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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

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New RAM cards in, everything running smoothly. Nox is even running better than before, no stutters or audio glitches. And I still have a large buffer of free RAM to give me comfortable room.

I'll have to see if this improves my FGO streaming. It's been a while, so maybe this Sunday, I'll do a late night quickie to cover the new event story once it unlocks.

I now return you to your speculation about the meaning of future chapter titles.
 
Now I know I'm not going to bother with Part 2. Not without seriously reworking Avalon le Fay.

Because Nasu has seriously fucked up with Morgan's backstory. I can even see what he was trying to do — just like the Skadi-Scathach connection theory, he tried to incorporate the Morgan-Morrigan connection theory, and it really doesn't fucking work when you're talking about a single, cohesive narrative rather than a disjointed collection of stories written by dozens of authors over the course of three or four centuries. In order for Morgan le Fay to be Morgan, Artoria's conniving sister, Morgan, Artoria's loving half-sister, and Vivian, Lady of the Lake and Artoria's closest ally, she would have to inhabit three different roles simultaneously. As in, at the same time at the same point in the sequence of events that is Artoria's life. Morgan would, quite literally, sometimes have to be in two or more places at once. She would simultaneously have to be plotting Artoria's downfall at Camlann and waiting to receive Excalibur back at the end of the battle. She would have to be Mordred's mother at the same time as she was sending Lancelot off to join the Round Table. She would also have to be almost twenty years Artoria's senior in order for her kids to be 20-ish at the time of Artoria's Round Table, which would be really hard on poor Igraine in a time when living to 50 was considered old age.

It's just too messy. It doesn't work when Artoria isn't a 60 year old king sitting back on his laurels while the kids go off and have adventures. The timeline just doesn't work out.

There are reports that Nasu wrote all of Lostbelt 6 in something like 6 months. It definitely shows. This is all stuff that a good editing pass from his team should have caught and come back to tell him to rethink it.

Come to think of it, a lot of the Arthurian stuff in Nasu gets pretty fucky when you try and figure out the timeline. In order to fit the original timeline of 10-15 year long rule for King Arthur, Galahad would've been, like, 12 when he grabbed the Grail and fucked off.

I dunno, a lot of it is I just feel cheated. I was waiting and hoping we'd get a good Nimue/Vivian reveal in Lostbelt 6, and instead, Nasu went, "Surprise! Morgan is Vivian!" And it doesn't feel clever or cool, it just feels stupid and contrived.
 
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James D. Fawkes said:
Now I know I'm not going to bother with Part 2. Not without seriously reworking Avalon le Fay.
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One thing to bear in mind is that we're dealing with the Lostbelt versions of these characters.

Another thing you can do to address that issue is to...

...make Nimue/Vivian the part of Morgan that is still heroic, aka the part of her that was sealed off/faded away when she transformed into Morgan the tyrant from Tonelico the Savior. And, to throw the huge monkey wrench into LB6, have Nimue manifest within Taylor as soon as she gets to Fae Britain due to their connection (aka Taylor using Nimue's powers in Essence of Silver and Steel).

Where you take this plot device and how it will be entangled in the plot of LB6 is ultimately up to you.

Also, for one last-minute mindfuck, have Oberon drop constant hints that he knows about Taylor's story -- not Essence, but canon Worm. After all, that is his resentment.

Or just make Nimue/Vivian the panhuman history equivalent; only Lostbelt Morgan has this duality with Nimue/Vivian, in PHH, they're still twin sisters.

Alternately...

You can have Taylor summon Morgan and her Fae Knights as early as Camelot, and at the climax of Solomon, she loses her link with her Servants and they return to the Throne.

The huge twist here is that when Taylor/Nimue arrives at the British Lostbelt, Morgan and her knights REMEMBER HER, and remember her well.

Now you've got a plot that is well and properly derailed.
 
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Wait, you're only now starting to realize that the things that Nasu injected into the Arthurian myth literally can't make sense with arthurian myth?

Shocker.

I know people love Saber/Artoria as a character in the Nasu-verse, but it is the biggest thing that drives me nuts. What was done in order to turn her female literally doesn't make sense, and breaks most of Arthurian myth. And for the plot of fate/stay night (and it's various incarnations) it was completely unnecessary, from a narrative perspective.

