriage boost, all of our prep and traps in Yuan Clan so far, etc. Resulting in an overall +bonus for Manuel's Rolls, despite the Wound.

"Nascent Souls have precautions" is an empty statement. "Anything we do has the potential to fail" doesn't mean it's likely considering Manuel's sheer experience in ambushes and the element of surprise. Nobody knows we're involved, they think we're recovering from the Trials. You're mono-focusing on one element (Manuel's Wounded) and ignoring all the bonuses we've stacked so far to make this Yuan War in our favor.

That seems like a lot of resources poured into something that is mostly there to safely carry around a formation of cores.

Also, the fortress you've compared to costs 16 fucking purchases when they were each worth more I doubt it would be that better even with all the shit you want to put on it.

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Lol what? A Flying Fortress that lets you safely invade enemy territory and equalize the Nascent battlefield is "mostly there to carry around Cores"? It seems like you're the one lacking the reading comprehension if that's what you take away from the idea.

And yet another fatal misunderstanding you've made - that "16 wealth" is from Turn 9 (Year 160) when they were worth far less than our current Purchases:
1 Purchase = 10 Wealth
16 Wealth = 1.6 Purchase

The post above yours literally spelled it out for you:

This was 16 budget in the year 160. Or 16 million stavraton. currently 1 budget is worth 10 million stavraton.

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Frankly, you're making a terrible job arguing for your case and I really suggest you go back and reread the quest before confidently making false claims.

 

[SeptimusMagisto]

[ ] Build the Furious Owl Flying War Palace (16 Wealth)

This was 16 budget in the year 160. Or 16 million stavraton. currently 1 budget is worth 10 million stavraton.

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Would be nice but the Nascent Owl Will has gone bad and Destacia has moved on.

 

[uri]

I think you should double check all your assumptions going into your analysis, because this is a major mistake: the Beast Tide Trap is a Yuan Clan defensive array... it can only be used in the Yuan Clan, to defend the Yuan Clan. Not something we can just pick up and activate anywhere lol.

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"Lastly, we enhance the Beast Tide Trap with the metal. We can put it wherever we like and probably call down three or four Nascent Beasts from Turtlebone Mountain if it's any of the powers bordering it.

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Do try to at least make sure your right when you're accusing someone of making a major mistake.

"Nascent Souls have precautions" is an empty statement. "Anything we do has the potential to fail" doesn't mean it's likely considering Manuel's sheer experience in ambushes and the element of surprise. Nobody knows we're involved, they think we're recovering from the Trials. You're mono-focusing on one element (Manuel's Wounded) and ignoring all the bonuses we've stacked so far to make this Yuan War in our favor.

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Its nots, not when the point im trying to say is things won't go entirely our way, the enemy get a vote we stacked the deck as hard as we can but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy gets a vote.

and you shouldn't forget the narrative because this memory problem is going to give us debufs in non-combat roles too and you know what is probably a none combat roll (at least initially)? Setting up an ambush.

Lol what? A Flying Fortress that lets you safely invade enemy territory and equalize the Nascent battlefield is "mostly there to carry around Cores"?

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But it can't, it can't do that, it might provide help but it doesn't give us the ability to safely invade old cannibal land.

And yet another fatal misunderstanding you've made - that "16 wealth" is from Turn 9 (Year 160) when they were worth far less than our current Purchases

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My bad then, we haven't used wealth in so long I just substituted it for purchases in my head.

The point still stands though that I think this fortress is way overpriced doesn't give us what you thing it dos and all the resources going into it could be used in so many better ways.

Frankly, you're making a terrible job arguing for your case and I really suggest you go back and reread the quest before confidently making false claims.

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You go fucking reread the quest.

 

[Immenotyou]

Would be nice but the Nascent Owl Will has gone bad and Destacia has moved on.

