- Location
- ireland
Mainly cause in terms on nasu verse cross with most earth gods being alien from other space that settled on earth he would probably count as one. Also the irony of how well scion/zion fits into nasu space
Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]
- Thread starter James D. Fawkes
- Start date
- Crossover
Mainly cause in terms on nasu verse cross with most earth gods being alien from other space that settled on earth he would probably count as one. Also the irony of how well scion/zion fits into nasu space
More than calling him a god, my problem with the Taylor Hype Squad is that they seem to insist that Taylor is the one who killed Scion with her sheer badassery, which is... not true? She was one of many players in that fight, arguably the biggest, but in no way was she the one who pulled the trigger on Scion's death, merely helped set up others to do it. By the time Scion actually died, she wasn't doing very much.
Still not sure what her nano-dagger has to do with Scion's defeat honestly.
Pretty sure it's in text, not just WoG. Like IIRC Contessa saw what the Entities' intentions were, and "Destroy all Earths" was definitely on the side-effects list of what they were going to eventually do because it's what always happens when they leave a planet. They draw energy from almost every version to their launch position, blow their billions of children into the void of space, and the blast propagates back through all the channels its energy was sourced from destroying pretty much everything the Entities haven't already eaten.
First I've heard of TAs protecting Humanity. I thought they were made to regulate Humanity, you know the same way humanity regulates coyotes. Let them exist, but cull them whenever they get too problematic. DAs wouldn't really see the problem until its too late or be able to stop it once it's going. "Oh no, the food supply has mucked up one of their little wars. It's not like they'll go extinct because of it." Then humanity gets Incinerated. "Oh no, the food supply is being wiped out by Tiamat! We can't stop her!" Then Humanity gets Incinera... does Humanity actually get Incinerated if Tiamat does her thing successfully? There's not really a Humanity left to Incinerate if she succeeds.
Fair point, by eating the charred corpse of PHH and taking all its power he would supplant Humanity as the Dominant Species and thus Proper History would be his to shape.
Still doesn't address the crossover problem of the two hyper advanced tapeworm spacewhales that could casually erase the whole solar system by talking too close to it. They were pretty dead set on using Earth for their own ends and would've fouled Goetia's whole plan long before they reduced themselves to a state he could hope to deal with. It'd be one thing if they arrived to Goetia's new Earth after he had Incinerated Humanity; he'd still have to deal with two alien god virus worm whales that out class him by orders of magnitude, but it'd be a separate problem from them neutralizing his plan before he got anywhere with it. The Entities arrive before he burns the world and the history he burns includes the history around them. That's human extinction 268 years too early for the projected Cycle, and the Warrior's job is to protect the Cycle.
Shit. Maybe not. Entities deal in efficient solutions. They only do major experimentation on a few inhabited planets every cycle so who cares if a few unused worlds get Incinerated, just quarantine them beforehand and the big Petri dish fire will fizzle out before it spreads to the other, important samples. Goetia would be left staring at a wispy band of light wondering where the rest of it is and unable to fulfill his goal. Except a couple of years before Lev lit the final fuse the Monkeys killed the scientists and broke the quarantines open. It still doesn't really address the issue of Goetia's plan not working on the different histories of Earth Shin and such, but I guess maybe he doesn't really need all of human history to fuel his mission. He just needs enough to go back, overpower the Counter Force of the untouched histories, and do his retcon.
... Goetia/Fake Solomon's going to thank Taylor when he sees her isn't he? If she didn't defeat the Invader and destroy his quaratines in the process the Incineration plan would've fizzled out and achieved nothing but a smattering of mass human casualties, but she cleared the way and put the plan back on track. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero.
Winged One
Not the Simurgh
- Location
- definitely the ground
- Pronouns
- They/Them/It
Well, I suppose that explains it for this thread. Now if only there was an explanation for everywhere else it happens...
fallacies
Puyo Mage
In other words, "because a crossover is happening at all," therefore "Goetia would've necessarily lost."
This assumes a fair number of things.
Just to point it out, the Entities canonically couldn't "handle Earth," even that it was on account that there was intervention from a third party. The fact that they've dealt with other planets until this point doesn't mean that they can necessarily deal with this particular planet, because you can always win up until the part where you lose.
Further, conceptual bullshit isn't acknowledged as of Worm canon, and it'd be an assumption to pose that the Entities necessarily bear the sort of arsenal necessary to deal with them.
