Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

[occipitallobe]

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[Sparsebeard]

Have we considered what we want from Negotiations? Jingshen will fight to not allow us a dominating position, as they know that once we get there, we'll throttle them. Just like we know to keep them from getting a third Nascent Soul.
So, what's their stick? What could they do to keep us from taking it all?
I'm thinking that they're going to threaten to

• Buy Mercs
• Call in Favors
• Cut off Stones to the Great Battlefield

So we're going to have to decide how much we're going to push.

Edit: It occurs to me that Lady Jiao would be accepting of whatever position we put her in. Maybe that's why she's not at the negotiations?

Click to shrink...

Also, while it makes sense that the Jingshen want some land to "maintain the balance", I wonder if they'll pay us for it considering we were the ones that fought and died for it.

If that's the case, I wonder what kind of concessions we could ask for in exchange?

• Wealth?
• Helping us mop up the cannibals?
• Other ideas?

 

[Katana1515]

Consider how much of the setting is something of a blank slate to us right now, given the creative liberties we're allowed with GS writing

That freedom extends to Occi as well

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So no then?

Its a fair thought though and I will happily admit I hadn't thought of it. I was thinking of mercenaries more in line with our previous deal with the Soup Sect for extra Core formation elders, or perhaps that they might use cash incentives to raise troops from their vassal states like we did with the Hong Xuan clan.

Hiring a Nascent Soul is an entirely different kettle of fish. Surely doing such a thing must be difficult, even for a clan with deep pockets, or the Jingshen would have done it already and chased us out of the desert?

We were told that they have been working a long time to try and build up enough infrastructure to get a third Nascent, so the idea of them just hiring one the moment trouble strikes didn't occur to me.

Hmm, our lack of a detailed understanding about the Jingshen really is a pain at this point. I know the competition for Manuel/Clan actions is fraught, but I really would like to see Intrigue:Jingshen in a plan next turn.

 

[TehChron]

Hiring a Nascent Soul is an entirely different kettle of fish. Surely doing such a thing must be difficult, even for a clan with deep pockets, or the Jingshen would have done it already and chased us out of the desert?

We were told that they have been working a long time to try and build up enough infrastructure to get a third Nascent, so the idea of them just hiring one the moment trouble strikes didn't occur to me.

Click to shrink...

After what just happened, can you think of a mercenary who'd be willing to be the dude paid to test the Golden Devils defenses?

Theres a difference between that and bullying Road guards when "escorting a trade caravan".

 

[Olivebirdy]

After what just happened, can you think of a mercenary who'd be willing to be the dude paid to test the Golden Devils defenses?

Theres a difference between that and bullying Road guards when "escorting a trade caravan".

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They wouldn't be doing it alone, they'd have two other Nascent Souls to back them up.

Hiring a Nascent Soul is an entirely different kettle of fish. Surely doing such a thing must be difficult, even for a clan with deep pockets, or the Jingshen would have done it already and chased us out of the desert?

Click to shrink...

Probably cripplingly expensive. Too expensive to do without urgent necessity.

 

[Alectai]

Also, when the stakes are this high, you don't trust mercenaries not to fuck you, and there aren't so many Nascent Souls currently unattached that Jingshen can just buy one to serve as their third, not when the stakes are a major trade artery that you could build a Great Power off of the proceeds of. If you're just 'Inviting' someone from another Sect, you risk them deciding to keep it, or backstabbing you in the height of victory and keeping it. While the rare itinerant Nascent Soul is going to strongly consider establishing their own Great Power on it.

 

[NotteBoy97]

There's also the fact I bet Manual would totally be willing to mess around with a merc with hidden intrigue shit like paying them to backstab or 'convincing' the merc to just leave or else. Stuff of that nature

 

[TehChron]

The problem isnt a war to the knife, its forcing Manuel to try and split his focus three ways. Or rather, the threat of doing so

 

[Lurking Magician]

New guy here. I have an ambitious plan that should pay off extremely well.

If we go with Even Lightning comes from a Cloud and we burn remaining lifespan treasures on Heraclius Staurakius, we should dedicate all our personal actions for something like 5+ turns straight on our MC's trademark talent of Cultivation Lecturing focused on our friend Heraclius Staurakius and have him ascend into Nascent Soul.

That way, instead of being -1 Great Circle Core Formation Elder in a few turns, we end up being +1 Early Stage Nascent Soul.

Obviously we can't afford to burn ourselves out on a war and we want to stabilize the situation (so either New Sect or Negotiated End) so we don't end up with more difficulties in the near future. And we'll win in a way that completely blindsides them. One the best ways to pull one over the competition is to be playing a completely different game from everyone else, after all. Who's with me on this?

[x] Plan: Nascent Ascension!
-[X] The New Sect or The Negotiated End (follow-up vote on those details if need be)
-[X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

 

[TehChron]

. I have an ambitious plan that should pay off extremely well.

