Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

That's a common issue in FSN stories.
Starting Premise: A weak, wimpy modern human summons a Heroic Spirit that is inherently superior in every way.
Shirou cheats this a bit, but it still comes down to extreme efforts just to land one hit.

It's further aggravated by the FGO model: Summon more and more heroes, making the cast bigger and bigger until the Master is a tiny bit part giving encouraging speeches. But not as well as Leader Heroes.
It's designed as a collectable game, not a literary setting.

Taylor finishes this off by having the fatal flaw: not being a Shounen Protagonist.
It would feel weird and unnatural for her to pick up a spear and start out-fighting the Servants.

She also can't really engage the Servants the way Ritsuka and Rika do.
Too untrusting, not friendly enough.

Put it all together, and she would need exceptional powerups just to avoid falling behind completely.
Yeah this is going to get worse before it gets better. Note the way Tay is hyper aware of Fou and vice versa. I'm betting its because Khepri is a Beast IV candidate. Its like a snake ans a mongoose in the same room. Just like how Kiara ana Kama/Mara clash with each other. They have the same core concept but there natures are fundamentally incompatible.
 
That's a common issue in FSN stories.
Starting Premise: A weak, wimpy modern human summons a Heroic Spirit that is inherently superior in every way.
Shirou cheats this a bit, but it still comes down to extreme efforts just to land one hit.
This isn't quite true. HS in F/SN were much more reasonable and weaker than in FGO (where the power escalation gets outright silly, especially if you treat ascensions as canon), and none of them had god mode on. Take Assassin in Zero who is on the lower end of the Servant scale, well-trained, experienced mages can and did kill parts of them without too much problem, even while normal humans and average mages would have died horribly. There's also Soujirou, who completely clowns on Saber (admittedly nerfed due to a shit master and no mana), effortlessly with nothing but mere basic ass physical enhancement from Medea and no other assistance. The same can be said for anyone in canon capable of killing the stronger Dead Apostles, which is a surprisingly large category. I also distinctly remember Kotomine fighting Assassin in HF and winning against him, due to not having a heart for his NP to work on.

Anywho, the point being the entire Nasuverse is all about exceptions for their central characters, and for good reason, said uniqueness, said talent is what allows them to bridge the gap from tertiary spectator and cheerleader to central actor, and be able to deal with specific matchups in certain scenarios by being advantaged so. Whether it's Sakura's corrupted grail allowing her to be anathema to spiritual and human beings, UBW and memory mirroring with Archer rapidly accelerating Shirou's capabilities and closing the gap with utility in lieu of power and win against Servants in certain situations, or Shiki's MEoDP letting them kill the unkillable, it's all functionally the same in that it shifts their role given certain circumstances. Here, it's even more important, after all what's even the point of the story if the central character becomes progressively more and more irrelevant to the point where they may as well exist? Fawkes seems to have forgotten that crucial aspect. Without it, you're essentially retreading canon with a few alterations here and there while Taylor watches. I mean, despite everything she's gone through and all her qualifications and experiences, she's instead just stuck LARPing canon Ritsuka.

Yeah this is going to get worse before it gets better. Note the way Tay is hyper aware of Fou and vice versa. I'm betting its because Khepri is a Beast IV candidate. Its like a snake ans a mongoose in the same room. Just like how Kiara ana Kama/Mara clash with each other. They have the same core concept but there natures are fundamentally incompatible.
It's pretty indubitable that Taylor was a Beast candidate of some kind, Khepri is really a textbook example. Whether she's still one, or a latent one are entirely different questions. I just don't think she's IV in particular, she seems apt for Collection, or Control, but not Animal or Nature really. I'd expect all Beasts would have that same ultrasensitivity toward their ilk.

Honestly, Taylor going Skitter demiservant is one of the few ways I can think of, somehow, to fix things long-term, something quite possible given a, no one has ever summoned themselves, and b. The Throne is disconnected from time and space, and doesn't require them to be dead to summon them, unless they're utterly immortal and will thus will never wind up on the Throne in the future, ala Scathach. Like, any ideas on what she could do in, say, Babylonia without it? Escalation is kinda key here on Taylor's side, given FGO also escalates like mad, like imagine rolling arc 2 right now, complete with TYPEs and full-powered gods.
 
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The other problem is that Taylor's set up is just not very Compatible with the Singularity stuff due to having to improvise swarms and not having the Utility ones to just do stuff with in the background causing her to not have the tools needed to engage at all with her swarm in that manner

Alongside the Size of the areas they cover and at
Rider servant speeds

It's kinda like a Tinker who keeps getting kidnapped and then has to restart the Tinker cycle repeatedly with some exceptions

Though I am halfway suprised she hasn't set up her uniform to have those tuckaway spots to have Bugs secreted away specificly for if she runs into useful Bugs and would also probably work to have them transfer with her

Though doing a reread she tend to do Alot better whenever they are anywhere even Vaguely urban
Which makes sense
 
OK still not fully in this thread as what I'm waiting for to be told about this story has neither been confirmed or denied, but since we are back to the "Is Taylor a Beast?" question. Yes Taylor is a Beast Candidate.

She is going to have deal with the fact that she qualifies for Beast III at some point. Remember Taylor both only saved a world of her own making and enforced the desires of humanity on an alien mind. She was both supremely selfish and narcisistic and someone who qualified for the Savior class at the same time while fulfilling the desires at the time of all of humanity not to be annihilated. She is still like that.

Taylor's Logos is Lust and Survival. And Survival can be a fusion of Lapse and Rapture especially when one lapses in their desires and raptures as part of a greater whole that saves them all. Her Nega-Skill would be what she did there at the end as Khepri, something like Nega-Freedom.

Edit: Expect Zepar to show up earlier than canon.
 
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She was both supremely selfish and narcisistic and someone who qualified for the Savior class at the same time while fulfilling the desires at the time of all of humanity not to be annihilated. She is still like that.
You're being a much less charitable than I think you should be for Taylor, especially pertaining to selfishness, I mean, literally killing yourself to save humanity when they were getting completely and utterly bulldozed with zero expectation for survival isn't exactly selfish on any level, in fact you could say much of what she does has a selfless intent. Regardless I think you've mistaken what a Beast actually needs to be a candidate. Remember, pretty much all the shared logos aren't revealed for Beasts, and Lust isn't exactly what I'd point to when it comes to her dominating trait. If you think about it, from both her perspective and QA's, Control and possibly Survival is the only thing that truly makes sense for her. Everything she's done has ultimately looped back to attempting to gain control over her life and her world in an endeavor to make both better. Survival works with QA as well, given shard nature, as does Taylor, given her sheer inhuman grit (e.g. merging with an eldritch computer the size of a planet for weeks without losing sight of her goals). Ryuugi has an interesting analysis on Taylor, something I'm quite a fan of.

Anywho, Beasts, at their root actually only need two things - an alien or inhuman perspective, combined with a love for humanity, something that fits very well with Khepri.
One qualification to manifest is a "love for humanity." Evils of Humanity act not out of malice towards humanity, but rather threaten humanity through an underlying desire to protect it in a manner. Their pursuit for a future more favorable threatens the peace of the current world.[10] The manifestation of this love is not always apparent, ranging from the lingering desire of a mother to not be overcome and abandoned for the growth of humanity,[11] loving oneself, the only human in the world,[12] and wishing for humanity's demise while yet loving them as another species of animals that exists as part of nature.[13]

Some Beasts naturally manifest within the Class through their way of being, while others go through a growth period. In the case of Goetia, his Class was determined through "with what he had achieved and more" in terms of the Human Order Incineration.[14] In the case of Tiamat, her Class was determined by her "real nature."[11]
 
I can't help but feel that Taylor, despite having a significant impact early on, has pretty much decreased in relevance - first to the mentor to the heroes, and now is little more than a viewpoint narrator witnessing other people do the deeds.
On that front, while I, unlike some other readers, am fine with Aife, perhaps it would have been better were Taylor still the one training the twins instead of her. From a story involvement standpoint, at least.
 
