Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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The Yuan Vote
Ok, that was a silly vote. Nobody is voting against it, and I doubt they will, so here's the negotiations.



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The Yuan Clan at this point have fallen diplomatically into the sphere of the Clan, and are quite willing to make an (enforceable) treaty with you. However, they'll only do it for Benefits and will give you Concessions in return (which cost Benefits).

Based on Kleisthenes' excellent roll, you start with 3 Benefits as opposed to zero. However, you cannot suggest a plan with below 0 Benefits. Any additional Benefits will simply be goodwill for the Yuan Clan. Rather than have a simple list of things, there are rather a list of diplomatic items with various choices. You must take one choice (but no more than one) from each option, with the single exception of Horse Trading where you have a list of various Benefits and Concessions you can take independently of one another.

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Choices

The Formal Allegiance of the Yuan:


[ ] The Righteous Ally (+6 Benefits)The Yuan Clan will not formally leave the Righteous Path, and will not formally join with the Golden Devils. Your co-operation will remain murky, and likely temporary unless you can establish your dominance in the Yuan over time. A major concession that will get the Yuan to offer more, but will in turn leave them heavily entangled with the Blood Defiance Federation, and may even see them join it. Cannot be taken with Formal Vassalage or the New Devils.

[ ] Ally of the Clan (+0 Benefits) .The Yuan Clan will formally ally with the Golden Devils, naming this alliance higher than their Righteous Path membership. It will bring them into the orbit of the Clan, but they will may need enticing to remain

[ ] Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits). The Yuan will swear themselves to the Golden Devils, and their Patriarch will serve under Manuel as a subordinate. However, he will spend his time on his own affairs for the most part, as will the Yuan. Manuel will gain the right to call them up for war but no further Nascent Actions from the Patriarch, as well as 1 Purchase worth of tribute per turn once the Noble Devil Alliance are pushed out of Yuan territory. Cannot be taken with Righteous Ally.

The Blood of Bronze

[ ] The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits). The Yuan will be given supplies sufficient to raise a double-strength Legion, biting into the Clan's supplies of Blood of Bronze usable on those wishing to join. This will cost the Clan approximately twenty thousand new Qi Condensation cultivators over forty years, but will give the Yuan the ability to raise their own loyal defensive Legions out of their crippled and maimed, using the regenerative capabilities of the Blood to build a new city-defense force. This force will be too small to be subjected to the Trials.

[ ] No Blood for Yuan (+0 Benefits). The Blood of Bronze will not be given to the Yuan Clan.

[ ] The New Devils (-9 Benefits). The Yuan will spend a huge amount of money and time giving their core hunters the Blood of Bronze, including the Grand Elder. However, while they will share the Blood of Bronze (though much weakened) they will not share the social systems of the Clan, remaining their own independent power. However, this will indelibly tie the Yuan to the Clan and while they may not be eternal friends, you will share an eternal interest. They will be subjected to the Trials.

The Warfront

[ ] First to Fight (+2 Benefits). The Clan simply has domineeringly superior heavy troops, far beyond the power of ordinary Yuan cultivators massed. While the Yuan are excellent hunters, they tend towards skirmishing and the like - hardly the ideal for attempting to fight and hold in some underground passage. The Clan will deploy their Legions first into the fight and take the brunt of the casualties initially. Not doing this will mean the Yuan will have to fight more themselves, weakening them relative to the Clan.

[ ] Tactically Sound (+0 Benefits). Deploy as best befits the situation, making no allowances for the origin of the troops.

[ ] Let the Yuan Bleed (-2 Benefits). The Yuan may as well take the fight first. While inferior heavy troops, thinning them out will make it that much easier for the Clan to establish dominance over them in future. Their losses will be tremendous.

The Nascent Soul

[ ] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits). You will fight the war from a Nascent perspective entirely on Old Yuan's behalf, allowing him to take decades to recover. This will weaken your position considerably in the war, but will offer him a massively-accelerated recovery time. Once fully recovered, of course, he will be less oppressed by your relative strength.

[ ] Equal Nascent Treatment (+0 Benefit). The Clan will treat Old Yuan as a Nascent of the Clan - he will fight, but not as hard as an unwounded Nascent will.

[ ] A Nascent Warrior (-6 Benefits). The Yuan Patriarch will serve under Manuel for 200 years, giving the Golden Devils another Nascent Action for 10 turns, including fighting in the war about to erupt.