"Obviously, they must have dealt with similar threats before, simply on account that they've traveled so far; survived for so long" is a claim that could certainly be made — but on what justification do we know that the Earth isn't a variety of threat that these particular Entities haven't previously encountered?
(Or rather, would they have even survived to this point if they previously encountered another world like Earth? It doesn't need to be the case that the Earth is somehow unique.)
That aside, Goetia is immortal up until you take away the Authority that keeps him so. If he's acting at all, his immortality would need to be considered.
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Aeoniam
Tauren Historian
- Location
- Thunderbluff, Mulgore
PRAISE THE HOLY BOOT OF HER DIVINE MAJESTY OF ESCALATION!
*insane fangirling ensues*
You presume Earth beat the Entities. This is factually wrong. The Entities beat themselves. Eden got so enamored with her new toys from Abbadon that she neglected proper downsizing, distribution, and landing procedures. She didn't prepare all its Shards for distribution on time, crashed into the planet in an extremely vulnerable state, and lost a key Shard to a Host that used it to kill her, and she almost succeeded despite all that because she stopped Fortuna at the last second and survived in a revivable state for years afterward.
Zion was a depressed widower that became so enamored with his own imitation humanity that he didn't want to let go of it even when he was literally letting himself get killed because of it.
Then after all that their orphaned Shards still almost completed the Cycle in a shoddy slapdash conclusion a few years later. Only to choose not to blow the planet up because they had discovered some data too valuable to Entitykind to risk the angry monkeys damaging in their spiteful death throes.
Both Entities killed themselves, and their Shards got exactly what they want and are willing to wait for another Entity to come by and find them.
Because Wildbow is terrible at numbers the low end of what a full Entity can do out biggatons pretty much everything we have seen in Nasuverse and rival its greatest powers with casual acts.
So, yeah "because the crossover is happening the Entities would've won." If they wouldn't have then the crossover never would have happened. People talk about Parahumans being Grimdark because of all the suffering in its crapsack world, but that's what makes the the series Nobledark. In that crapsack world so full of suffering people keep trying, keep hoping, and every now and again eke out a win and a little piece of happiness. What makes it Grimdark is that it's all meaningless in the face of the greater multiverse because it's being eaten by an exponentially growing race of effectively omnipotent alien god virus worm whales as it slowly expands towards the Heat Death of All of Creation. That the effectively omnipotent alien god virus worm whales were arrogant, foolish, and horrifically unlucky this one time with some angry monkeys should not be a reason to dismiss that they are in fact effectively omnipotent alien god virus worm whales. They are their only fallibility.
fallacies
Puyo Mage
I didn't presume that Earth beat the Entities.
What I actually said was:
Factually, the Entities came to Earth and lost, regardless of the circumstances that led up to it.
Even that another Entity was the cause, in the end, this particular pair of Entities still couldn't handle visiting the Earth.
To put it in other words, despite all their accumulated experiences and successful cycles up until arriving on Earth, they still ended up failing, as this was a novel experience that they never previously encountered.
If Apollyon can rig up a novel encounter that they couldn't handle, it isn't impossible that a different novel experience could've overwhelmed them, regardless of all their previous cycles.
Having the Entities win simply on account that a crossover is happening is really just something that would come of the particular way in which the crossover is being implemented — the assumptions made in the process of assembling the way in which elements come together.
Ergo, if a crossover is being assembled in such a way that the Entities have won in the manner you presume, that's per the fiat of the author.
This isn't the sole way in which a crossover could be implemented.
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- Location
- ha noi
Really, it doesn't matter how much biggation the Entity have, they would still fall to overcome the hurdle that is the Nasuverse humanity. They lack narrative weight, being uninteresting blind idiot gods without much struggle. Humanity in Worm is also bad, being so average, both the high and low being too unimpressive and lackluster. The emotional high are not exactly larger than life, people just feel dull. In contrast, nasuverse is more vibrant, with much more personalty. And in the end, in a story, the one more interesting win out
Goetia vs the Entities! Round 1: Fight!
James D. Fawkes
Court Scribe
- Location
- Avalon (Isle of Mists)
You two might be arguing around each other instead of arguing two sides of the same point.