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I'm well aware? I was simply comparing budget then to now, to get an idea of how much the floor cost of a flying fortress would be (looks like minimum of 2)

 

[Resonant]

Do try to at least make sure your right when you're accusing someone of making a major mistake.

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Fair call, missed that it can be used on anything bordering Turtlebone Mountain, but that still doesn't mean we can use it on the Devil Bees like you suggested. At most it could be used to repel the Bee invasion on the Colossus Pass, which is something we want to happen so we can use it as an excuse to take it over from the Sorrowful Blacksmiths.

Its nots, not when the point im trying to say is things won't go entirely our way, the enemy get a vote we stacked the deck as hard as we can but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy gets a vote.

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So you agree that we've stacked the deck already and it's unnecessary to add more superfluous preparations, glad you've come around.

and you shouldn't forget the narrative because this memory problem is going to give us debufs in non-combat roles too and you know what is probably a none combat roll (at least initially)? Setting up an ambush.

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An ambush is a surprise attack carried out by people lying in wait in a concealed position.[1] Ambushes as a basic fighting tactic of soldiers or of criminals have been used consistently throughout history, from ancient to modern warfare.

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[uri]

So you agree that we've stacked the deck already and it's unnecessary to add more superfluous preparations, glad you've come around.

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Weve stacked the deck but that doesn't mean we'll win or that we cant stack it more with the new resources that came to our hands or just send more nascent souls.

Also a big part of an ambush success is from the surprise when the first time its spotted is when you have an arrow in your throat.

That mean hiding, and while manual is an excellent hider (perhaps even the bets in the region) his injury would mean he gets a malus to that.

But even if the ambush is successfully done, its rarely a kill on a peer and there is a distinct risk that Manul will get further injured in the fighting to follow.

 

[Resonant]

That mean hiding, and while manual is an excellent hider (perhaps even the bets in the region) his injury would mean he gets a malus to that.

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Bruh, ambushes is one of the default tactics for Nascent Soul combat - throughout the story it's emphasized how Nascents hide by default and try to lure their enemy into taking action first and ceding the initiative. It's so common to fake an injury and disappear to lure enemies into a fight. And you think he'll get a malus to hiding because somehow Manuel forgets to recover such basic tactics, or y'know... how to use his Dao of Darkness which covers both hiding/combat? Nonsense.

And this is ultimately irrelevant, mechanics wise Manuel's Wound gives a roll penalty to whatever action he does (including Combat), even if he recovers his combat memories in-story. That's literally how the Wound penalty works, there's no point arguing which type of actions will be penalized. It will be a flat roll penalty, offset by all the other bonuses we've stacked.

 

[uri]

throughout the story it's emphasized how Nascents hide by default and try to lure their enemy into taking action first and ceding the initiative.

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That's not ambushing that a kind of slow grinding war that seeks to remove as many of your opponent's defenses and tricks before you face them so you'll have the upper hand.

Its very fucking different then hiding and then surprise attacking.

And you think he'll get a malus to hiding because somehow Manuel forgets to recover such basic tactics

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Because he has a wound that's why he's going to have a malus to all of his rolls because he's wounded.

Sending him to face potently 3 nascent souls we know barley anything about with just another one on his side is asking him or the one we send with him to get injured and maybe even die.

You'll note that I don't objected to sending him at any circumstance just this one, hell my draft plan dos send him to fight with 3 other nascent souls on his side because we want the dice as weighted on our said as we can possibly get.

 

[Resonant]

That's not ambushing that a kind of slow grinding war that seeks to remove as many of your opponent's defenses and tricks before you face them so you'll have the upper hand.

Its very fucking different then hiding and then surprise attacking.

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Your starting conjecture: Manuel's hiding would suck because that's a non-combat skill/memory.
My response: Hiding is a basic skill in Nascent combat, whether it's ambushes or "slow baiting" as you put it.

This is a moot point, see below. But narratively, Manuel's hiding skills would not be affected in the narrative fluff.