If we go with Even Lightning comes from a Cloud and we burn remaining lifespan treasures on Heraclius Staurakius, we should dedicate all our personal actions for something like 5+ turns straight on our MC's trademark talent of Cultivation Lecturing focused on our friend Heraclius Staurakius and have him ascend into Nascent Soul.

Click to shrink...

You may have missed the update where he admitted he didnt think himself capable of making the leap necessary to ascend to Nascent Soul, which tied to his own stagnation at Great Circle.

So...no, that's not particularly a great idea to bet our Core Formation relevant Life extending treasures on

 

[Lurking Magician]

That's what the constant cultivation lecturing is for (along with an easier tribulation). @occipitallobe, how many turns total can we extend his lifespan if we burn our lifespan treasures, is it possible to acquire more, and is it possible to ask for what the odds of success would be for this plan?

 

[TehChron]

How is making that gamble.superior to using those Manuel actions on improving the Clans position by any number of other methods such as lecturing students at large, doing spy stuff, helping establish infrastructure in newly acquired lands, or prepping our lands for the Trials during that period?

Maybe even put actions into studying that gem thing?

What makes that gamble so much more valuable than taking care of the Clan as a whole, especially when Wealth is far more valuable than weakening Tribulations right now?

 

[Lurking Magician]

It's pretty clear that Nascent Soul cultivators are a major measure of clan strength and translates into a lot of clout in negotiations (as well as extra tribute when we invite everyone to come celebrate). It might also translate into additional actions (if we get extra actions by having an extra Nascent Soul, I don't know). It's also the case that we're pretty much gutted for high realm experts right now and if this works we switch from being in a bad position to being in a strong position. Weakening tribulations also means we can get Core Formation experts more easily in addition to the extra Nascent Soul.

May as well ask @occipitallobe what having an extra Nascent Soul cultivator would do for us.

 

[TehChron]

It's pretty clear that Nascent Soul cultivators are a major measure of clan strength and translates into a lot of clout in negotiations (as well as tribute when we invite everyone to come celebrate).

Click to shrink...

How does that help us now, when the most important negotiations we're likely going to have for the foreseeable future save for divvying up Abyssal Bee territory should we defeat them are happening right this second?

What will there be to negotiate on which justifies such an expense? Because it's way too late for a hypothetical second Nascent Soul to affect these negotiations in the slightest

 

[Sparsebeard]

New guy here. I have an ambitious plan that should pay off extremely well.

If we go with Even Lightning comes from a Cloud and we burn remaining lifespan treasures on Heraclius Staurakius, we should dedicate all our personal actions for something like 5+ turns straight on our MC's trademark talent of Cultivation Lecturing focused on our friend Heraclius Staurakius and have him ascend into Nascent Soul.

That way, instead of being -1 Great Circle Core Formation Elder in a few turns, we end up being +1 Early Stage Nascent Soul.

Obviously we can't afford to burn ourselves out on a war and we want to stabilize the situation (so either New Sect or Negotiated End) so we don't end up with more difficulties in the near future. And we'll win in a way that completely blindsides them. One the best ways to pull one over the competition is to be playing a completely different game from everyone else, after all. Who's with me on this?

[x] Plan: Nascent Ascension!
-[X] The New Sect or The Negotiated End (follow-up vote on those details if need be)
-[X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure even in the best cases, the rate of success when ascending to Nascent Soul is something like 1 in 5, making the endeavour a numbers game.

Gambling many of Manuel's turns, life extending treasures and our boon on this would be a huge investment for what AT BEST would have a 4 in 5 chance to fail (even if Manuel's instruction is successful in giving Heraclius a chance) seems wasteful.

EDIT : If we get excess Wealth in the next turns, I wonder if we coud use a variant of the "Lecture" action where we reward our best juniors? Something like :

[ ] Lecturing - You can simply lecture your many juniors on cultivation. Spend your time helping them grow, using less resources and ensuring better growth for the Clan. (Use X Wealth to reward the most promising students)

 

[Lurking Magician]

Right now the major problem is this plan is dealing with too many unknowns (ie. odds of success, how long we can teach him, what other actions we'd have to raise odds, and what kind of payoffs we can expect). So I think we need to wait a bit on details, unless we want to argue based on severe guesswork.

 

[Sparsebeard]

Right now the major problem is this plan is dealing with too many unknowns (ie. odds of success, how long we can teach him, what other actions we'd have to raise odds, and what kind of payoffs we can expect). So I think we need to wait a bit on details, unless we want to argue based on severe guesswork.

Click to shrink...

Can't find the quote but I'm pretty sure the 1 in 5 odds at best is canon (10 % to 20 % was the range we were given I believe), and that's for people who are talented enough to make the attempt).

 

[TehChron]

Right now the major problem is this plan is dealing with too many unknowns (ie. odds of success, how long we can teach him, what other actions we'd have to raise odds, and what kind of payoffs we can expect). So I think we need to wait a bit on details, unless we want to argue based on severe guesswork.

Click to shrink...

What guesswork?

We know why money is awesome and how it can do.many things. It's a known quantity.