You're being a much less charitable than I think you should be for Taylor, especially pertaining to selfishness, I mean, literally killing yourself to save humanity when they were getting completely and utterly bulldozed with zero expectation for survival isn't exactly selfish on any level, in fact you could say much of what she does has a selfless intent. Regardless I think you've mistaken what a Beast actually needs to be a candidate. Remember, pretty much all the shared logos aren't revealed for Beasts, and Lust isn't exactly what I'd point to when it comes to her dominating trait. If you think about it, from both her perspective and QA's, Control and possibly Survival is the only thing that truly makes sense for her. Everything she's done has ultimately looped back to attempting to gain control over her life and her world in an endeavor to make both better. Survival works with QA as well, given shard nature, as does Taylor, given her sheer inhuman grit (e.g. merging with an eldritch computer the size of a planet for weeks without losing sight of her goals). Ryuugi has an interesting analysis on Taylor, something I'm quite a fan of.

Anywho, Beasts, at their root actually only need two things - an alien or inhuman perspective, combined with a love for humanity, something that fits very well with Khepri.

You do get that Taylor's behavior throughout Worm is based on her pretending to be a good person even in front of herself?

Whenever she had the chance to be tested on her goodness she folded/failed. Taylor understands the theory of what it takes to be a good person, to the extent she could even qualify for the Savior Class in the Nasuverse, but in her actions she always chose to go with either a knee-jerk response to her own beliefs at the time being challenged or with protecting hers and her own first.
 
Whenever she had the chance to be tested on her goodness she folded/failed. Taylor understands the theory of what it takes to be a good person, to the extent she could even qualify for the Savior Class in the Nasuverse, but in her actions she always chose to go with either a knee-jerk response to her own beliefs at the time being challenged or with protecting hers and her own first.
Eh, I disagree, and there are good reasons for that. Ryuugi essentially argues my point for me, I'm not going to bother rewording it.

I mean, Taylor says exactly what she regrets, just a bit earlier in Extinction 27.2, and the answer is sort of both:

I stared down at the roughly circle-shaped patch of darkness in the center of the room. "You made sacrifices, you made sacrifices on the behalf of others, and you made the hard calls, but it was all for something greater. I bet you think you won't have any regrets at the end."

"It's been some time since I lost sleep because of a heavy conscience," the Doctor said.

Weld gripped the railing hard enough to make the wood splinter explosively.

"I know what that's like," I responded. "I've walked down that road. Maybe not so ugly a road, but I've gone that route. All the way along, I told myself it sucked, but I wouldn't do it differently. I did everything I did for a reason. Except now, having reached the point I was working towards, I finally do regret it all. The last two years, the way I treated my teammates, leaving the Undersiders… I'd change it all in a heartbeat."

But she also makes clear that she wouldn't have left the Undersiders.
...

Well, first and foremost, if she hadn't met Xifeng, Taylor would have spent the last twelve years functionally alone and powerless in Shardspace, as is the inevitable fate of all Parahumans, with Taylor's biggest trauma being about isolation and being trapped--but even putting that aside, the default ending of Worm, putting aside what Wildbow said about the possibility of her just being in a coma or something, is that Taylor ends up losing everything except her father, functionally plopped down in a different world where no one knows them, and sent to live her life thus, and...two years later, the world starts to end again, with the Kronos Titan probably just suddenly appearing in Brockton Bay a few weeks before to kick things off, and there's nothing she can do about it.

For this and many other reasons, being in a bad place is kind of Taylor's default state of being--but that's kind of a flippant answer, isn't it? And it incentivizes ignoring the causes, too. So let's boil this down to the key issue, and then talk about why.

All throughout her life, both in Worm and now, Taylor is repeatedly faced with complex situations and makes choices that she goes on to regret in at least some capacity, only to do similar things again and again and again. It'd be easy to say that she doesn't learn from her mistakes, but the truth is slightly more complicated than that, so let's instead examine a different question; why doesn't Taylor change? And the answer is pretty straightforward:

Because she is consistently rewarded for not changing. Time and time again, she's faced with difficult choices, whether between being a hero and being a villain, obeying orders or disobeying orders, trying to work with other groups or going at things alone or with only her clique--and time and time again, in ways both subtle and gross, being the villain works. Her power rewards her for it, she effectuates change in a manner at least resembling what she desired, she finds herself in positions where she's happy and treated with respect, etc.

Conversely, she's punished for trying to do things the 'right' way, in whatever capacity that exists. As a hero, she struggles against a system that's specifically been undermined and is now trying to undermine her, when she obeys orders everything goes wrong, and when she tries to work with other groups, she's rejected at best and people consistently try to kill her. Probably the best team partnership experience she had was the alliance to take down the ABB, after which, basically every attempt went terrible in some fashion, whether in Coil being himself, Armsmaster nearly getting her killed against Leviathan, the Yangban seemingly destroying their defensive line (because of Simurgh context she doesn't know about) and kidnapping wounded capes, everyone refusing to work with them during the S9 fights and then outright trying to kill them. Even cases where people theoretically did work well together, like the hunt for Jack...minus Saint, are tragically undermined by, well, the fact that they failed right afterwards.

And, of course, Gold Morning. Or really, Gold Week, I suppose, since Gold Morning was just the final battle. To start with, they partially open the Birdcage, people coordinate with each other, they prepare as best they can, and then it's everyone vs. Scion!

Scion wins, fyi. The first time, I mean, on the oil rig. It goes pretty quickly, for reference, like one of those old Mike Tyson fights, only imagine his opponent is a starving four-year-old blind girl with leukemia--and after that, everything falls apart, with groups infighting and preying on each other while the world is ending.

You know what works, though? Crushing everyone to your will and acting like Darkseid with the Anti-Life Equation.

Pretty consistently throughout Worm, the way that leads into Taylor's reoccurring issues and behaviors turns out to be the right way, by virtue of working. I've seen people complain that it's even too much the case--that if the story or Wildbow's Word of Gods* or what have you wanted to say that Taylor was going to far, that she was in the wrong, that decisions she made during the warlord days and Gold Morning both were fundamentally incorrect, that there should have been better options, others should have been shown as more reasonable, and she should have had points where she was shown that alternatives did exist and were also effective, when that's just kind of not the case.

And to an extent, I kind of agree with that, even? I think the story would have benefited from making it so that Taylor was challenged more on her morality, simply because I'm completely okay with Taylor being morally dubious, but a whole bunch of the situations people point to her doing bad stuff in are undermined by the fact that either nothing else was working or that everyone else sucked. Not to rag on the Ward arc, but I'm going to rag on the Ward arc, because it sucked, it was probably the worst arc in Worm for a bunch of reasons, a big one I think being the fact that it's mostly pointless. Last year, Wildbow posted this:

After Coil falls and Echidna is dealt with, there isn't another immediate crisis. She knows the team can deal with problems, things are stable. There's no new intense situation to run to that forces her to compartmentalize & optimize, she hasn't just set off a chain reaction of events. There's just the distant crisis of the world ending that she's not equipped to face as a warlord (and in fact, having to handle warlord stuff might get in the way of that, with the grind and details of managing things), she can put institutions in check on the small scale but the PRT as a whole is something too big to change but also corrupt and insufficient (with Tagg exemplifying this). What they've done as the Undersiders is fragile.

Which I think highlights one of the big issues with the arc, namely the fact that she doesn't do any of this with the Wards, either. Taylor joining the Wards was built up as this huge event in story; after the death of Alexandria, she has to join or the Protectorate risks crumbling apparently, and then she joins and--does busy work, mostly, until Behemoth attacks. The PRT undermines her and the Protectorate doesn't trust, so she really doesn't accomplish much of anything until Behemoth, where she's the video perspective on the most important Endbringer fight there is, and the higher ups still talk about hiding her, like that should even be a goal at that point. Even once Khonsu shows up, the only reason Taylor gets invited to the shadowy cabal to save the world--where she also makes a major difference with the Thanda--is because Lisa asked for her to be. There's no point in that chunk of the story where Taylor gets treated like she's making a difference, essentially, where it would have done a lot, even if Taylor eventually left, if it was shown she was making headway and accomplishing things and being respected and such not. Instead, well...it doesn't feel like she accomplished much of anything at all there.

But on the other hand--

I also thing it works, in a way. Or, at least, that it's tangential to working. And to explain why, let's talk about three obviously related things--Zuko, diablerie, and demon-summoning.

