Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Lurking Magician]

Well, frankly, all of the diplomatic options have weaknesses in their payoffs.

Cannibal Deal: Obviously, long-term prospects are awful and we sacrifice our moral code.
The New Sect: Cannibal still survives to take over the Devil Bees, our gains are weak, and we're playing diplomacy games with righteous sects and Jingshan (which is diplomacy focused) as a demonic sect. I find this tempting if we set up Flood Dragon Sect though, since we're empowering an ally that way which is likely to side with us against Jingshan and the Devil Bees.
Negotiation: Phase 2 is us vs Jingshan and they have every reason to kick us while we're down. We don't really have an easy time here and we're going to need to turtle hard. Wealth and actions will probably be burned just to ensure we can hold onto our gains. And I doubt how much peace we'll have after this and worst case scenario, Jingshan cuts a deal with Sabers to totally screw us.
War to the knife: Very tempting from a position of "screw it, I'm doing what's right", but we're probably screwed if we do this, really. Empowered Manuel just makes this option thinkable.
Become righteous: Actually has the best payoffs but we get weakened and we're forced into the righteous wars and we lose a degree of autonomy and we still have our problems to contend with. We really just make great gains in removing 1 enemy and obtain an overall shift to diplomacy over war, which is not necessarily the best against Jingshan.

I think if we do Flood Dragon Sect + New Nascent Soul we're looking at the safest short term and most potent gains long-term.

 

[TehChron]

Wealth is good, yes, but that curse IS mild and, more importantly, can be lowered or eliminated without shifting the heavens.

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Er, the Curse of Poverty was a four pointer, and its permanent on the territories affected by it

Theres nothing minor about it

I think if we do Flood Dragon Sect + New Nascent Soul we're looking at the safest short term and most potent gains long-term.

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Occi already pointed out that appointing the Flood dragons to lead it was vanishingly unlikely when it first came up

 

[no.]

The wealth curse isn't mild at all, it's a massive income debuff. Getting all of this new land without the curse would be a gigantic amount of cash.

If our income had been higher on turn 5, we wouldn't have had to disregard every other possible purchase to get that damaged technique palace. The ability to actually set aside savings for big purchases instead of using up everything every turn is incredibly powerful.

 

[Lurking Magician]

A shame. Well, they all have their problems. I like the Nascent Soul because it lets us turtle for a strong payoff, but that's assuming it works out, of course.

As for the wealth curse, it's a problem, but it's also a problem we can address by raising our income normally.

 

[TehChron]

If our income had been higher on turn 5, we wouldn't have had to disregard every other possible purchase to get that damaged technique palace. The ability to actually set aside savings for big purchases instead of using up everything every turn is incredibly powerful

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If we'd had more money we couldve afforded to gamble on upgrading the Technique palace this turn, instead of only going all in on countering that Light Qi gambit like we did

 

[uri]

I actually brought up this point before the current bunus vote, we should at least consider using one of manuel actions to help our elder of war get to nacesent soul and have him make the attempt.

The chance's arent going to be good but tbh they never will (iirc having manuel as a dao protector and the resurces suplied by the purety sect only gave like 20 percent for the flood bandits to get another nacesent soul) and he succeeds we gain another old nacesent soul (and this one is combat and war speced)

 

[Lurking Magician]

True. If he's going to die anyway, might as well roll the dice.

 

[no.]

Helping the guy make the attempt is probably worth it, just not worth a huge amount of resources. I'm fine with putting maybe one Manuel action and a few wealth units in to roll the dice when Heraclius is about to die.

 

[TehChron]

Heraclius knew he was close to death, and had the situation not been so desperate he would've quietly gone off to die somewhere. He lacked the vital something to break through to Nascent Soul. Oh, shattering your Core and using the energy to trigger a greater tribulation seemed easy in theory. Had it merely been his life, he could've been fairly calm. But for those below Core Formation, the Core wasn't simply a piece of yourself. No, it was the manifestation of your purest belief, the accumulated ethics, morals, the knowledge of right and wrong and what path to follow in life. Shattering it wasn't merely like shattering some precious bauble on the floor.