Regardless, I didn't think overhard about the fine print of "how did the Entities not get squished by Mama Earth" or anything like that. I kind of just assume that their species in general tends to look for those species who "broke the cycle" of the local Age of Gods equivalent, precisely because their cycle is about breaking out of their original cycle of "eat, multiply, cannibalize, decimate, repeat," and as a result, they have methods of avoiding smushing by the local planetary consciousness.
I didn't think overhard about it because it's not super relevant to the story. The events of Worm are canon insofar as they are "things that happened." By and large, however, they are not incredibly relevant to Goetia's "Incineration of Human History," because it was an issue that "handled itself." Even if Goetia looked at the Entities and went, "Well, fuck, that's a problem," his Clairvoyance is also bullshit enough for him to immediately conclude, "but it works itself out, so I don't need to worry."
As for the Entities, they undoubtedly would have had a solution to the issue of, "But what if Goetia tries to burn everything away?" If they didn't just quarantine Goetia's timeline to keep it from affecting their petri dish (if that even worked in the first place), then the Thinker would have had a possible solution — and never got to implement it because she got into a distracted driving incident and died on the operating table.
It's not really a question of "who would have handled the other better" as it is "did either side really see the need to get involved to fix the problem." Both sides are incredibly bullshit, but both sides would have had legitimate reasons not to try getting into a pissing contest with the other.
If you want to keep debating the point, though, I won't stop you.
Regardless, I didn't think overhard about the fine print of "how did the Entities not get squished by Mama Earth" or anything like that. I kind of just assume that their species in general tends to look for those species who "broke the cycle" of the local Age of Gods equivalent, precisely because their cycle is about breaking out of their original cycle of "eat, multiply, cannibalize, decimate, repeat," and as a result, they have methods of avoiding smushing by the local planetary consciousness.
I didn't think overhard about it because it's not super relevant to the story. The events of Worm are canon insofar as they are "things that happened." By and large, however, they are not incredibly relevant to Goetia's "Incineration of Human History," because it was an issue that "handled itself." Even if Goetia looked at the Entities and went, "Well, fuck, that's a problem," his Clairvoyance is also bullshit enough for him to immediately conclude, "but it works itself out, so I don't need to worry."
As for the Entities, they undoubtedly would have had a solution to the issue of, "But what if Goetia tries to burn everything away?" If they didn't just quarantine Goetia's timeline to keep it from affecting their petri dish (if that even worked in the first place), then the Thinker would have had a possible solution — and never got to implement it because she got into a distracted driving incident and died on the operating table.
It's not really a question of "who would have handled the other better" as it is "did either side really see the need to get involved to fix the problem." Both sides are incredibly bullshit, but both sides would have had legitimate reasons not to try getting into a pissing contest with the other.
If you want to keep debating the point, though, I won't stop you.
Garreon
Paldean Top Champion
- Location
- Mesagoza, Paldea
Taylor, there are more doomsday scenarios in the Nasuverse than in Earth Bet. The fact no normal knows about it, doesn't mean they will be spared.
Welp, considering Phantasmal Beasts are a thing in this world I think Humans would have it waaaay worse if the Phantasmal Species hadn't fled to the Reverse Side. You lived in a world were the attacks were more or less scheduled, fucked yes, but easier to try to rally around that with sporadic attacks from magical creatures. Then it was all human stupidity, trauma and egos you had to deal with
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Unfortunate that Taylor and Emiya's interactions were so short.
- Location
- USA
I do find it incredibly endearing that Taylor thinks that she needs to be the big sister leader for Rika and Ritsuka.
I wonder how many instances of successful (or failed) Servant/Master interactions it will be before Taylor realizes that maybe she should let the kids take the lead and she can support best she can.
At least its looking like Taylor is a much better Master than Akuta Hinako.
Then again, that's a laughably low bar...
I wonder how many instances of successful (or failed) Servant/Master interactions it will be before Taylor realizes that maybe she should let the kids take the lead and she can support best she can.
At least its looking like Taylor is a much better Master than Akuta Hinako.
Then again, that's a laughably low bar...
Taylor's social skills and tactical skills are way better than you're giving her credit for. Sure, there are many servants that wouldn't respond optimally to her style of communication, but there are many she'd work very well with, and her tactical skills are, at least at the moment, far above that of the siblings.
- Location
- USA
Saving humanity isn't just about the skillset, but the mindset and the character of the person.
Ward explores this better than Worm, if you've read it.