Everyone knows who Zuko is--or you should--but for those who don't know what diablerie is, it's a mechanic from Vampire: the Masquerade, which I think is the perfect temptation mechanic. Long story short, Vampires have a power mechanic that's vital to everything they do, which they cannot change through conventional means, all decided by their generation; fundamentally, a Tenth Gen vampire just cannot achieve the same heights as, say, an Eighth Gen Vampire, and there's nothing he can do about that...except, of course, diablerie, wherein he murders a more powerful/older vampire, consumes them completely, and rises in power. For a variety of reasons, this is extremely taboo in Vampire society, and very hard to hide, but...

Well, there's a but. Because even with that, playing a vampire, at some point you're going to think about it. Ways to do it, to hide it, to get away with it--because even with the downsides, damn if it isn't tempting.

The reason I bring this up in the context of Zuko (and demon-summoning) is...there's a reason Zuko has kind of become the modern archetype of a redemption story, and part of that is his great writing, amazing animation and voice acting, his interplay with Iroh, and the fact that Avatar was just incredible all around--but I think a good chunk is also because of the end of Season 2 into Season 3 where...Zuko gives in. He betrays Iroh's trust, he does the bad thing, and he gets everything he wanted. And it's not perfect, sure, because Azula, but he was told that if he caught the Avatar, it'd restore his honor; he caught the Avatar and his honor was restored and he was made a prince again. He got what he'd been chasing. It cost him a lot, too, and he found it wasn't worth it eventually...but he got it.

This brings us to demon-summonig. Or, I say 'demon-summoning,' but this is a Xianxia story, so you can sub in 'Unorthodox techniques,' too, or indeed, any dark route to power, because they have the same narrative role, wherein fundamentally, demon-summoning needs to be powerful in a story where it's at all relevant, or whatever replaces it needs to be, or it fails at it's purpose. It can be brutal and costly, but it should be a route to real power, because if it's not, if its worse than not doing it, then there's no moral quandary to it or temptation to use it, and therefore, you aren't taking any kind of moral stance by refusing to do it, in the same way that if you choose to use a computer instead of a typewriter, it doesn't say anything about you as a person. A lot of stories botch this in execution, arguably including Worm if in a different way than the norm by botching the consequences instead, but if it's meant to be a bad and tempting thing, you have to make it bad and tempting.

I bring this up because in a lot of ways, it's good that Taylor doing things her way gets results, as it leads her into doing those things again and it being understandable why. Taylor does cruel things, brutal things, obsesses, goes to far, and so on, and while the result is never perfect, she does get what she wants by doing so, and I think that's important. There are stories to be told about the struggles of repeating self-destructive behaviors, but for a story about doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, it's important for that option to exist, and the biggest way, the most important way, this resonates is with Khepri. Because all through Worm, Taylor tries to bridge a gap and get people to work together, and you see this all over Worm. It's set up and knocked down again and again, whether with Armsmaster or the PRT refusing to work with them against the Nine and hoping they die when the bombs drop or them refusing to respond in full to Echidna to sending the Dragoncrafts after the Undersiders instead of the Nine or any other villains, and many others. She tries to get them work together and it seems to work for a minute and then falls apart.

What's more, everywhere there's a divide between reality and the ideal. Taylor wants to be a hero, but heroism has already been fundamentally compromised by Cauldron, who essentially run and shape society in a general sense, and heroes exist to support that status quo, so she turns to villainy to effectuate change. Effectuating change breaks the Status Quo, though, so they target the Undersiders above many others, trying to destroy them, first with Dragon, then Dragon again, with bombs and subterfuge, with Tagg and Alexandria, and more. She wants to have both a cape life and a human life she can be happy with, but she isn't allowed that; she wants power, respect, and the ability to fix Brockton Bay on one side, but still wants family on the other, but inevitably, she can't have both. She wants to handle her immediate issues--Dinah, Coil, Tagg, Brockton Bay in general--and the long-term issues like the World ending without losing what she has, but she can't do that, the world won't let her.

--If not for Gold Morning, she might have gotten a Way like Duality, in the specific sense of 'the division of something perfect only in Unity,' wherein the division is inherently self-destructive, because that self-destruction is what she saw again and again. Taylor's power grows stronger when she feels isolated and trapped, and it's not a coincidence that it hit a point pretty early in Worm where it was maxed out all the time.

But Gold Morning did happen and she found out that there was a way to make everyone work together, to bridge that divide, to fix it, and finally make things work--and it's by making sure there's no divide, no discussion, nothing in her way. If people won't choose to work together, don't give them a choice; if they fight against you, crush them; if they refuse to fight, make them--anything that gets in the way, destroy; anything that holds you back, cast away; anything that resists, break.

If you do that, it turns out, you can even save the world. And love it or hate it--and Taylor hates at least parts of it--if you know that's true, you can't escape that knowledge. Taylor has a proven solution to her problems, from the small scale of becoming a warlord to the large scale of becoming a mad god, and there's consequence, but she can't make that false, can't escape the thought of it, and can't just shake her flaws and issues, because they're made true by the world, they follow her wherever she goes, and there's always the hope, the possibility, the option, the reality. That it's not justice that saved the world, or the spirit of cooperation, or human decency, or even the species' drive to survive--it was her iron-fucking-boot on the throat of the world that saw it through the end of days.

And no matter what she does, that knowledge shapes her destiny--the knowledge that it works. It wasn't her open hand that saved the day, it was her clenched fist.

*I'll just say it--I think a lot of Wildbow's WOGs about Taylor, after the ending of Worm, are kind of...I don't want to say something mean, but I've never seen an author ignore so much context about their own work. Like, this one:

Taylor, throughout the story, has warred against institution and authority. She started her journey being bullied and criticized those who abused or didn't deserve power.

In the end, she became an institution and bullied her enemy to death, using cheated power; power she gained and then used unjustly and cruelly, strongarming others.

I just feel like we're forgetting an important series of events that were on-going at the time, you know? Like, anyone who thinks Taylor's moral clean in all her decisions is delusional, she makes a bunch of brutal, terrible decisions--but Gold Morning was not one of them, because the fucking world was ending. If you want that decision to be morally dubious, present clear alternatives in story and/or don't make the decision so massively, wildly successful on every front, you know?
 
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I think that's overstating things a bit. Nobody forced her to take in a bunch of orphans or to endanger her secret identity by rescuing Charlotte, a girl she didn't even like and considered complicit in her bullying.

Of course, claiming she never failed would also be very wrong.

You are missing my point here and that is:

Eh, I disagree, and there are good reasons for that. Ryuugi essentially argues my point for me, I'm not going to bother rewording it.

*stares* @Cookiesndip could you please make better quotes in the future?

Anyways this post of @Cookiesndip about what @Ryuugi may have said talks a lot about how Taylor constantly had it reinforced to her that cooperation and bridging a gap don't work in most cases and especially just plain doesn't work in cases involving people in power and/or with authority.

Taylor saves Charlotte and befriends her and the orphans, but they are powerless at that point and Taylor is free from the interference of power in her desire to be a Hero so she just is one.

Like she has been so far in this story because now that she is working for Chaldea, a place where heroism is a desired quality, Taylor doesn't have to be the warlord. Yet as the interlude Interlude R(F) I: Shelob's Lair and the Chapter after it Performance Review showed Taylor still has all the skills she used in her time as a Cape and is fully comfortable in using them when she deems them necessary.

This is my point and why I'm arguing that Taylor is a Beast Candidate, and that she qualifies for Beast III and not an L or an R, because she is fully capable of working with people and loves humanity even at her worst, yet because of her own personal experiences when pushed into a corner and left alone and without allies, which is what is going to happen in the London Singularity because that is the place where shit hits the fan and Goetia manifests for the first time, she will default to becoming the warlord again and at the same time sacrificing herself for the whole of humanity and subsuming them into herself to protect them better at the same time.

I did get the Demon Pillar she will fuse with wrong though: It's Orobas, who in canon F/GO is one of the two Demon God Pillars that shield heroic Spirits as the Temple collapses, and whose powers include giving one power and control over others, protecting from persecution by evil spirits and one's enemies, foretelling the future and discerning the past and present and also being the Patron of horses.
 