Governance

[ ] A Council Ministry (+4 Benefits). The Yuan will have a complete ministry within the Optimatoi to handle their affairs. An expensive undertaking, this will cost 1 Purchase next turn to set up, and 10,000 Qi Condensation cultivators will be released from the Clan rolls to serve as go-betweens. They will be able to agitate for Purchases and various Choices, and will lose loyalty unless placated. Cannot be taken unless the New Devils or Formal Vassalage is taken.

[ ] A Council Seat (+2 Benefits). The Yuan will have the right to sit on the inner Council of the Golden Devils, joining every major Council Meeting. This will give them tremendous insight into the affairs of the Golden Devils as well as a substantial amount of power to impact Clan internal affairs. Cannot be taken unless the New Devils or Formal Vassalage is taken.

[ ] Equal Terms (+0 Benefits). One does not govern much over the other.

[ ] Complete Oversight (-2 Benefits). The Yuan will have observers of the Clan at their own secret meetings, forced to yield all their major information and decisions to the Clan. Cannot be taken unless the New Devils or Formal Vassalage is taken.

The Man-As-Mountain Array

[ ] Yuan Dominance (+4 Benefits). The Clan will use its diplomatic clout to allow the Yuan to dominate in spots, reducing the Righteous portion to nearly nothing. Massive gains will accrue to the Yuan - approximately 200 extra Foundation cultivators a turn, as well as 3 Core cultivators. This will, however, cause large reductions in your reputation with the remainder of the Righteous Path.

[ ] No Changes (0 Benefits). Little will change, though the Yuan will be forced to ensure those bidding on slots within the Array are not enemies of the Clan.

[ ] The Lesser Partner (-5 Benefits). The Yuan will cut off all others, and formally share it with the Golden Devils. Rather than the minor scraps they now receive, the treasures and gains to the Clan elites will make them into substantially greater powerhouses who can break through more easily. In practice this will mean a bonus of 200 or so extra Foundation cultivators a turn, as well as 3 more Core Formation cultivators. Can be taken with Righteous Ally.

[ ] The Equal Partner (-12 Benefits). The Yuan will become a minor partner in the use of the Man-As-Mountain Array. The Clan will gain a majority share, allowing them to break through massively. In practice this will mean a bonus of 500 or so extra Foundation cultivators a turn, as well as 5 more Core Formation cultivators.

The Yuan Army

[ ] Defense of the Homeland (+3 Benefits). The Yuan will have zero obligation to leave their homelands to fight, even if the Clan itself is invaded. It would take much payment to move them, but this concession wins their goodwill.

[ ] The Single War (+0 Benefits). If they are not a vassal, the Yuan are obligated to assist in a single war, coming when the Clan calls for a single conflict lasting no longer than forty years.

[ ] Auxilia (-3 Benefits) - The Yuan will serve as auxiliaries for the Clan for 200 years, their army marching as the Clan demands. Excellent scouts and mountaineers, they would be immensely useful for any warfare in the Mountains, though less useful otherwise. Cannot be taken with Vassal of the Clan.

Horse-Trading - You can pick as many items from this category as you like, unlike the single choice in all others above.

[ ] Preferential Spirit Stone Trade (+1 Benefits). The Yuan will receive preferential treatment when trading for the best Spirit Stones. In practice, this may mean sometimes the Clan is forced to defer a Purchase while the balance of trade settles, though it is only likely to occur if the Yuan are suffering from some deficit.

[ ] Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits). The Yuan do need coin urgently, especially to assist their Patriarch in their recovery. While they have many investments and the like that can be sold off, these things take time. Paying them now will win their goodwill, though it will cause the Clan to lose 2 Purchases next turn as small moneylenders are tapped out and paid back at high interests and valuables sold off en masse for lower prices.

[ ] Blood Divination (+2 Benefits). Manuel's ability to steal secrets is not formally known by most, but other Nascents know he has some method of doing so. Any future information gleaned about the Blood Path must be shared with the Yuan - and who knows where it will go from there?

[ ] Nascent Corpses (+1 Benefit). If any Nascents are killed, their corpses must be turned over to the Yuan (or equivalent penalties paid), who can use them to nourish various Spirit Beasts. An unlikely event from the perspective of the Yuan, but no small one.

[ ] Legacy of the Bull (-3 Benefits). The Clan will be permitted to study the Horns of the Bronze Bull, that ancient Clan Spirit Severing Beast, and even take away parts of them for their own use. What benefit it yields remains to be seen..