Edit: This came off snarkier than I intended. But it's my biggest 'WTF Nasu?' moment out of everything else in Nasu-verse.
 
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James D. Fawkes said:
Come to think of it, a lot of the Arthurian stuff in Nasu gets pretty fucky when you try and figure out the timeline. In order to fit the original timeline of 10-15 year long rule for King Arthur, Galahad would've been, like, 12 when he grabbed the Grail and fucked off.
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There's a fairly simple solution to the problem: Timeline branch merger. We already know that timelines split off from each other at various points, but if the differing courses of events (eg. different Knights) ultimately come to the same conclusion (eg. Camlaan), those timelines would merge back together, no? The world only has so much energy to spare, after all, and it's more energy efficient to simply merge close-enough timelines back together to form a semi-cohesive whole than to discard them. This would neatly explain why there are so many contradictory accounts of things, such as how there can be 56+ different Knights of the Round Table despite there being only twelve seats.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Now I know I'm not going to bother with Part 2. Not without seriously reworking Avalon le Fay.

Because Nasu has seriously fucked up with Morgan's backstory. I can even see what he was trying to do — just like the Skadi-Scathach connection theory, he tried to incorporate the Morgan-Morrigan connection theory, and it really doesn't fucking work when you're talking about a single, cohesive narrative rather than a disjointed collection of stories written by dozens of authors over the course of three or four centuries. In order for Morgan le Fay to be Morgan, Artoria's conniving sister, Morgan, Artoria's loving half-sister, and Vivian, Lady of the Lake and Artoria's closest ally, she would have to inhabit three different roles simultaneously. As in, at the same time at the same point in the sequence of events that is Artoria's life. Morgan would, quite literally, sometimes have to be in two or more places at once. She would simultaneously have to be plotting Artoria's downfall at Camlann and waiting to receive Excalibur back at the end of the battle. She would have to be Mordred's mother at the same time as she was sending Lancelot off to join the Round Table. She would also have to be almost twenty years Artoria's senior in order for her kids to be 20-ish at the time of Artoria's Round Table, which would be really hard on poor Igraine in a time when living to 50 was considered old age.

It's just too messy. It doesn't work when Artoria isn't a 60 year old king sitting back on his laurels while the kids go off and have adventures. The timeline just doesn't work out.

There are reports that Nasu wrote all of Lostbelt 6 in something like 6 months. It definitely shows. This is all stuff that a good editing pass from his team should have caught and come back to tell him to rethink it.

Come to think of it, a lot of the Arthurian stuff in Nasu gets pretty fucky when you try and figure out the timeline. In order to fit the original timeline of 10-15 year long rule for King Arthur, Galahad would've been, like, 12 when he grabbed the Grail and fucked off.

I dunno, a lot of it is I just feel cheated. I was waiting and hoping we'd get a good Nimue/Vivian reveal in Lostbelt 6, and instead, Nasu went, "Surprise! Morgan is Vivian!" And it doesn't feel clever or cool, it just feels stupid and contrived.
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Ugh.
Okay, Morgan le Fey has a lot of roles depending on who is telling the story.
She's a fairy.
She's a human trained by fairies.
She's a human trained by Merlin.
She's Arthur's youngest half-sister and Guinevere's arch-enemy. And the boss of the Green Knight.
She's Arthur's eldest only half-sister and his arch-enemy. And the mother of several knights of the round table.
She's the ruler of Avalon.

But the ruler of Avalon is also the Lady of the Lake who is also Vivien or Niniane or Nimue.
Who raised Sir Lancelot and his cousin's; gave Arthur Excalibur; was killed by Sir Balin; demanded Sir Balin's head; was courted by, trained by, and killed/sealed away Merlin; and who took Arthur to Avalon.

So... while there's precedent to combine all of these traits... it's stupid.
 