Taylor's not 100% in terms of being the "right person to save the world", she's closer to Wodime or Goetia in that regard at this point in the story. Roman has already commented on this last chapter.
Rika and Ritsuka don't have the skillset yet (inexperienced), but assuming their FGO characterization holds they have the capability of growing into that person without breaking like Taylor.
That's the contrast I'm paying attention to at least. Let's see how it goes~
See, now if you'd said that in your first post, I probably wouldn't have said anything at all. I think she is closer to being Wodime. It was the comparison to Akuta that made me go "full stop, you are not giving Taylor enough credit." I know you said that she's much better than Akuta, but you undermined it by mentioning that this was a low bar.
I feel like you're kind of missing the point.
Silvan Eldar
Delinquent Heir to Makai
- Location
- Here and There
Raikou's an odd example, given that as Ushi Gozen she more or less orchestrated both the Rashoman and Onigashima singularities.
There's also stuff like Goddess Rhon actually damaging Chaldea while firing Rhongomyniad at Mash, Chaldea's Ibaraki being able to smell the remnant of Tomoe Gozen in the Babylonia Singularity while in Chaldea, and most recently Hokusai's swimsuit spirit origin just deciding to show up in Chaldea as her own entity.
It, uh, kind of depends. Like, Sefar is referred to as the 'White God of Destruction', but it's not really a proper divinity. In contrast, the Olympians who are also alien constructs (well, technically Titan Altera is an alien data-based lifeform who turns into Sefar, but meh) accepted the worship of humans and the role of gods, and when their mechanical bodies were destroyed they became Divine Spirits. Similarly, Arcueid in Fate/Extra is an off-shoot of the Moon's 'brain' that was naturalized as an elemental by the Planet.
So, for Scion to be counted as a god in a manner more meaningful than "Insert Chuuni Title here", Scion probably would've needed A. Human worship and to have accepted such or B. to be naturalized by the Planet as a divinity.
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Garreon
Paldean Top Champion
- Location
- Mesagoza, Paldea
Yeah, i know, im simply being pedantic.
I think the real issue is layman's speak vs technical language. Like if I called Scion a god, I'm not being literal, but there's not much practical distinction for me when you consider the power he has. Dude can remove planets from the census so god-like and actually-a-god might be different in the nitty gritty details, but as a monkey on the ground it would matter very little to me. It does become problematic if people are attributing godhood in mechanical discussion, an anti-divinity attribute would not be of any utility against Scion because he's not divine likewise a divinity check would be an issue that Scion would have to work around because, once again, he's not divine. Things blur the line a bit though when people discuss Heroic Spirit Taylor Hebert, Godslayer because that gets into legends. Taylor never had to actually kill a real god; people just have to believe she killed a god, and laypeople don't have to have the correct definition. As far as the masses are concerned "if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and purged entire continents from the planet like a duck then it's a
- Location
- Void
It wouldn't be hard to imagine that Zion was worshiped, given the Fallen Worship Endbringers, and considering that his form was literally meant to appeal to all of Humanity. It would be more surprising if he didn't have cults.
That and a lot of the broader things an Entity does could be equated to an Authority in effect rather then exact function or process. But realistically Zion's death has way too many moving pieces, ie people involved, and Taylor literally became a banned topic post-worm.
So realistically her legend may be in memory but it certainly won't be recorded or past down by Parahumans, especially the minor detail of a knife. As where, what it does, and how she got the knife will be forgotten eventually.
That and a lot of the broader things an Entity does could be equated to an Authority in effect rather then exact function or process. But realistically Zion's death has way too many moving pieces, ie people involved, and Taylor literally became a banned topic post-worm.
So realistically her legend may be in memory but it certainly won't be recorded or past down by Parahumans, especially the minor detail of a knife. As where, what it does, and how she got the knife will be forgotten eventually.
Why complicate things? Entities can be strong enough to rip Gaia, such as Sefar. Also, Sefar had destroyed several of Gaia's counterparts before.
Silvan Eldar
Delinquent Heir to Makai
- Location
- Here and There
Sefar doesn't destroy the Planet, it just kills civilizations.
TimeDiver
Herald of Dis Lev
- Location
- In-between the parallel worlds...
Er, it does do the second closest thing, though...
It figuratively consumes / absorbs every landmass, leaving only empty, lifeless oceans behind.
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