To shatter your Core you needed to be able to acknowledge that you were wrong, or at least likely wrong. To reach the point of utmost certitude, to be utterly sure in every way of your beliefs. That was the way to reach the Great Circle. Such surety granted great power, and once you had established all your beliefs, had held onto all the things that made you you, you needed to be willing to abandon them at a moment's notice. To throw them aside like so much trash, your morals mere fuel for the fire that would rocket you forward towards greater power. To admit raw and potent doubt into your soul and adulterate the purest truth with it.

There was a reason Nascent Souls tended to be somewhat amoral, Heraclius thought. To violate yourself like that... no, it was not for him

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I really wish people would stop Ignoring the characters own opinion on the matter

 

[no.]

I really wish people would stop Ignoring the characters own opinion on the matter

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Oh no, he won't succeed. It's still worth it on principle to give it a try because the very rare chance it works would be great. Unless it's too expensive, in which case nah, let's let him be.

 

[TehChron]

Oh no, he won't succeed. It's still worth it on principle to give it a try because the very rare chance it works would be great. Unless it's too expensive, in which case nah, let's let him be.

Click to shrink...

I really doubt we're going to be drowning in wealth next turn when we need to invest as much as possible into getting our new territories up to speed as quickly as possible to get that money.

I just dont want to devote Manuel's actions and our seed money for the new territories on a gambit that's very likely to fail when we dont even have a successor for Heraclius lined up

It just isnt worth burning treasures to buy time for such a gambit that's very very unlikely to succeed

 

[no.]

I really doubt we're going to be drowning in wealth next turn when we need to invest as much as possible into getting our new territories up to speed as quickly as possible to get that money.

I just dont want to devote Manuel's actions and our seed money for the new territories on a gambit that's very likely to fail when we dont even have a successor for Heraclius lined up

It just isnt worth burning treasures to buy time for such a gambit that's very very unlikely to succeed

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Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm saying I'd like to try as long as it's not too expensive. If it's like three wealth for a 5% chance of success, a further 5% chance of false, and at 90% chance he dies, and he's literally about to die anyways, then like... fuck it, might as well. But if it's more like seven wealth plus a Manuel action for an 8% chance of success, then nah that's too much. You feel me?

 

[uri]

I really wish people would stop Ignoring the characters own opinion on the matter

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It presicly because its the chercter own opinion that i feel fine to ignore it (well partly, i still acknowledge that at beast he has low talent and probebly less), people can be wrong and that with manuel lecturing him, he will get a fighting chance

 

[TehChron]

Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm saying I'd like to try as long as it's not too expensive. If it's like three wealth for a 5% chance of success, a further 5% chance of false, and at 90% chance he dies, and he's literally about to die anyways, then like... fuck it, might as well. But if it's more like seven wealth plus a Manuel action for an 8% chance of success, then nah that's too much. You feel me?

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I do, my disagreement at that point is largely quibbling and we can wait until the option presents itself to decide from there

It presicly because its the chercter own opinion that i feel fine to ignore it (well partly, i still acknowledge that at beast he has low talent and probebly less), people can be wrong and that with manuel lecturing him, he will get a fighting chance

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He Didnt want to try

Like, I'll grant trying to force him to make the attempt, but if he's just going through the motions because we made him do it then no amount of coaching is going to make the difference there

 

[Catpetter1981]

Oh no, he won't succeed. It's still worth it on principle to give it a try because the very rare chance it works would be great. Unless it's too expensive, in which case nah, let's let him be.

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I think what TehChron is getting at is not that Heraclius won't succeed, but that Heraclius doesn't want to even make the attempt because he doesn't want to violate his own soul.

Forcing Heraclius to attempt a breakthrough would therefore be an intensively, deeply crass intrusion into his free will and freedom of choice. Which, yes, this is a Xianxia world and much of it revolves around doing extremely unpleasant things even to your own Clan mates, but surely there are some standards we would like to keep, at least for people like Heraclius who have already worked so hard for the Clan for so long.

 

[AlphaDelta]

... Except we're ignoring opportunity cost.

Manuel's action is the great write-in. It is the single most important, most powerful fulcrum we can use to push the worldstate into a direction of our choosing.

And it's... a gamble. Not even a *good* gamble, but one that's probably *single digit* in success rate. This isn't even getting into the opportunity cost.

 

[uri]

No. Just... No. There's a time and place for gambles. This is neither the time nor place for such a high cost high risk gamble

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Then when would be the time? Even in almost perfect condition with the flood bandit gang we got 20 percent chance, there always going to be the next big threat (the trials practically gerantty that) and we got to take those risks if we want another nacesent soul.