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SoulShdw said:
I know people love Saber/Artoria as a character in the Nasu-verse, but it is the biggest thing that drives me nuts. What was done in order to turn her female literally doesn't make sense, and breaks most of Arthurian myth. And for the plot of fate/stay night (and it's various incarnations) it was completely unnecessary, from a narrative perspective.
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Arthur being female doesn't inherently break the narrative in Nasu. We don't actually call Merlin a dick wizard for his personality or his incubus heritage.
 
buli-buli said:
Ugh.
Okay, Morgan le Fey has a lot of roles depending on whose telling the story.
She's a fairy.
She's a human trained by fairies.
She's a human trained by Merlin.
She's Arthur's youngest half-sister and Guinevere's arch-enemy. And the boss of the Green Knight.
She's Arthur's eldest half-sister and his arch-enemy. And the mother of several knights of the round table.
She's the ruler of Avalon.

But the ruler of Avalon is also the Lady of the Lake who is also Vivien or Niniane or Nimue.
Who raised Lancelot; gave Arthur Excalibur; was killed by Sir Balin; demanded Sir Balin's head; was courted by, trained by, and killed/sealed away Merlin; and who took Arthur to Avalon.

So... while there's precedent to combine all of these traits... it's stupid.
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It's just too messy. There's a rule in fiction writing, that you don't make six characters where one will do. But this takes that way too far, and it removes nuance from her character by reducing everything to, "Actually, she was just fucking nuts, because she was three different people living in one head."
 
James D. Fawkes said:
I dunno, a lot of it is I just feel cheated. I was waiting and hoping we'd get a good Nimue/Vivian reveal in Lostbelt 6, and instead, Nasu went, "Surprise! Morgan is Vivian!" And it doesn't feel clever or cool, it just feels stupid and contrived.
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Eh, remember the number one rules for Type Moon fans as once spoken by the almighty Gigguk.

"Don't worry about it."




Seriously though, Fate lore had never made much sense.

Nero was supposed to be married and have kids, but there she is suddenly a girl and desperately looking for a good man to start a family with because, for some godforsaken reason, she's never had any family before except for that one ma she killed and the uncle that went mad howling at the moon. Attila was supposed to be a guy, but then she was actually a magical girl who was born from that one super alien from outer space hell bent on world destruction before it got Excaliblasted in the face and had it's fragments scattered, with one of them transforming into the titular Attila - new name Altera which she found cuter - and the other fragments also does a bunch of other stuff like giving Charlemagne some superpowers and used by the Olympian Gods to make some super steroid.

Just, just don't worry about it. Nasuverse were never supposed to make any logical sense.

All things considered, I absolutely loved Lostbelt 6. It's got everything I liked. Epic battles. Surprise reveals. Tragic endings. I am so ready to whale on my current number one waifu Morgan and Melusine once they hit NA.

Just don't think too much about the overly complicated stuff.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Lostbelt is Lostbelt.
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Lostbelt Morgan is Panhuman Ruler Morgan who sent her memories back in time to her past self, as I understand it. So I'm not sure that applies. Also, LB6 is actually "Fairies playing Civilization," which was also a big let down from what I was hoping would be a grand Arthurian epic. Even if the story winds up otherwise decent, that's already a black mark for me.

Either way, I think I'm going to have to ignore loads of the new lore, just because it's so fucking stupid.
 
Winged One said:
Arthur being female doesn't inherently break the narrative in Nasu. We don't actually call Merlin a dick wizard for his personality or his incubus heritage.
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Even disregarding the whole Mordred thing, which is a whole other 'wtf', one of the biggest pieces about Guineivere in Arthurian myth was that merlin knew she would lead to the downfall of Arthur, and even beseeches Arthur to choose another bride. Obviously, I don't have any of the stories of King Arthur in front of me at the moment so I can't give any exact references, but this was pretty key, because the Guinevere/Lancealot thing could be argued to be the biggest blow to Arthur's rule, and if Arthur is female and thus not smitten by Guinevere at first sight, then still choosing her to be his/her bride doesn't make sense with Merlin's warning. There are lots of other little aspects of Arthurian-myth (or at least what my memory can recall) that simply don't make sense if Arthur is female. And it seems in order to justify her being female, more illogical changes get made to Arthurian myth to try and justify it, some of which make even LESS sense.