Because he has a wound that's why he's going to have a malus to all of his rolls because he's wounded.

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Exactly, there is no distinction between "non-combat" vs "combat" rolls - Manuel's Wound gives a penalty to whatever action he does, which is offset by our preparations. Of those enemy Nascents, only 1 will be fighting to the death and risking injury, the nascents from Noble Knowledge have no inclination to fight us desperately - they've already won by acquiring Ma Clan's territory. When they are caught off-guard and the fighting turns serious, they'll cut their losses and leave Ma Emperor to his doomed fate. No skin off their back, no love lost since NKS isn't even Blood Path, unlikely to coordinate.

Try to visualize it: 3-4 Nascents invading ... against 2 Nascent traps + 2 defending Nascents + 2 more potential defenders (Yuan Lord, Kleisthenes). Manuel has free reign to play mind games and forcibly convince the NKS Nascents that its a lost cause, only Ma Emperor will be stuck.

 

[Simon_Jester]

It's like you completely disregard Manuel's ambush specialty and our complete tactical/information supremacy over the enemy that will let us massively punch up against uncoordinated enemy Nascents, our existing prep with the 2 Nascent traps, etc. Do you believe it'll play out like a fair battle in an open field with every Nascent aware of each other's positions, duking it out directly?

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Resonant, I think you may be overplaying the hand dealt to us here.

Sending Manuel out into a fighting mission is still going to expose him to risk. We were told this, quite directly, in the update we just saw. The problem is that he is 'Wounded' specifically in a way that undermines his ability to fight in his usual manner. It's his mind and memory that's been disrupted, not his ability to flex his muscles. As the update points out, it's bad to lose your mind and memory when your fighting style is designed around giving you benefits if you ambush someone constantly into activating your traps and tricks.

I don't have a full grasp on every contingency and possibility in play. I know this. I'm sorry if this is an outrage for me to bring up; you seem kind of irritated about it though I could be wrong about that.

And yet. And yet.

I think we really, really treat the in-game information that Manuel is weakened and wounded as a serious problem that we need to plan around? Like, plans that seem (to me, to my perception) to be all like "this changes nothing" worry me because I'm getting flashbacks to the captain of the Titanic reacting to an iceberg warning by saying "we're unsinkable, full speed ahead."

We've had a previous example for a Flying Fortress suggested by Destasia, so this isn't some far-fetched idea. Now imagine Anvil's corpse + Fortress-Mount + Chrysocolla Paints + Glass Spear Array + Plot Coupons + Combat Formation + Jingshen Cannons + Poison Aura + Implacable Chant + Heaven's Shadow (cloaking). It's really not that hard to imagine a Nascent-grade Flying Fortress.

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If you're suggesting that I'm unable to imagine such a fortress, that seems kind of rude. It sounds like you are thus suggesting.

If you're suggesting that I think such a fortress cannot exist, then you're misunderstanding me.

I was expressing a sincere curiosity as to why we can't do this already, because I had the mistaken impression that we had all we need, because I wasn't aware of the full shopping list of things that would need to go into the project.

And we don't need all the Core Elders in the fortress, just the 100 Cores and their legions for the Early Nascent formation, while the leftover defends the homeland (we've got 105 Cores this turn, growing on average at a rate of 10-15 per turn).

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Okay, but can you see how I might reasonably be concerned about the dangers of over-concentrating force in one place? Like, I'm asking, does this make sense to you as a sensible thing to worry about?

 

[uri]

Your starting conjecture: Manuel's hiding would suck because that's a non-combat skill/memory.

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Not my starting conjecture, I even fucking pointed out he's one of the best in the region in that field I said it would be worse then usual.

Exactly, there is no distinction between "non-combat" vs "combat" rolls

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But there is when we have a spear that gives combat bonuses versus other actions that don't.