As for him not wanting to do it, it may be possible with the teaching action to convince to do it with a good write in( but I'm not sure how likely that is)

 

[Kaboomatic]

As for him not wanting to do it, it may be possible with the teaching action to convince to do it with a good write in( but I'm not sure how likely that is)

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At this point you're talking in maybes of possiblies
Like
There's a lot of ifs that have to happen for this to even work, and the opportunity cost is in no way worth it

And even beyond that, if we try to do something like what you're suggesting, we're effectively manipulating a dude into unwillingly shattering his entire self identity in the hopes of possibly having a chance to maybe create a nascent soul

 

[Catpetter1981]

Then when would be the time? Even in almost perfect condition with the flood bandit gang we got 20 percent chance, there always going to be the next big threat (the trials practically gerantty that) and we got to take those risks if we want another nacesent soul.

Click to shrink...

We can wait for the next potential Nascent Soul to arise organically within the ranks of the Bronze Devils.

 

[uri]

We can wait for the next potential Nascent Soul to arise organically within the ranks of the Bronze Devils.

Click to shrink...

Well sure, if we can wait a century or two

 

[shoeboxthefirst]

Well sure, if we can wait a century or two

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Manuel will live for around 3k more years no? We have plenty of time

 

[Catpetter1981]

Well sure, if we can wait a century or two

Click to shrink...

There's been no signs that we can't wait a century or two, though. Manuel has never once mentioned that the Clan must raise another Nascent Soul within X years or risk an inevitable decline unto total destruction.

Loss conditions that Manuel has mentioned include:

(a) The Bronze Devils having zero Nascent Souls;

(b) The Bronze Devils losing the Scorpion Road trade income;

(c) The Jingshen Clan raising a third Nascent Soul;

(d) The Bronze Devils not having two Nascent Souls.

We can trust Manuel's judgment on these top-level strategic matters of fundamental Clan survival, since he's explicitly an Old Master with tonnes of experience in management and intrigue. If Manuel has never said that the Clan needs two Nascent Souls to avoid a game over, then we don't need two Nascent Souls to avoid a game over.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Looking at it, Heraclius isn't THAT old. At the very least, it should be possible to extend his life until the next trial and perhaps more.

Spoiler: Cultivators lifespawn

A mortal might live a hundred years at their absolute most. A Qi Condensation cultivator at the peak of Qi Condensation can live to 200. A Foundation Establishment cultivator can live to around 500. A Core Formation cultivator can live to around 1,000, and a Nascent Soul cultivator can live to around 5,000 years of age

There are ways to stretch that out, as well - sleeping a lot, stealing lifespan from other cultivators, using heavenly treasures and pills, and so on. These all combined cannot give you immortality, but the rule of Five sets a hard limit. Spirit Severing cultivators can live for 25,000 years, but no matter what heavenly treasures or opportunities they find, the absolute limit of the lifespan of a Nascent Soul cultivator is 25,000 years.

 

[TehChron]

Then when would be the time?

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3 turns ago, when we bet it all on surviving a death blow from our karmic bad luck and gunning for the technique palace

It worked, yeah, but this was always meant to be the cooldown period where we regain our bearings from that beating, shore up our losses, and take advantage of the new opportunities that present themselves in a sedate fashion up until the next Trial Period occurs.

Let's not play that argument when the entire point of this recovery period is to play things safe until they stabilize, and thus far that's worked out well for us.

Looking at it, Heraclius isn't THAT old. At the very least, it should be possible to extend his life until the next trial and perhaps more.

Click to shrink...

Yes, which barely gives us about enough time to raise a successor to take his place in the Council.

A rather critical issue given our current shortage of Core Formations at the moment

 

[TheCount]

Do we know what happened with the other candidate for the position?

Olympiodora Rhangabe - Olympiodora is a quiet woman, and not your first pick for the position. Promoting her would be somewhat unorthodox. However, she is 380 years old, and in Mid Core Formation already. Her talent is undeniable, and while her skills are unpolished, you believe she is more an unpolished jade than anything else. She picks up every skill she has with relative ease, and in time you think would make a formidable Protostrator. Of course, time can be very costly.

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If she is alive, we might be able to nominate her as his replacement/assistant, unless she got killed or we have a better pick this time.