In the singularity that takes place in the middle east, specifically as they visit the egyptian part. Would there be a chance/possibility of khepri trying to manifest as a demi servant in Taylor
We've seen that the divine spirits taken on traits of their hosts at least but also that Taylor was capable of maintaining an ego when QA had a large brain link. (During a highly stressfull period, with now having the experience and a relatively recovered, rested and calm mind)
How much of the resulting personality would be our Taylor, would she still be the main person or would she bend under the weight of Khepri
 
Regardless, the ones who reasonably qualify are the Triumvirate, Hero, Taylor (complete with Skitter/Weaver/Khepri/end Taylor forms, christ Taylor qualifies for pretty much every main class but Saber and Lancer), Vicky, Amy potentially, Contessa (seen as a boogieman), Jack Slash, Bonesaw, Sphere/Mannequin, a few foreign capes like Moord Nag, and some others. I doubt Lisa would qualify, though, she just didn't accomplish much herself, and more importantly, stayed in the background. Lung neither, he might be notable from a local level, but he achieved jack shit, sure he fought Leviathan and lost, but that's pretty much it. Furthermore, given Parahumans existing, the standards for actually reaching it would be higher, being immortalized in the Nasuverse principally requires them to be moldbreakers and to rise above and beyond their contemporaries..

The no modern servants thing is more just to prevent lawsuits to my understanding. For instance people want the finnish sniper the White Death to be a Servant, but the forget the man's death is relatively recent and he has living relatives.

As for worm characters that would qualify, add Theo and Defiant to that list.

When it comes to people important to stopping Scion, it comes down to three. Taylor, Colin and Theo.

Taylor did a lot of organization.(as well as being a world famous warlord)

Colin led the creation of and fired the weapon that scion let kill him. (and was world famous)

Theo led the creation of the false Eden which drove scion to suicide which allowed the blow to land. (not to mention he stopped jack)

Colin and Theo definitely qualify for the throne.
 
Theo definitely qualify
Ehhh. Colin is maybe, but he was mostly a local hero, sure people knew he existed and he lead some Endbringer fights, but never made any headway and fucked up with the nanothorn, so it's not a point in his favor in any way, shape or form. He's not exactly anywhere near as influential as, say, Dragon either, and didn't actually accomplish much in Worm beyond the most local of levels, so I'm very iffy on him. However Theo definitely doesn't make the cut, he simply neither has sufficient notability or actual deeds to make it, let alone differentiate himself from any other Ward in the setting. Sure, he did one thing, but, ultimately, contributing in the fight against Zion isn't really a deed in his own name, since they were all puppets to Taylor for the fight, kind of like how a sword ordinarily doesn't get to be a Heroic Spirit, neither should he. Even if he were free, it isn't enough, he's still a nobody, and the whole 'let's never talk about GM ever again' damnatio memoriae-esque treatment of GM certainly doesn't help. When the heroes and villains present think back, the only people they'd truly remember or fear from that fraccas while being puppeted for much of the fight are Khepri and Zion, I doubt Armsy or Theo even make the list.

I forgot to add Dragon to the list, she definitely qualifies. Of course, this is coming from someone that avoided Ward like the plague due to how stupid everything becomes, Armsy may have done enough then.
 
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This is my point and why I'm arguing that Taylor is a Beast Candidate, and that she qualifies for Beast III and not an L or an R, because she is fully capable of working with people and loves humanity even at her worst, yet because of her own personal experiences when pushed into a corner and left alone and without allies, which is what is going to happen in the London Singularity because that is the place where shit hits the fan and Goetia manifests for the first time, she will default to becoming the warlord again and at the same time sacrificing herself for the whole of humanity and subsuming them into herself to protect them better at the same time.
I legit had to sit on this aaaaannd yeah... it makes sense to me. Taylor being a Beast Candidate would explain a lot. And her being Beast III would tackle her biggest flaws. And what a coincidence, Ritsuka just finished the Tower which gave him Ultimate Bro Edward Dante who protects him from Mind fuckery. Considering that Goetia instigated the tower event in canon because he could and was present. I wouldn't be surprised if he is responsible for unleashing Beast III like he unleashed Beast II. It would make sense too since it's explicitly stated that every Beast we've seen has come as a result of Goetia's direct or indirect actions.
 
Ehhh. Colin is maybe, but he was mostly a local hero, sure people knew he existed and he lead some Endbringer fights, but never made any headway and fucked up with the nanothorn, so it's not a point in his favor in any way, shape or form. He's not exactly anywhere near as influential as, say, Dragon either, and didn't actually accomplish much in Worm beyond the most local of levels, so I'm very iffy on him. However Theo definitely doesn't make the cut, he simply neither has sufficient notability or actual deeds to make it, let alone differentiate himself from any other Ward in the setting. Sure, he did one thing, but, ultimately, contributing in the fight against Zion isn't really a deed in his own name, since they were all puppets to Taylor for the fight, kind of like how a sword ordinarily doesn't get to be a Heroic Spirit, neither should he. Even if he were free, it isn't enough, he's still a nobody, and the whole 'let's never talk about GM ever again' damnatio memoriae-esque treatment of GM certainly doesn't help. When the heroes and villains present think back, the only people they'd truly remember or fear from that fraccas while being puppeted for much of the fight are Khepri and Zion, I doubt Armsy or Theo even make the list.

I forgot to add Dragon to the list, she definitely qualifies. Of course, this is coming from someone that avoided Ward like the plague due to how stupid everything becomes, Armsy may have done enough then.

That's just... wrong though? For one, Theo was leading the charge with stopping scion with psych warfare far after Taylor stopped controlling them. Heck, I don't believe Tsylor even actually controlled him throughout the fight. She was focused entirely on fighting, not psych warfare, and she explicitly left certain people alone.


Theo was also someone the entire protectorate had their eyes on since he came to the scene, and was the person leading the charge against the Slaughterhouse Nine. In one chapter he faced an entire team of s9 clones by himself with no help where Taylor needed a full team to do the same. Not to mention it was his plan that stopped Jack, not Taylor's.

Add in the fact that so many people were following him, Victoria in ward straight up admits to knowing about him when they meet for the first time.

Theo isn't just famous, he's important to how things progress. Vital actually.

And if characters like aviceborn, shitonai, sanson(who is only known because he was an executioner. And less him and more thst there were executions), Eric blood axe, and fucking jaguar man can get on the throne, Theo definitely can.

Not to mention, you forget fame is only one factor, achievements are as well. Hassan for instance are explicitly NOT known about because otherwise they would be terrible assassins. They're on the throne for their deeds rather than their fame.

If it's both fame and deeds that are important then a character hailed as a rising star of the Protectorate, famously took down one of the world's most prolific serial killers and was vital to the death of what was essentially an alien god would definitely qualify for the throne of heroes.

Edit: as for Colin, he was definitely not just local. Colin was very famous and well known. Why do you think the protectorate went to such lengths to cover up his actions? Colin was mentioned within the same breadth as the Triumvirate, Chevalier and Dragon. Heck he was regarded as the second best tinker too.

Not to mention he didn't fuck up with nano thorns, he invented them. The only problem he really had with them was the heat which he eventually solved.

And if your talking about what he did during Levi instead, that's not a reason he wouldn't be on the throne. Morality has never been a factor for servants. Jack the ripper for instance. Heck, Cu Chulainn was a r##ist and killed his own son. Heracles killed many innocents. Morality isn't an issue for the throne.
 
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Hassan for instance are explicitly NOT known about because otherwise they would be terrible assassins. They're on the throne for their deeds rather than their fame.
They are on the throne because they were each a leader of the Order of Assassins, founded by Hasan-i Sabbah

As individuals they are unkown, but their group is considered a probable origin of the word assassin. So yes, they got in through fame.
 
They are on the throne because they were each a leader of the Order of Assassins, founded by Hasan-i Sabbah

As individuals they are unkown, but their group is considered a probable origin of the word assassin. So yes, they got in through fame.


Fair enough, but that doesn't change the fact that Theo and Colin are both really famous and really important when it comes to earth bets history on multiple levels.
 