[ ] The Hunter Legions (-1 Benefits). The Clan will be permitted access to many of the best hunting grounds, raising several Legions of Beast-Core hunters. With such hunters well in hand, the Clan will find it far easier to operate in the mountains in future, as well as sneak into Turtlebone Mountain.

[ ] Wealth (-2 Benefits, can be taken up to 6 times. Paid next turn) . The Yuan will simply pay the Clan with their hard-earned wealth. Gain 1 Purchase per time this is taken. Not perhaps optimal, of course - the Yuan would prefer not to give up their money in such dangerous times, but it can be demanded.
 
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Given the power of this vote, I figure we have a twelve hour moratorium on this.

Feel free to make and discuss plans, but I'll open the vote after I get up tomorrow.
 
How about

[ ] Plan: Yuan Vassal
-[ ] Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits)
-[ ] The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits)
-[ ] Tactically Sound (+0 Benefits)
-[ ] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits).
-[ ] Complete Oversight (-2 Benefits). The Yuan will have observers of the Clan at their own secret meetings, forced to yield all their major information and decisions to the Clan. Cannot be taken unless the New Devils or Formal Vassalage is taken.
-[ ] Yuan Dominance (+4 Benefits)
-[ ] The Single War (+0 Benefits). If they are not a vassal, the Yuan are obligated to assist in a single war, coming when the Clan calls for a single conflict lasting no longer than forty years.
-[ ] Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits). The Yuan do need coin urgently, especially to assist their Patriarch in their recovery. While they have many investments and the like that can be sold off, these things take time. Paying them now will win their goodwill, though it will cause the Clan to lose 2 Purchases next turn as small moneylenders are tapped out and paid back at high interests and valuables sold off en masse for lower prices.
-[ ] Legacy of the Bull (-3 Benefits). The Clan will be permitted to study the Horns of the Bronze Bull, that ancient Clan Spirit Severing Beast, and even take away parts of them for their own use. What benefit it yields remains to be seen..
-[ ] The Hunter Legions (-1 Benefits). The Clan will be permitted access to many of the best hunting grounds, raising several Legions of Beast-Core hunters. With such hunters well in hand, the Clan will find it far easier to operate in the mountains in future, as well as sneak into Turtlebone Mountain.
 
Alright.

We can have our cake and depending on whether we want to hand the Yuan money, we can also eat it too.

[] Plan Equal (snrk) Partners
-[ ] Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits)
-[ ] The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits).
-[ ] First to Fight (+2 Benefits).
-[ ] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits)
-[ ] A Council Ministry (+4 Benefits)
-[ ] The Equal Partner (-12 Benefits)
-[ ] Defense of the Homeland (+3 Benefits).
-[ ] Preferential Spirit Stone Trade (+1 Benefits)

Everything here equals out. Losing the QC cultivators is evened out by the Elysium Fields grab on top of the outrageous boost to FE and CF Cultivators we get from the dispensation of the Man as Mountain Array. The formal vassalage in turn, pays off the costs of having to shoulder the tempo of the war, but we have the infrastructure to drag things out in the mountains. Its explicitly what we're best at, and will let us leverage our specialities after this turn, moreover, even if we lose our ability to easily dominate over the Yuan that matters less because we are inextricably tying the Yuan to ourselves as a major partner economically, and not militarily. With their Secret Realm equivalent firmly in our own grasp, we hobble their ability to raise up resistance to us in the long term while leaving them ostensible autonomy.

Not without cost to ourselves however, but the Tribute and the boosts to growth more than pay for themselves based on the losses we were originally planning to eat from these Trials in the first place.

This leaves the remainder of horse trading open to negotiate for whomever wants to use this framework as a basis for acquiring more money, specialized units, or those bull horns for analysis. But as a basic framework?