(Yuan Lord,

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[ ] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits). You will fight the war from a Nascent perspective entirely on Old Yuan's behalf, allowing him to take decades to recover. This will weaken your position considerably in the war, but will offer him a massively-accelerated recovery time. Once fully recovered, of course, he will be less oppressed by your relative strength.

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Wont fight as this is the option we chose.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The difference between combat and noncombat is that on the one hand, weapon bonuses like the Spear apply in combat situations, and that on the other hand, Nascents can get hurt or even killed in combat situations.

Manuel will be less effective at pretty much anything if he's Wounded, but if his lessened effectiveness is affecting a diplomatic mission or "teaching juniors," he probably won't end up Crippled or something as a result of a bad roll. That's very much a possible outcome of him going into a combat situation while already weakened.

And we'd really be screwed if Manuel is Crippled going into the upcoming period of warfare and the big abyssal alliance invasion.

 

[Resonant]

Wont fight as this is the option we chose.

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Mind games, Yuan Lord doesn't need to fight - we can bluff with the threat of him coming into play. Kleisthenes is also unaccounted for from the enemy's perspective, and we clearly knew the invasion was coming with all the traps set up. Noble Knowledge will not risk their backs for someone they've got no love for in such an unprecedented situation. Their invasion plans/commitments will be entirely upended due to our actions, which can be parlayed into any number of victory conditions.

Not my starting conjecture, I even fucking pointed out he's one of the best in the region in that field I said it would be worse then usual.

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Didn't phrase it properly I guess, your starting conjecture was that his hiding skills would suck more than normal (due to the memory loss). My response was that hiding is such an integral part of Nascent combat that memories of hiding skills would be recovered.

I think we really, really treat the in-game information that Manuel is weakened and wounded as a serious problem that we need to plan around?

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Apologies, I will try to tone down the annoyance as it just seemed like the talking points is going around in circles. To clarify my logic: the in-game narrative description of Manuel's wound (memory loss) shouldn't be a concern, because mechanics-wise, it works like the usual roll penalty from a Wound. If Manuel is assigned Teaching duty, it will get a penalty. If Manuel is assigned Combat, it will get a penalty. Anything he does will get a flat roll penalty from the Wound, regardless of the narrative fluff about "recovering his memories".

The proposed issue: Manuel's memory loss could impact his stealth skills, lowering the chances of an ambush, decreasing his chances of winning in combat. This is pure narrative fluff, there wouldn't be a "stealth roll" or somesuch. Combat would be determined by all of our preparations, minus the Wound penalty. If the roll succeeds, it will probably be described in-game as "Manuel recovers all of his memories just in time to win the combat", etc.

So planning around the narrative fluff of "memory loss" doesn't make sense to me, it comes down to a flat roll mechanics-wise and the fluff will reflect the roll result.

If you're suggesting that I'm unable to imagine such a fortress, that seems kind of rude. It sounds like you are thus suggesting.

If you're suggesting that I think such a fortress cannot exist, then you're misunderstanding me.

I was expressing a sincere curiosity as to why we can't do this already, because I had the mistaken impression that we had all we need, because I wasn't aware of the full shopping list of things that would need to go into the project.

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I'm sorry that was a bad choice of words, didn't mean to end by implying a lack of imagination. I was trying to emphasize how Nascent-scale forts aren't mere hype out of nowhere, that we know of existing components that can be put to use creating one, that it was conceptualized over time rather than a half-baked idea.

Your quoted post was part of a (paraphrased) discussion - of how there's "little in the way of it being worth that hype" and that "you saw how it can be overrated". Thus, I tried to outline the sheer breadth of effects we could implant in such a Fortress. Uri and yourself seemed unconvinced of the potential so I tried to push for visualizing it based on the outline.

Okay, but can you see how I might reasonably be concerned about the dangers of over-concentrating force in one place? Like, I'm asking, does this make sense to you as a sensible thing to worry about?

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Of course, force deployments are not set in stone and we don't know what the disposition will be when the raid is ready. I merely wanted to outline how it can be viable at minimum, with room for tweaking if necessary.