Not to mention, you forget fame is only one factor, achievements are as well. Hassan for instance are explicitly NOT known about because otherwise they would be terrible assassins. They're on the throne for their deeds rather than their fame.
Not exactly, I think you're seriously lowering the bar in terms of what is actually necessary to reach the Throne even in the Nasuverse, and I think you're overblowing the notability, say, dealing with a mere notable serial killer would yield. This is especially so in a Parahuman world where the concept of heroes and villains are outright normalized to the average person. To make the Throne you have to be more than a man, more than a 'strong' or renowned Parahuman, you have to break the mold of normality entirely. You'd have to essentially be a symbol or larger than life for good or ill, you have to have influence in history, you have to have accomplished enough and/or been thought to have done so while being known to enough people. Theo, eh strong disagree on that.

It helps massively if there's a certain level of myth or mystique to you and your history as well, just like what Taylor wound up with, without that element it's far harder to make the cut. Consider that HF and UBW Shirou never reaches the Throne, and merely stopping Angry Mango, killing Berserker or Archer and Gil, and everything they might do in the future isn't enough to qualify since only a minor segment of the population knows this, even moreso since Rin downplayed his role in the HGW, since a reality marbe is a one-way-ticket to a sealing designation. Most modern HS are also weak as fuck and barely make it due to shitall Mystery, though Parahumans may change that.

Your example of Vicky knowing about Theo isn't really a point in your favor, they're both local heroes. Most heroes and villains in BB would know, say, even Brandish's or Purity's name, it's not particularly unique. I dunno about Ward, but I see it as essentially a non-canon fanfic, partly due to power inflation memery to the point of utter absurdity and SoD-breaking, and generally shitting on Worm at every viable moment.

Hassan is kind of a bad example, because ultimately they're all known as Hassan-i-Sabbah, and only one of them - the Old Man on the Mountain is actually truly and properly on the throne, the rest are mere wraiths and candidates, the lack of a distinctive identity and the use of a pseudonym prevents them from becoming a distinct heroic spirit to the original. They're known by deed, story, and myth the latter arguably being more important, and sure, their identity might not be known, but ultimately you're just summoning the Old Man on the Mountain who then kicks a random Assassin out instead of letting himself be summoned. They're also literally the origin of the word assassin, and at least in F/SN and F/Z, you can ordinarily only summon him since the very class name is a catalyst.
 
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She is going to have deal with the fact that she qualifies for Beast III at some point. Remember Taylor both only saved a world of her own making and enforced the desires of humanity on an alien mind. She was both supremely selfish and narcisistic and someone who qualified for the Savior class at the same time while fulfilling the desires at the time of all of humanity not to be annihilated. She is still like that.

Taylor's Logos is Lust and Survival. And Survival can be a fusion of Lapse and Rapture especially when one lapses in their desires and raptures as part of a greater whole that saves them all. Her Nega-Skill would be what she did there at the end as Khepri, something like Nega-Freedom.
What the fuck?

Sorry for the question, of course, but are you sure you read Worm? Because it takes effort to miss Taylor's personality so much.

Taylor wasn't trying to be a "good person", she was trying to do something that didn't happen to her, aka: "Absolutely Nobody came to my aid. So if there were no such people in my environment, then I need to become such a person."

But let's go in order.

It all started, of course, with bullying from the trio. Initially, Taylor tried to fight this through teachers and school administration. Happened? No, the teachers and administration ignored her, or even accused her of seeking attention, and the trio, in response to trying to fight them, escalated the situation. Let's remember the keywords that are tied to these events: Inaction, Authority and Status Quo.

Then Taylor decided to just endure their bullying, because sooner or later they would stop, right? Once again, failure, the trio escalated even further, and Taylor became part of not only their ridicule, but also the ridicule of the group of sycophants they surrounded themselves with. No one from the student community comes to her aid and, on the contrary, she becomes a pariah, creating a status where any outside help ends in an attack from the trio. Keywords: Inaction and Status Quo.

Finally, the end of the epic with bullying — Locker. The three lock Taylor in her locker filled with sanitary waste in front of a large crowd. Taylor screams, hits the locker and asks for help. According to canon, Taylor was locked in a locker for several hours (from 2 to 6), a huge number of people heard her screams and attempts to get out. The only ones who were with her were insects. Help comes after Taylor has been triggered twice, and not because of her and her pleas for help, by that time she was completely catatonic, but because some random janitor smelled the smell from the locker and got to work…
Subsequently, the school completely hushes up this matter, taking advantage of Danny's stupor, forcing him to agree only to Taylor's treatment, and when Taylor returns to school, she is already known as the Locker Girl. She received abilities, but the surrounding situation never changed. The main keyword is Inaction.

The trigger greatly influenced Taylor and instilled in her a personality trait that became fundamental to her future story: The desire to help people so that they would never be in the same situation as herself. So that there would be a person next to them who does something for their sake, and does not just sit on the sidelines and watch their suffering. Do at least something, even if it only leads to disasters, still act.

And having such a desire and newfound abilities, Taylor chooses the only path according to her experience, opinion, and knowledge — to become a Hero. She decided to become a hero not for the sake of "selfishness and narcissism", no, by this moment the Trio had hammered into her head that she was nobody and her life was worth nothing, which is why she did not start fighting with them after receiving her abilities, but for the sake of, so that others would not go through the same horror of indifference and inaction that she went through.

And her entire parahuman career confirms this:
Lung? She could simply ignore him or call the protectorate, but not interfere herself. Hell, your assessment of her being "selfish and narcissistic" doesn't apply to this situation at all, since Taylor refused to take any credit for him, she was just glad she survived and saved some kids, even if they were villains.
Undersiders? She decided to infiltrate them because she still believed that the Heroes were doing at least something useful and helping people, and not supporting the Status Quo created by the Cauldron.
War with ABB? She was in the forefront of seeing how the PRT refuses to work with the villains in order to defeat literal terrorists, and when the villains do defeat ABB, they immediately take all the laurels for themselves, although they did not even lift a finger to solve the problem.
Leviathan? Oh, this was the greatest revelation for Taylor, how much Heroes are no different from Villains, and that both are complete assholes who care more about their personal situation than helping others. And then there was another jab at your characterization of Taylor's "egocentricity and narcissism," because she literally rushed at LEVIATHAN in hand-to-hand combat, being a master, in order to at least slightly delay him from attacking a Bunker full of people. And she did this not for her own sake, but because these people needed help and in this situation, there was practically no one who would be ready to stop the leviathan at any cost, so that these people would survive, and you know what's interesting? Taylor doesn't remember this anymore. Because she helped them, and she doesn't want to try to somehow exploit this fact.

The post Leviathan Brockton Bay further convinced Taylor of the correctness of her idea. Taylor returns to the Undersiders and begins to play a double play. On the one hand, she pulls resources from Coil, helping the remaining residents of BB, and on the other, she tries to become so valuable to Coil that he will let Dina go + just in case with Lisa, prepare to eliminate Coil completely, Taylor at least hopes that this will work, but this is Coil, it's better to be safe.

An interesting event occurs here when Sierra complains that her brother went to the Merchants and Taylor decides to help her, because there is no one else who could do this, saving Bruce and Charlotte, for one thing helping Faultline's Crew.

And then Nine comes. All the players remaining in the city gather to discuss this issue and… The Protectorate is not going to do anything with them. They don't want to risk provoking a war with out-and-out psychopaths because "it would be bad and would upset the Status Quo."

Taylor doesn't like this and does what she has already learned — she acts and begins the fight against the "invulnerable" Nine. First she wants to disrupt their recruiting plans, then she disrupts Shatterbird's song and finally fights with Mannequin and, with Gru's support, kills Burnscar. From this point on, they begin a full-fledged war with the Nine, breaking the Status Quo and forcing the Protectorate to act. The Protectorate, of course, wants to restore the Status Quo and bombs not only the Nine, but also the Undersiders allied with them, but in the end, Taylor manages to neutralize the attack with Bonesaw Prions and put the Nine to flight.

Next comes the destruction of Coil and a very important moment in Taylor's story, where she, faced with the choice of whether to leave Dina or return her, decides to act and returns her to her parents. This is an significant point that we need to remember.
Then there was Echidna and Taylor's introduction directly to the bureaucracy and corruption of the Protectorate and the PRT, how they try to remain inactive in the face of a major threat and how little they differ from the villains.