Yeah I'm confident in this
 
hm... interesting options....
Allegiance: I'm partial to ally, but i understand the charm of a BIG POWER Vassal.
Blood: Shining legions sounds like a poisoned pill for the Yuan, unless they keep the bronze blooded population tightly controlled....kinda said they are loyal to the Yuan though...
Warfront: First to fight sounds like a no brainier for me. though, Tactically sound sounds like a great mixed force....
NS: I'm fine with either, but letting Elder Yuan heal would help us push something down their throat easier.
Governance: interesting options... but yeah, as is, is probably the best.... unless we make them our vassals?
Though, bit strange that their own ministry is worth more than a seat in the Optimatoi council of elders.... like, being on the council is wort more, no? or its the autonomy and possible free purchases that are that much valuable?
I'm fine with Equal, that's how we do our other vassals after all.... i think.
Man-As-Mountain-Array (M.A.M.A. :V ) : I'm fine with lesser partner or Yuan Dominance, but the favored needs to be cut. Question is, should we burn our time limited goodwill now, or later?
Large Partner is costly as hell though :o
Yuan Army: I'm fine with either, all has good points for it.
Horse Trading: hm... interesting.
Preferential Spirit Stone Trade: This one is easy is easy.
Foreign Aid Payments: ...We are broke almost every turn, so, its a no imo, unless someone has a plan?
Blood Divination is... a double edged sword, i guess, but it could be useful? Seems like short term gain for long term loss though, giving up a card in the power play (as Tehchron so splendidly used it regarding the Pass Invasion)
Nascent Corpses: I'm fine with it. Destesia might cry though :V
Legacy of the Bull: could be interesting, could be a dud, probably similar to the Storks, need time to pay dividends and all that....
The Hunter Legions: YES! WE NEED THIS!!!!
Wealth: The coins other half to Foreign Aid, huh? are we that much in the red though?
 
I'm actually gonna be firmly against any plan to offer Nascent Corpses up. We get a ton more out of those than anything else the Yuan have on offer for Horse Trading. A purchase equivalent is deceptively heavy here.
 
I believe the idea was to limit use of the Stone Spear here, given our superior positioning.
I'd rather shoot for the additional sources of wealth. We have at minimum two big ticket purchases to make up for, with a third on the horizon.

With the Array falling into our grasp, boosting our FE and CF baseline via the Technique Palace hits even harder than before
 
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Iirc, the NS Trib Treasures decontaminate next turn, right? So, promoting Casia would ram the loyalty and anti-intrigue bonuses into the Yuan's face.
Which, lets be honest, puts another shine to make them our vassals. Also, more hunting time for Kleisthenes.
And Destasia would enjoy the flying fortress the Yuan have.
 
[ ] Plan Nascent Actions are Worth It
-[ ] Ally of the Clan (+0 Benefits)
-[ ] The New Devils (-9 Benefits)
-[ ] Tactically Sound (+0 Benefits)
-[ ] A Nascent Warrior (-6 Benefits)
-[ ] A Council Seat (+2 Benefits)
-[ ] Yuan Dominance (+4 Benefits)
-[ ] Defense of the Homeland (+3 Benefits)
-[ ] Preferential Spirit Stone Trade (+1 Benefits)
-[ ] Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits)
-[ ] Blood Divination (+2 Benefits)
-[ ] The Hunter Legions (-1 Benefits)

This plan has 2 core points to it.
First, "The New Devils" brings the Golden Devils one step closer to a potential nascent formation.
Second, nascent actions seem really powerful and "A Nascent Warrior" will yield 10 of them. It seems to be the kind of mid-term investment that can easily spiral into more.

I would guess there is also a minor combo between "The New Devils" and "A Nascent Warrior" as the blood of bronze would strengthen or even heal Yuan Hao, making his nascent actions more valuable.
"The Hunter Legions" seems like common sense given the low price and likely future ambitions.
The other choices pay for it all with wealth instead of cultivators, wherever sensible, leaving 1 Benefit for goodwill.


Edit: Sorry, I didn't realize these were trap options.
 
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We dont need another GD Nascent that isnt explicitly loyal, especially if you're not going to bother letting him commit to closed door Cultivation.

You're essentially trading guaranteed wealth and the benefits of our bottom-up build for the sake of another Nascent under the assumption that you can replicate the same gains by utilizing strategic flexibility during council votes. When our issue with obtaining Nascents down the pipeline isnt candidates, but Treasures.

All for the second most lukewarm of the Alliance options. Along with broader terms that do nothing but give an exorbitant amount of power away for the Yuan to rebel against us with

On top of paying them for that privilege

"worth it"?

As if! /xigbar
 
[X] Plan Equal (snrk) Partners with Hunter Legions

[X] Plan Equal (snrk) Partners with more risks
-[X] Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits)
-[X] The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits).
-[X] First to Fight (+2 Benefits).
-[X] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits)
-[X] A Council Ministry (+4 Benefits)
-[X] The Equal Partner (-12 Benefits)
-[X] Defense of the Homeland (+3 Benefits).
-[X] Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits)
-[X] Blood Divination (+2 Benefits)
-[X] Legacy of the Bull (-3 Benefits).