But there is when we have a spear that gives combat bonuses versus other actions that don't.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here - I'm saying Manuel's wound has no distinction between "combat/non-combat". It is a flat roll penalty to ALL actions he undertakes. So the concern about his Stealth becoming worse is a moot point - everything he does will be worse, but the result of his actions will be determined by dice rolls and if his rolls succeed, it will be reflected in-story with the proper fluff - "his Stealth managed to recover just in time", etc.

 

[Shaper47]

Why? we're reaching the end game here, our casualties later matter less than our casualties now.

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End game to rule the desert to be specific but you do have a good point.

If I remember how our negotiations went regarding our new vassals we went for long term gains in return for short term costs and risks.

If we manage to keep enough of our strength steady and have time to grow our vassals will be well in hand if we show weakness they'll betray us. Short term strength boosts are thus very useful for our overall strategic goals.

I don't like the words underperform and nascent combat that a fucking recipe for disaster.

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We'd be courting death!

 

[Simon_Jester]

The proposed issue: Manuel's memory loss could impact his stealth skills, lowering the chances of an ambush, decreasing his chances of winning in combat. This is pure narrative fluff, there wouldn't be a "stealth roll" or somesuch. Combat would be determined by all of our preparations, minus the Wound penalty. If the roll succeeds, it will probably be described in-game as "Manuel recovers all of his memories just in time to win the combat", etc.

So planning around the narrative fluff of "memory loss" doesn't make sense to me, it comes down to a flat roll mechanics-wise and the fluff will reflect the roll result.

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Okay, but that loops into my point that if Manuel fucks up a normal roll due to penalties, it's an inconvenience, while if he fucks up a combat roll for the same reason, he could wind up crippled and then we're really in the soup.

I'm not making strong claims about complex mechanics that don't exist. I'm mostly focused on the fact that him being ambush-specced won't neutralize the fact that him being mentally wounded weakens his performance as a Nascent fighter, and that the consequences of losing because you were wounded are worse in combat than elsewhere.

...

I think there's a good in-story reason why our viewpoint Nascent woman (blanking on her name right this moment) is thinking "we should keep Manuel away from combat if reasonably practical."

 

[uri]

My response was that hiding is such an integral part of Nascent combat that memories of hiding skills would be recovered.

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Yet as you've pointed out hell still get the penalty.

Mind games, Yuan Lord doesn't need to fight

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First of all mind games is a lot different then what you implied (that the Yuan nascent would fight) second off they know he's poisoned they did the deed so even if they thought he would fight I'm not sure how much consideration they would put on it.

The proposed issue: Manuel's memory loss could impact his stealth skills, lowering the chances of an ambush, decreasing his chances of winning in combat. This is pure narrative fluff, there wouldn't be a "stealth roll" or somesuch. Combat would be determined by all of our preparations, minus the Wound penalty. If the roll succeeds, it will probably be described in-game as "Manuel recovers all of his memories just in time to win the combat", etc.

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Not how that works our QM has rolled more than a single dice for things before especially when they involved multiple stages or propitiatory moves.

If I had to gauss well see rolls for how well the traps do how well each incessant souls do (perhaps even multiple rolls for their battles if there are trump cards for the other side) how the Yuan and our regular forces do and maybe a few more.

But is not a single roll and not all of our preparations are guaranteed to work or be as effective as we'd like.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here - I'm saying Manuel's wound has no distinction between "combat/non-combat". It is a flat roll penalty to ALL actions he undertakes. So the concern about his Stealth becoming worse is a moot point - everything he does will be worse, but the result of his actions will be determined by dice rolls and if his rolls succeed, it will be reflected in-story with the proper fluff - "his Stealth managed to recover just in time", etc.

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I'm saying that while there is no official separation because of equipment that provide huge bonuses for a specific action it behooves us to at least debate like there is so we understand where it might help and where it might not.