And finally, there comes a whole series of "revelations" regarding the PRT. How much they are ready to fight with violators of the status quo than with problems of status (Dragon Drones against the Undersiders, not the Nines), any attempts to restore this status, even if the villains do not pose a threat to society (Tagg and all his actions with Alexandria's instigation), and even the fact that when a problematic element of the status quo needs to be removed, it is still not discarded (Alexandria, which seems to have completely discredited itself, but at the same time somehow manages both the PRT and the Protectorate).

During these events, Cafeteria and "Cut Ties and Sorry" also comes. The moment when Taylor deprives herself of all the advantages she has won for the sake of a meager chance to improve the situation with the Apocalypse and admits to herself that she does not feel like a hero, but will still help people.

And at the end - Golden Morning. And I'd better leave this part for retelling to one of Ryuuji's posts:
(post inself)
On the subject of the morality of Taylor's actions throughout Gold Morning, I have several thoughts. Several people have already commented things I agree with regarding the morality of doing something, period, but more importantly than that--I don't think the argument is valid to begin with, if I'm being honest. Partially because any argument about finding a better solution is inherently Doylist in nature, asserting she should have or could have found something she didn't find in the story, but even more pressingly than that, Taylor didn't find a solution in Khepri to begin with, Khepri only allowed her to find the real solution, which was an entire process on its own.

Let's be clear about a few things here, too. Khepri wasn't her first choice, nor was it even the first drastic, out their solution they tried. The first thing they, as in the combined alliance of Those Who Aren't Dead Already, did was open the Birdcage. They let out some of the worst, most dangerous criminals in history and gave them anything they wanted as long as they helped take down Scion. They told String Theory to use the gun she once built to knock the moon out of orbit and scale up. They gathered their heaviest hitters, made a plan, attacked from range at first to distract him, hit Scion with the biggest gun to ever gun--

Scion went 'How rude; why would you do that?', immediately arrived at their location afterwards, and promptly killed everyone. Round One: Everyone vs. Scion; everyone loses.

Round Two: Eidolon and Glaistig Uaine team up. The two strongest Parahumans in the entire world unite against Scion, and what's more, Eidolon realizes the thing he's been missing and learns how to refuel his power again. He builds himself back up, rising back to heights he hasn't touched in decades, and hits Scion with a forty-eight hit combo of the best tricks he's ever used. They hurt him, get him on the run, and even follow after him in a chase across dimensions--

Scion gets tired of it. Or more, it gets to the point where Scion decides it's more efficient to pay the cost to use his I Win Button rather than continue fighting conventionally, and does so. Eidolon promptly vanishes in a puff of logic (and gore) and Glaistig Uaine runs for her life. The net gain from this fight was realizing that Scion has 'Winning' as a power and can use it if he feels the need. The loss is, uh, Eidolon and most of the people on the oil rig, including a healthy chunk of their heaviest hitters. Taylor gets cut in half, as an aside, but she gets better.

Round Three: The Endbringers. On the sliding scale of Too Crazy vs. Not Crazy Enough, opening the Birdcage had pretty obvious been the latter, because it didn't work. Taylor brings up the idea of recruiting the even worser of the worst, the Endbringers, functionally the heaviest hitters remaining, and they manage to do so, more or less. Taylor and her group recruit the Simurgh--a lot of people forget this, apparently including Wildbow, but a separate group recruited Leviathan, who they don't meet until after he destroys the Elite, but they team up, put down some targets that are causing trouble, and, uh, a wild Scion suddenly appears. He wrecks their shit, fyi. They lose more major players in the process; Gavel dies, Crane dies, anyone who's power does literally anything to Scion dies, because as they quickly learn, he targets and murders the biggest threats on the battlefield first. This turns out to be an ongoing issue with making plans against him; anything that shows any sign of working promptly dies. The Simurgh shows up and hits him with a completely ineffectual air gun, probably for this exact reason, and he smacks her around a bit. He tortures King of Cups, who second triggers, and a pair of Teacher's students allow everyone to see and remember the trigger vision.

It's informative. Not super useful, sadly, because mostly it informed them of the Entity's process, namely that they used precognition to see and counter any potential threats, Scion specifically making himself functionally unbeatable unless he chooses to lose, and they're all basically fucked otherwise. Worsening matters, the portals stopped working, because the Irregulars decided to abandon the fight and fuck with Cauldron, which, hey--you could kill most of Cauldron to applause, but the only guy they actually took out was the one everyone needed, so thanks Irregulars. This leads into...

Round Four: Cauldron's obviously been keeping secrets and the Portal Network has gone down, and Taylor's come to terms with the fact that she's completely useless on the front lines here, so she tells Legend she's going to find Cauldron, figure things out, and hope they have some kind of plan. And she does, amidst the Irregulars and Vegas capes being traitorous fuckwads, and it turns out there is a plan. It's to throw an army of Parahumans at Scion--an army that Scion murders casually off-screen later this arc, which is unideal, but, hey. There's a backup plan to try and help the scattered remnants of the devastated humanity, if they survive to do so, and a more immediate plan to to take one of the emergency vials they've kept squirreled away and hope it does something. Neither of these plans really work out, sadly, but Taylor asks about second triggers, which Cauldron theoretically has the ability to manufacture, if Contessa's around, which she currently isn't. They can scan for second triggers, too, which Taylor's already had one of, so it's not an option for her anyway. Then Scion shows up and they nearly die, discover Eden, stuff happens, etc.

This leads into Round Five and the point of all this: Khepri. Taylor asks someone to give her brain surgery and see what happens, because they're that deep in the hole and Taylor's pretty damn sure that she's useless in a fight as is, so hey, let's roll the dice. It affects her power, sacrificing her range and control of bugs, but giving her a short range of control of humans, including Parahumans, whatever their form. She weighs her options and soon realizes that her power works through Doormaker's portals, and decides to leverage that to assume Direct Control, and leaves to do so.

And what happens then is why I say the argument on morality is flawed to begin with, because Khepri herself is not the solution, she is just able to find the solution. See, Taylor tries at first, and let's be fair, she does a good job, but Everyone vs. Scion, Electric Boogaloo, only goes better than the first round because less people die. Again, being fair, a lot less people die--the casualties under Taylor's control are pretty miraculous, really. I counted them once, and I think less than fifty die under her command? I'd have to find that old post to be sure, and I don't feel like it right now, but Taylor does a great job on that front--but fundamentally speaking, Scion's practically unaffected. They don't hurt him, they can't hurt him, because no matter what they do, they're taking at best person-sized chunks out of a continent. Like, Scion isn't casually murderizing everyone anymore, which is great, but nothing they do is really hurting him, either. Taylor steals and throws the combined Nuclear arsenals of two hundred Earths at him while locking him in a dimension and he shrugs it off. She builds a gun to hopefully break into his well, trying to do some damage, and it fails outright. Fighting him is a losing battle no matter how coordinated they are.

The idea that Taylor doing this might have created a hole in their defenses or opened up a critical weak point is ridiculous and irrelevant, because beating him in a battle of force or attrition is completely impossible to begin with, and that's the only plan the defense had. Scion can tear through any defense, work around or ignore any attack, and he has winning as a power if he feels like using it. Taylor at one point hits him with every ranged attacker she has, minus Foil, and Scion moved slight, and that's it. They cannot fight him, they cannot resist him, they cannot survive him, unless he allows it, because that's how he built the system.

But.

Taylor's four-dimension perspective during the fight--granted by Clairvoyant, her natural senses through her bugs and minions, and countless Thinkers--allows her to make some important observations, many discovered entirely on accident, and several miracles then allowed her to find a solution.

First and foremost--I'd like to remind everyone that realizing Foil could hurt Scion was an accident. Because Foil can hurt Scion--or more accurately, open Scion up to a followup that could hurt him--because for that very reason, Scion set his Path to Victory to activate any time she attacks him. This had happened earlier, in a prior fight, where Foil had attacked him, Scion had promptly destroyed the projectile, and immediately attacked Foil right back, which she only survived because Parian picked her up and threw her like a baseball far enough that Taylor wasn't sure she'd survive the fall. She doesn't look like a weak-point, essentially, because Scion will immediately counter anything she does and if she's in range, kill her, and even if she's not, he hits to devastating effect. But something happens, you see; Taylor attacks him with every ranged Cape she has and he avoids every single hit and counters in a way she can't avoid, killing thirty capes; used it again and he found her; Foil tries to use it later and he blasts her hand. But later, Taylor chooses to remove several people she knows from her control, entirely for emotional reasons, including Foil. After she does, in a moment of desperation, she tries to hit him with everything again, expecting it to fail...and it works.