I agree with every choice on TehChron's plan but I have a higher tolerance for risk. Silver Blood is a legacy play, the Jingshen breeding black box is another legacy play so why not go for another with the Bronze Bull. A chance to obtain such advantage is worth 2 purchases and the inevitable leaks to the Blood Path & Righteous Path allow for counterintelligence rolls so it's not all bad there.

Edit: Dropped the Hunter Legions and the counter-benefit of Preferential Spirit Stones. Thanks @TehChron
 
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[ ] The New Devils (-9 Benefits). The Yuan will spend a huge amount of money and time giving their core hunters the Blood of Bronze, including the Grand Elder. However, while they will share the Blood of Bronze (though much weakened) they will not share the social systems of the Clan, remaining their own independent power. However, this will indelibly tie the Yuan to the Clan and while they may not be eternal friends, you will share an eternal interest. They will be subjected to the Trials.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Trials literally next turn? Doesn't really feel worth it if they immediately get buttfuck by the fifth sea.
 
So maintaining a 1-Benefit deficit is deliberate then?

The Equal Partner (-12 Benefits)
Legacy of the Bull (-3 Benefits).
Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits)
Total: -22

Start bonus (+3 Benefits)
The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits).
First to Fight (+2 Benefits).
Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits)
A Council Ministry (+4 Benefits)
Defense of the Homeland (+3 Benefits).
Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits)
Blood Divination (+2 Benefits)
Total: 22

Where's the deficit?
 
So... I'm going to note that Preferential Spirit Stone Trade is +1 for what looks like almost nothing. Foreign Aid gives us two points for paying 2 purchases up front. Preferential Spirit Stone Trade gives us one point for occasionally having a Purchase temporarily unavailable.

[x] Plan Fingers Everywhere
-[x] Vassal of the Clan (-7 Benefits)
-[x] The Shining Legion (+2 Benefits)
-[x] Tactically Sound (+0 Benefits)
-[x] Closed-Door Cultivation (+4 Benefits)
-[x] Complete Oversight (-2 Benefits)
-[x] The Lesser Partner (-5 Benefits)
-[x] The Single War (+0 Benefits)
-[x] Preferential Spirit Stone Trade (+1 Benefits)
-[x] Foreign Aid Payments (+2 Benefits)
-[x] Blood Divination (+2 Benefits)
-[x] Nascent Corpses (+1 Benefit)

- Vassal of the Clan and Complete Oversight leave them firmly under our control, with The Shining Legion giving them that much more reason why they can't go back to the Righteous side.
- As long as they're ours, Tactically Sound will result in the best overall outcomes.
- The Single War is just the thing that makes sense with them as vassals, as it jumps from "one war" to "all wars".
- Closed-Door cultivation for the points
- The Lesser Partner as an efficiency play. 5 benefits gets us 3 and 300... and then we could spend 7 more to get another 2 and 200?
- Various Horse Trading to bring our points up reasonably efficiently.

Basically... I want Vassal of the Clan, and I value Complete Oversight. All else follows.
 
The Single War is just the thing that makes sense with them as vassals, as it jumps from "one war" to "all wars".
...
[ ] The Single War (+0 Benefits). If they are not a vassal, the Yuan are obligated to assist in a single war, coming when the Clan calls for a single conflict lasting no longer than forty years.
As compared to

Manuel will gain the right to call them up for war but no further Nascent Actions from the Patriarch, as well as 1 Purchase worth of tribute per turn once the Noble Devil Alliance are pushed out of Yuan territory. Cannot be taken with Righteous Ally.
Taking the single war doesnt actually make a difference. It's just the SoP. Moreover, those 2 extra CF mean an average of one additional silverblood per turn, with 200 FE to staff out the numerous Legions beneath them. 500 FE per turn is enough to let us keep up with our increased Core Formation Ascension rate, as that's multiple Legions worth of Centurions each turn to match up with our increased QC generation.

It's a pretty big deal. Let's say over the course of 4 turns, we're comparing growth rates.

4x3 CF = 12 CF total, average of around 3 Silverbloods

4x5 CF = 20 CF total, average of around 5 Silverbloods

Which, incidentally, is what we wouldve gotten as a one time bonus from the fertility palace thing Jingshen was using

4×300 FE = 1200 FE total, enough for a single Legion staffer entirely with FE with some left over to spread around

4×500 FE = 2000 FE total, enough to staff two entire Legions with FE cultivators.

The difference only grows from there, and it syncs up well with the Coloneia bonuses that are QC only. It's not a small thing, and adds up a lot.

One we get the Technique Palace repaired those increased numbers become even more relevant on a pound for pound basis.
 
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