I'm not going to get into a huge debate over it, because it's not worth the effort and not really the point of this thread. My response was sort of a knee-jerk reaction, that's all.
 
Quite easy.

Just make
Morgana Ley Fay
be crazy and the singularity is her acting up her fantasy. Conveniently enough is also destroying reality because she is doing things that go against reality.

In reality
She is a seer and used forbidden magic to try to change her fate as a result she not only failed but she became nuts.

That explains the singularity and why is destroying reality.
 
Considering one battle in the Lostbelt and what Merlin does in Babylonia, it doesn't seem too surprising for someone to be in multiple places at once, and there is a reason why the Age of Gods, even if at the Age of Fae, is considered unstable. What we see at the end is more an aggregate of History and connections, rather then specifically belonging to that timeline, barring exceptions.

That and there's also the whole 'Human order preserves what it wants to keep around as fictional material', that there are Heroic Spirits formed completely by Myth, aka Medusa and Herc, and those who are based on 'real' People like Emyia and supposedly Sherlock. So it's no surprise that everything doesn't line up exactly, especially given the wacky nature of the Reverse, and that as a Terminal of the Planet they may have certain privileges that enable these inconsistencies to seemingly appear.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Lostbelt Morgan is Panhuman Ruler Morgan who sent her memories back in time to her past self, as I understand it.
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Lostbelt Morgan just has her Panhuman self's memories, to my understanding, it's not actually literally Panhuman Morgan. Tonelico the Savior was basically a different person characterizationwise before the fairies' assholery broke her and she used her Panhuman self's memories for inspiration on how to go full tyrant and force the fae under control. There's a lot of actually kind of cool stuff that pops up around the major characters of Avalon le Fae, but if you want to ignore the composite characterization lore, it's 100% fine with me. Nasu doesn't always make the best decisions.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
It's just too messy. There's a rule in fiction writing, that you don't make six characters where one will do. But this takes that way too far, and it removes nuance from her character by reducing everything to, "Actually, she was just fucking nuts, because she was three different people living in one head."
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I understand the reasoning behind compilation characters and it can and has worked well.
For example, I personally prefer Morgause and Morgan le Fey to be separate characters, but a lot of versions (Nasu included) combine them and often do it well. Hell, I know of at least one version that makes them separate characters and does it terribly!
The thing is you have to understand character roles and be willing to cut and paste them as necessary.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Lostbelt Morgan is Panhuman Ruler Morgan who sent her memories back in time to her past self, as I understand it. So I'm not sure that applies. Also, LB6 is actually "Fairies playing Civilization," which was also a big let down from what I was hoping would be a grand Arthurian epic. Even if the story winds up otherwise decent, that's already a black mark for me.

Either way, I think I'm going to have to ignore loads of the new lore, just because it's so fucking stupid.
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I suggest directly checking information from a reliable source, honestly. There's a lot of misinformation going around as a result of the new release, and many people are spreading wrong information around. I personally suggest Neobenedict's channel if you don't mind spoilers at all, they're posting every chapter as translated by a reliable team.

I can't say even my information is 100% accurate, but there's a few points I'm relatively sure about I can clear up:

PHH Morgan is largely irrelevant to the lostbelt. I personally haven't seen citations about Morgan being 3 people, and honestly? It's completely unimportant.

PHH Morgan's role in the story was to recreate Rayshifting and send her memories to her past LB self, which killed her in the process. The memories were supposed to be a warning to her LB self, but said LB Morgan was stubborn and tried to be a hero instead. After many failed time loops, said Morgan gave up and became the LB Queen Morgan we end up meeting.

Whether or not Morgan is vivian or not doesn't factor, because LB Morgan is her own person. PHH Morgan's role was basically to walk into LB6, see a post-apocalyptic desolate corpse floating in the ocean, then recreate rayshifting to send her memories to her past LB self in a manner that killed her. That's it.
 
What A Day said:
I suggest directly checking information from a reliable source, honestly. There's a lot of misinformation going around as a result of the new release, and many people are spreading wrong information around. I personally suggest Neobenedict's channel if you don't mind spoilers at all, they're posting every chapter as translated by a reliable team.