Taylor knows she didn't add anything to her arsenal--but she'd taken something away and it was Foil.

Another thing she learns is Scion's weakness to emotional attacks. Lisa and Panacea make a fake Entity that gives him hope for a moment, crafting it out of Bastard and Rachel's power, and Scion gets excited for a moment, until he realizes it's a ruse. This sets him up for followup attacks to that weakness, which Taylor also figures out how to exploit by monitoring his reactions to powers--Changers, which she'd originally deemed useless against him, for example. But here's the thing; the fandom likes to portray this as an off-switch for Scion, something that immediately shuts him down--in reality, the fake Entity made Scion so mad he murdered an Endbringer immediately afterwards, and crippled three more to the point they can no longer fight, something the entirety of Parahuman society had literally never done prior to that point; Behemoth at his most damaged was still fine. He then followed after into New York, and according to Ward, where fifty-ish capes died under Taylor's direct control, approximately a third of the army dies between when Doormaker shuts down and Taylor regains effective control via Canary. It pisses him off and no one has a real way to survive that directly.

Another thing Taylor gets is the Gun. The intended purpose for it failed, so she put the Tinkers on autopilot to make something useful out of it--and they made a really big gun. Taylor had no idea this would be useful later, vital even, but hey, it was. And realistically, you also needed Khepri, or something like her, to get you into a position like this, because the biggest issue about gathering information on Scion is that anything that works at all, he immediately kills. To gather information without taking even more losses--and after five days or so, the Parahuman population was down to five thousand, two hundred and twelve parahumans, plus a small handful Taylor hadn't taken--you need some nigh-omniscient portal-making commander, because you cannot survive direct confrontation with Scion unless he lets you go or ignores you. And as a final aside--Glaistig Uaine was ready to interfere to keep Scion alive, all throughout this.

So the solution to Scion, it turns out, is to have someone who can play 5D Chess while simultaneously winning a game of Miracle Bingo. Because Taylor does a good job, a great job, a phenomenal job as the commander of an army fighting a guy they can't hurt who can wipe they out at will and instantly win at anything he chooses, which is to say only a small number of people dies during a relatively prolonged battle. But even doing all that, the key to winning turns out to be figuring out that Foil is the key, while using her as little as possible because Scion will kill her and/or you if you do; realizing that his vulnerability is attacking him emotionally and coordinating well enough to, uh, survive while doing so; figuring out that certain Changers are a key element in this and bringing them into play in the right time and place, with the understanding that these guys literally can't do a thing to Scion except emotionally and probably know that; have a weapon on hand that can destroy a continent because Foil's Sting doesn't actually do anything to Scion himself, per se, it just opens the portal to his real body so you can follow up with something if you have it on hand, which is something literally no one knew until it happened with only occurred because of the prior points; see all this and keep your army alive and be able to bring the right pieces into play at the right times, ideally through stuff like portals; and also, make sure Glaistig Uaine doesn't fuck it up at the last second. And if you're missing any of these things? Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars.

And Taylor managed that while going increasingly insane, picking up on the right pieces of evidence, formulating a plan, coordinating the right people, and adjusting to unknowns and changing circumstances on the fly--but at no point did Taylor smirk and go 'All according to keikau!' Taylor was not a brilliant mastermind throughout Gold Morning, she was constantly scrambling to get by and survive. Scion has her in his clutches at one point, even, and is planning to kill her friends to torment her, and it's only the emotional decision she made to remove Foil from her control that allows her to survive there at all, but all through out the fight, Scion looms, he is steps behind her as she runs, he crushes her attempts on by one, he's furious and getting closer at every moment.

Under those circumstances, Taylor did a better job than anyone's ever done at anything, even putting aside the amount of luck it took. Keeping as many people as she did alive, juggling and responding to circumstances, gathering information, etc.; she did great, and it's silly to say something like 'she should have done better' or 'she should have found another way.' It's a miracle she found the solution she did, and she only found it about two-thirds through an ongoing battle with a god. The longer Scion was active, the more people died, and they already down to five thousand Parahumans by the time she started this plan, with Taylor watching a video of Scion killing an army and crippling Khonsu on the fight over, having recently fought through Cauldron's base, having had her arm crushed by Sveta, and then having Lung burn it off. And she did this while going crazy. In need everyone to remember that the immediate after math to killing Scion wasn't applause, it was silence, as everyone filed slowly back in, waiting and struggling to believe they really, actually won.

A big theme of this story is cribbed from Persona 3, in a way, more specifically the Kirijou Group's motto that 'Two in Harmony Surpasses One in Perfection.' But I think in this particular case, it's important to remember is another saying; done is better than perfect. It was day five of the Apocalypse and Parahumans had been cut down from a population measures in hundreds of thousands to thousands, with Mankind having been culled to a similar extent, which was on-going with every moment that passed. Literally no one had a plan that they had any idea would work and based on what Taylor found, they were three to five major revelations away from one, and the only way to find or test those methods involved fighting Scion and being anally devastated in the process. Taylor made those discoveries and closed the knowledge gap to formulate a workable plan and then executed it in, what, an hour or so? Less?

She did a ridiculously good job and the complaint that she didn't do better is ridiculous. Short of praying to Jesus and having him come down to do it instead, Taylor already did orders of magnitude better than anyone could reasonably expect from someone in ideal conditions, and she did it while going crazy an hour after having her arm burned off. Could the story have been written differently so that there was a better way or that she found a better solution? Sure, but it wasn't, and by that logic, it could have been written so that she could just make Scion's head explode, too. Under the circumstances that actually existed, she did incredibly.
Taylor was never about Survival, Selfishness, or Narcissism.

It has always been about the issue of Action and Inaction. About maintaining the Status Quo or breaking it in order to help people.

Taylor has done immoral things many times, like threatening the Mayor and Triumph, the death of Tag and Alexandria, and she accepts that this is bad.But she also understands that inaction is pointless. And that foremost, she must do something, because only she must pay for her actions.

This is the essence of Taylor - action and payment for these actions with one's own, and not someone else's life/fate/labor.

If we talk about what Taylor's Beast Number will be, then in my opinion, 3 is not suitable.

From the canonical numbers, Taylor, in theory, is suitable for the role of Beast 1, because both of the beasts known to us were the real Rulers of Humanity and Taylor in this regard is not far behind them, because, like them, she is clearly one of the best candidates for the role a leader who will lead humanity to prosperity, due to her personal traits, aka the desire to help people at any cost and the willingness to pay the price with her own life or efforts.

For the role of Beast 4, I would choose not Taylor, but Queen Administrator, because she, like Shard, is an ardent fan of collecting/gathering information, and she is already very impressed with Taylor, both thanks to Taylor's actions and thanks to the mind meld.

Beast 5 is unknown, so there is nothing to say about it.

And finally, hear me out - a crazy theory about Beasts 7, and why Taylor/Khepri will be the bearer of this particular number.

The theory is based on 4 facts from the Nahui Mictlan singularity:
1) U-Olga Marie is Beast 7, as a continuation of the Alien God.
2)She has a unique passive skill, Defender of Humanity C.
3) According to her, when she was fighting with the Grand Servants, she was struck by Excalibur, but instead of causing damage to her, it strengthened her several times, as the instruments showed when comparing her powers from Mictlan with the powers in Olympus .
4) The Alien God, being created by Chaldea, according to Marysbury's plan, was able to change the paradigm of humanity and become the basis of humanity, which is why Alaya is now on his side, and we have to go through the Calls of Ordeal in order to prove that we are humanity after all.

My theory is the following - all the Beasts 7 are the Beasts of Alaya, in the manner of the fact that Fou is the Beast of Gaia and their task, in conditions of absolutely complete fucked-up, is to save humanity's life, even under the condition of a serious change in the nature of humanity, which is why they all have Defender of Humanity skill of various ranks. And thanks to this skill, Excalibur, being a weapon that should protect humanity, will strengthen these Beasts, since they are the last line of defense for the survival of humanity, in conditions of absolute defeat.