We also know what problems your proposal doesnt solve. The unknowns are the benefits of your suggestion, and if you dont have a more solid groundwork on why it's a superior choice then there isnt much to discuss even if Occi tosses you a bone.

 

[Lurking Magician]

I find it impressive how you are going out of your way to downplay the benefits of an extra Nascent Soul cultivator. But essentially, it benefits us in terms of money, power, negotiating clout, and possibly extra actions (but that's not sure). It also makes it much easier for us to expand our territory, be safe against threats, and destroy our enemies.

In addition to that there are also the more mundane benefits of us having bonuses towards resolving our glaring lack of Core Formation experts (soon to become worse with Heraclius dying) thanks to easier tribulations.

If this plan works, it's an extremely strong move, but we don't exactly know the odds or specifics regarding the payoff (ie. how much an extra Nascent Soul would change things).

 

[Alectai]

I find it impressive how you are going out of your way to downplay the benefits of an extra Nascent Soul cultivator. But essentially, it benefits us in terms of money, power, negotiating clout, and possibly extra actions (but that's not sure). It also makes it much easier for us to expand our territory, be safe against threats, and destroy our enemies.

In addition to that there are also the more mundane benefits of us having bonuses towards resolving our glaring lack of Core Formation experts (soon to become worse with Heraclius dying) thanks to easier tribulations.

If this plan works, it's an extremely strong move, but we don't exactly know the odds or specifics regarding the payoff (ie. how an extra Nascent Soul would change things).

Click to shrink...

Nobody's downplaying it, the point is that spending most of our reserve for a 50/50 (At best) gamble leaves us with no recourse if the gamble fails.

 

[TehChron]

I find it impressive how you are going out of your way to downplay the benefits of an extra Nascent Soul cultivator. But essentially, it benefits us in terms of money, power, negotiating clout, and possibly extra actions (but that's not sure). It also makes it much easier for us to expand our territory, be safe against threats, and destroy our enemies.

Click to shrink...

I accept the compliment in the spirit it was given.

That said, you present the option of gambling on getting a Nascent Soul to the exclusion of as many as a dozen potential other options for actions in the future as a simple binary

Rather than contest the actual issue of whether or not your proposed gamble is worth the investment compared to the other potential uses those actions and resources could be put towards.

I'm afraid I dont have a compliment to return in kind for your efforts on that front, though.

 

[Lurking Magician]

@Alectai, one poster says 20% at best, you say 50% at best, and we don't quite know what options we'd have to try to get it higher than 50% either. It's possible that if we save up money for tribulation resources and end up teaching him for 8 turns we get odds over 80+%. How much we can do is another one of those unknowns. I'm not saying my plan is sure to work. Just that we need more details to assess its feasibility properly.

@TehChron, the issue with assessing the worth of the action is that resources, costs, risks, and payoffs all play very important roles in assessing whether the plan is worthwhile, and there are large unknowns there. As I said, it'd be a guessing game to argue that kind of thing right now. If you wish to fault me for not engaging the issue before we have the facts, you may do so, I suppose.

 

[TehChron]

@TehChron, the issue with assessing the worth of the action is that resources, costs, risks, and payoffs all play a very important roles in assessing whether the plan is worthwhile, and there are large unknowns there. As I said, it'd be a guessing game to argue that kind of thing right now. If you wish to fault me for not engaging the issue before we have the facts, you may do so, I suppose.

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Then a critical question for you to consider:

If you dont have the facts for how your proposed payoff work out, then how can you possibly know if it's a good idea in the first place?

Forgive the language, but relying upon an argument from ignorance doesnt make for much of a sales pitch

 

[Lurking Magician]

No, I fully acknowledge the pitch leaves something to be desired in its present state of vagueness. I'm only saying I'd like to know what occipitallobe has to say before we attempt to argue its particulars, since those answers are liable to decide whether we can or can't do the plan. I'd like to do it if it seems workable, but I admit I don't know yet if it is.

I like the plan because an extra Nascent Soul would be a big leap forward if we can.

 

[TehChron]

Then I apologize, but if you dont really have anything concrete to base the idea off of, then what in its present form is so attractive beyond the proposals already outlined in the discussion thus far?

And in the absence of anything concrete to assess your own idea by, what do those other proposals lack when compared to what little you do have in mind that make searching for an alternative so attractive?

 

[TheCount]

Another newbie here, and I too would prefer lightning comes from clouds, alas, it's too far behind cloack the ways between which is another good option to save our manpower.

Wealth is good, yes, but that curse IS mild and, more importantly, can be lowered or eliminated without shifting the heavens.

The other two? Untouchable as far as I'm aware, at least, at the 120 council meeting. And the comments after the heaven shifting announcement.

At least, before the next trial, and then, the previous one ended pretty terrible, what with most of the elders en up dead....

On that note, we should prepare for it in the next 2 turns as well as we can, turtling up and pray nothing as bad as bhruhi comes over..... Which is probably inevitable, as he wants the 9th prince dead and the clan probably pissed off with that tribulation calling... After he killed most of the elders.