I can't say even my information is 100% accurate, but there's a few points I'm relatively sure about I can clear up:

PHH Morgan is largely irrelevant to the lostbelt. I personally haven't seen citations about Morgan being 3 people, and honestly? It's completely unimportant.

PHH Morgan's role in the story was to recreate Rayshifting and send her memories to her past LB self, which killed her in the process. The memories were supposed to be a warning to her LB self, but said LB Morgan was stubborn and tried to be a hero instead. After many failed time loops, said Morgan gave up and became the LB Queen Morgan we end up meeting.

Whether or not Morgan is vivian or not doesn't factor, because LB Morgan is her own person. PHH Morgan's role was basically to walk into LB6, see a post-apocalyptic desolate corpse floating in the ocean, then recreate rayshifting to send her memories to her past LB self in a manner that killed her. That's it.
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Holmes talks about it here as though it were fact. Go to about 7:40 for the relevant part about her being 3 people. It might not be super relevant to the Lostbelt, but it's relevant to the lore of Panhuman Morgan, and it frustrates the hell out of me.

"If you think of it that way, it's all consistent." No, it most certainly isn't, Holmes.
 
"Morgan can't be in multiple places at once!"
Dude, she's demonstrated that she can, in fact, be in multiple places at once via magecraft. Or did you forget the Morgan fights at the end of 6.2, where we fight multiple Morgans, while the actual Morgan was in her throne room?
EDIT: Yes, I know that was LB Morgan and not PHH Morgan, but they have the same talent for magecraft just about, and PHH Morgan probably had 2 copies of herself with her other personalities running them out and about. BAM, plothole solved.
 
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I've been pretty disappointed with the Lost Belts (and honestly a lot of Grand Order in general). Like... all the Greek gods actually being space mecha kind of directly contradicts what we knew about them before, for example. Its very much a case of throw whatever new idea we have at the wall.
 
James D. Fawkes said:
Holmes talks about it here as though it were fact. Go to about 7:40 for the relevant part about her being 3 people. It might not be super relevant to the Lostbelt, but it's relevant to the lore of Panhuman Morgan, and it frustrates the hell out of me.

"If you think of it that way, it's all consistent." No, it most certainly isn't, Holmes.
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Okay...

Let's try and break this down.
  • Morgan is Uther's daughter but looks like Gorlois's daughter.
    • So, we can conclude:
      • Morgan was conceived when Uther was magically transformed into Gorlois's appearance by Merlin
      • This is one of the versions of the story where Uther rapes Ingraine by deception (as opposed to the versions where Uther only uses Gorlois's appearance to gain access to Ingraine's chambers, then seduces her/having already seduced her).
      • Morgan was conceived in the act most stories assign to Arthur's conception
  • Morgan is also a fairy (and the personification of Britain?). For the sake of my sanity, I'm going to just interpret this as a (re)incarnation/soul thing.
  • Even as a child (infant?) Morgan was aware enough of her nature to hide it growing up.
  • Morgan was Uther's heir until Artoria drew the sword from the Stone.
  • Morgan raises Lancelot under the pseudonym Vivian.
  • Morgan marries King Lot and has a bunch of future knights of the Round Table, despite raising her sons to hate Arthur.
  • Morgan gives Artoria Excalibur under the pseudonym Vivian.
  • Morgan creates a clone of Artoria named Mordred and raises her as Artoria's son and heir.
  • Morgan trains under Merlin under the pseudonym Nimue?
  • Morgan takes Artoria's dying body to be preserved in Avalon.
Theoretical DID aside, Morgan was aware of her origins and abilities and the consequences of them since forever. She could travel to the Reverse Side of the World, change her appearance (or at least disguise herself as an adult), and travel between Wales and France so quickly as to not be missed in either place.

WTF did Merlin have to teach her? How long was that going on for? Because Merlin still had to be around for Mordred's conception.

Also, given that Artoria was a girl and still got to become king, this character history follows the usual Nasu method of the villains of history/myth being rewritten as victims of history. Morgan was Uther's eldest child and as trueborn as Arthur is remembered in legend. She was the human incarnation of the spirit of the land too. She really was robbed.
 
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