And Taylor/Khepri, being a candidate for the Beast, as well as the savior of a significant part of the iterations of humanity from a mad alien god, is a Beast of precisely this type.
P.S. Sorry for the errors and possibly difficult to read and poorly coherent text.
 
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Not to mention, you forget fame is only one factor, achievements are as well. Hassan for instance are explicitly NOT known about because otherwise they would be terrible assassins. They're on the throne for their deeds rather than their fame.

If it's both fame and deeds that are important then a character hailed as a rising star of the Protectorate, famously took down one of the world's most prolific serial killers and was vital to the death of what was essentially an alien god would definitely qualify for the throne of heroes.

They are on the throne because they were each a leader of the Order of Assassins, founded by Hasan-i Sabbah

As individuals they are unkown, but their group is considered a probable origin of the word assassin. So yes, they got in through fame.

Hassan is kind of a bad example, because ultimately they're all known as Hassan-i-Sabbah, and only one of them - the Old Man on the Mountain is actually truly and properly on the throne, the rest are mere wraiths and candidates, the lack of a distinctive identity and the use of a pseudonym prevents them from becoming a distinct heroic spirit to the original. They're known by deed, story, and myth the latter arguably being more important, and sure, their identity might not be known, but ultimately you're just summoning the Old Man on the Mountain who then kicks a random Assassin out instead of letting himself be summoned. They're also literally the origin of the word assassin, and at least in F/SN and F/Z, you can ordinarily only summon him since the very class name is a catalyst.

OK. So a few things:

- The Assassin Class is artificial. It was created by the Von Einzbern family during the creation of the Grail. So they, aside from their founder, are not good examples of who makes it to the Throne.

- A lot of the members of the Round Table of Camelot are Servants and will show up in this story. Nothing says that Taylor is the only one who earned her place on the Throne. It's more likely that the Shardspace might be keeping the human souls of capes in most cases trapped and not able to reach the Throne.

- The Throne of Heroes only holds Heroic Spirits in itself, but can be used to summon Servants who are other types of Spirits if they have a connection trough it which is why some Divine Spirits, Counter-Guardians, Wraiths and other kinds of Spirits can be summoned as Servants as well.

- Wildbow is one of those weird unself-aware writers that can write incredibly human characters on any side of their story with full empathy and sympathy to their actions and then turn around and fail to have enough empathy and sympathy for their audience to understand how what they wrote is read.

In his mind Wildbow wrote a villain protagonist, but since Taylor's villainy is based in a tragedy of utterly insane and horrific circumstances and not in normal everyday life most readers disagree with Wildbow's thoughts that Taylor will stay the same and not try to snap back to the heroic behavior she displayed any time she was not under extreme pressure of said insane and horrific circumstances.

Which Wildbow wrote as an in story reference point to how much Taylor's heroism is being ground down as the story of Worm progresses, but most of the audience reads as Taylor trying to be the Hero she wanted to be any chance she can get away with it and in most chances she can't but doesn't yet know she can't.

P.S. Sorry for the errors and possibly difficult to read and poorly coherent text.

I understood your argument well enough, I'm just confused why you think it is in any way a reply/rebuttal to mine. Nothing you or @Ryuugi have said there contradicts my point.

I'm especially confused by your statement that:

Taylor wasn't trying to be a "good person", she was trying to do something that didn't happen to her, aka: "Absolutely Nobody came to my aid. So if there were no such people in my environment, then I need to become such a person."

because in my book "Absolutely Nobody came to my aid. So if there were no such people in my environment, then I need to become such a person." is someone trying to be a good person.

Oh also on this character trait of Taylor's you've described:

The trigger greatly influenced Taylor and instilled in her a personality trait that became fundamental to her future story: The desire to help people so that they would never be in the same situation as herself. So that there would be a person next to them who does something for their sake, and does not just sit on the sidelines and watch their suffering. Do at least something, even if it only leads to disasters, still act.

We've just had a long and for some a very boring arc of Taylor wrestling with her desire to do at least something, even if it leads to disasters, and she did not act and averted the disaster of either her or Ritsuka dying. Which this story treats as character development of Taylor's part in that she is starting to trust that the Fujimaru Twins can fight their own battles.

Edit: Some spelling fixes.
 
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The Assassin Class is artificial. It was created by the Von Einzbern family during the creation of the Grail. So they, aside from their founder, are not good examples of who makes it to the Throne.
The hell are you smoking? An artificial class wouldn't get a Grand Servant, because the regular seven classes are based on the Grand Servants.

If you're gonna make a claim that far out there, I'm gonna need a source to back it up.
 
The hell are you smoking? An artificial class wouldn't get a Grand Servant, because the regular seven classes are based on the Grand Servants.

If you're gonna make a claim that far out there, I'm gonna need a source to back it up.

The only source I've used for that specific claim of the Assassin class being artificial is Fate/complete material III. I don't actually have that one here and now and it's been awhile since I've read it Edit: so I might not be remembering correctly (which if I actually thought that I wouldn't have brought it up, but I should list the problems with my claim as much as I can imagine them to save us both time) and on top of that it might have been retconned and no longer applies as cannon background information.
 
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Your example of Vicky knowing about Theo isn't really a point in your favor, they're both local heroes. Most heroes and villains in BB would know, say, even Brandish's or Purity's name, it's not particularly unique. I dunno about Ward, but I see it as essentially a non-canon fanfic, partly due to power inflation memery to the point of utter absurdity and SoD-breaking, and generally shitting on Worm at every viable moment.

What are you talking about? Theo isn't a local hero at all. Golem made his debut, and stayed in, Chicago. Which is in Illinois. Most place Brockton Bay in Massachusetts, but either way it's somewhere in New England. Add to the fact that Vicky was in an asylum for a lot of the first years Theo was a hero.

No one in BB would know who Golem was if you were right and he was obscure. But he expressly wasn't. He was quiet famous.
 
because in my book "Absolutely Nobody came to my aid. So if there were no such people in my environment, then I need to become such a person." is someone trying to be a good person.
This was a response to the statement you made above:
You do get that Taylor's behavior throughout Worm is based on her pretending to be a good person even in front of herself?

Whenever she had the chance to be tested on her goodness she folded/failed. Taylor understands the theory of what it takes to be a good person, to the extent she could even qualify for the Savior Class in the Nasuverse, but in her actions she always chose to go with either a knee-jerk response to her own beliefs at the time being challenged or with protecting hers and her own first.
Taylor does not behave/pretend to behave like a "good person" in the conventional expression of Earth Beth, because a "good person", in her experience, is inactive and tries to maintain the Status Quo and therefore this person is "good".

Instead, Taylor simply tries to act for the benefit of others, although not with good methods, because, in Worm, these were the only methods that actually worked.

Being a do-gooder who tries to redeem an enemy, making friends with everyone possible and never making sacrifices that might harm anyone is a sure way to die in Worm.

And yes, the rules have changed, because this is a Crossover, but the problem is that no one explained this to Taylor, for her, her previous life has not changed in any way, and as the practice of the Lost Belts has shown, this experience will come in handy for her.

It's just that the conditions of the Singularities were not yet so scrupulous about mistakes and did not yet present such a moral dilemma, so in my opinion, retraining Taylor in order to then send her to hell again is not the most reasonable action.

And so, we don't even get into the types of Ethics, where you seem to assume that Taylor is bad at being a Deontological person, but at the same time you do not take into account her unconscious success in being a Consequential person, which, in fact, made her the greatest Hero and the greatest Monster of multiple worlds.

We've just had a long and for some a very boring arc of Taylor wrestling with her desire to do at least something, even if it leads to disasters, and she did not act and averted the disaster of either her or Ritsuka dying. Which this story treats as character development of Taylor's part in that she is starting to trust that the Fujimaru Twins can fight their own battles.
To be honest, it looked very painful and unnecessary. It's as if James just took Taylor and began torturing her in the most painful way possible, trying to change her despite what makes her, her.

It was extremely pointless and counterproductive, and I can see why he did it, but it doesn't change the final result ending very poorly.
 
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