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Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

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About those nasty spoilers of LB7

And they saying Olga cannot into U-Olga in here, I would say that in the Root there is already a U-Olga ( or a near infinite number from other TLs ) so I really really want our Olga meet U-Olga. The chaos! The insanity! The Rika jokes!
:p
 
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Faralis said:
About those nasty spoilers of LB7

And they saying Olga cannot into U-Olga in here, I would say that in the Root there is already a U-Olga ( or a near infinite number from other TLs ) so I really really want our Olga meet U-Olga. The chaos! The isanity! The Rika jokes!
:p
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In the end, U-Olga was just a puppet which also means that if the true mastermind will it, they can have another puppet to replace Olga as the other supposed Beast of Humanity or Alien god or whatever.
 
LamSufficent2000 said:
In the end, U-Olga was just a puppet which also means that if the true mastermind will it, they can have another puppet to replace Olga as the other supposed Beast of Humanity or Alien god or whatever.
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Doubt that.

Olga being thrown into Chaldeas was a fluke that nobody predicted, not Goetia and not the Mastermind of part 2, not only that, her being thrown into Chaldeas is the reason why the Crypters were able to be resurrected, her being thrown into Chaldeas is also the reason why Marisbury/Alien God/Alien World plans were delayed, she is also, apparently/probably, the reason as to why Apostles like Holmes, and maybe Dantes, were summoned.

Olga not being thrown into Chaldeas changes so many things behind the scenes that is not even funny, it's not confirmed or guaranteed, but i wouldn't be surprised if Olga not being thrown into Chaldeas leads to a bad ending because she isn't the spanner in the works of Goetia and Marisbury/Alien God/Alien World plans.

LB 7 answered a significant number of questions and gave significant information, but the unanswered questions and incomplete answers outweigh the information received.

Until we know the original plan and the full story, making assumptions like that could lead to a wrong conclusion.
 
rafuki22 said:
Doubt that.

Olga being thrown into Chaldeas was a fluke that nobody predicted, not Goetia and not the Mastermind of part 2, not only that, her being thrown into Chaldeas is the reason why the Crypters were able to be resurrected, her being thrown into Chaldeas is also the reason why Marisbury/Alien God/Alien World plans were delayed, she is also, apparently/probably, the reason as to why Apostles like Holmes, and maybe Dantes, were summoned.

Olga not being thrown into Chaldeas changes so many things behind the scenes that is not even funny, it's not confirmed or guaranteed, but i wouldn't be surprised if Olga not being thrown into Chaldeas leads to a bad ending because she isn't the spanner in the works of Goetia and Marisbury/Alien God/Alien World plans.

LB 7 answered a significant number of questions and gave significant information, but the unanswered questions and incomplete answers outweigh the information received.

Until we know the original plan and the full story, making assumptions like that could lead to a wrong conclusion.
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I mean even though the LB7 spoilery shit means part 2 as we know it is thoroughly derailed in Hereafter it doesn't mean other shit isn't on Earth to interfere with the pieces in motion. I mean just because humanity got Incinerated doesn't mean the Shards camping out on all the Earths that never even had a human history to be Incinerated did, and as per the Worm/Ward timeline the ice that is reality is getting pretty thin for them over the course of the year. Right now they're still lost and confused because the Shard-hub/Scion is gone, but they're slowly figuring out how to work around it and reconnect. I'd say without Teacher, the Fallen, and certain high power Capes doing their respective things that were accelerating the breaking of the ice Shardpocalyse 2 Alien Boogaloo would be put off by quite a bit, but I have a feeling they're none too happy about all their hosts and potential hosts getting axed. Methinks they might eventually try to do something about the shenanigans coming out of Earth whatever James designated it.
Point of terrifying potential, the Shards need a Hub. Taylor's Shard is the Shard that controls other Shards, albeit crippled and even partially destroyed, Eidolon's Shard is Eden's QA, albeit damaged and a little dysfunctional. QA cannibalizes the High Priest to restore it's functions, reestablish a Shard Hub, and Taylor is forced to become their avatar for dealing with Part 2 shenanigans.
You know what? Bam, Part 2 sequel right there; Chaldea vs Alien God vs Alien Parasites. Admittedly we'd need to know a heck of a lot more about what's really going on behind the scenes in Part 2 before any concrete fic plans can be made for it, but a sequel in which Chaldea (sans Taylor) have to try to save their bleached Earth while contending with the Parahumans-verse Earths, which weren't bleached because they already have their own Aliens that fashioned Taylor into an Alien God of their own to act against FGO's, not necessarily as enemies like they do the Lostbelts, but not always as friends either because things in Parahumans-verse can be horrible more often than not. The whole while Chaldea is sitting on the knowledge that they are in possession of both Billy Shakypike and the gun that stopped/ended Taylor the last time she went 6 miles over the Godzilla Threshold. It would be a mercy. It would be ending a threat to humanity. But it would also be ending the only thing propping up some form of the Proper Human History and holding back whatever is trying to supplant it, and killing their beloved comrade. Main characters: the twins.
 
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"Amateur Psychiatry" — by James D. Fawkes
  • Apocrypha
    • Since LB6 shall be upon the NA server soon...

    Nimue blinked. "Oh, dear me, no. Wherever did you hear an idea like that?"

    Very deliberately, I didn't look at Holmes, whose smile had turned thin and tense.

    Nimue sighed and shook her head. "It's true, Morgan was a complicated woman, but not quite that complicated. No, no — Gawain and his siblings weren't quite that young. She was simply born about, oh, fifteen years before the King, while the Lady Igraine was quite young herself. Gawain, Gareth, and Gaheris all came about during the interregnum years, while the King was still growing under Sir Kay's fosterage and that lecher's instruction. I was raising Lancelot and Bors at the time."

    "And she was still there when King Arthur was taken to Avalon?" I asked. "How does that fit?"

    "That part, I'm afraid you'd have to ask her yourself," said Nimue. "I was not there — I sent several of my subordinates instead, while I prepared a place for the King in Avalon and secured Excalibur. Why it was Morgan was one of those who ferried him into Avalon is something I can't answer. Perhaps, by then, she'd come to regret her hostility and was there to repent."

    Rika snorted. "Ha! Fairied him to Avalon!"

    It took me an extra second to catch the pun, and I resisted the urge to roll my eyes.

    "It is simply that Morgan was torn between her own wants and desires and her duty to Britain," Nimue went on. "She could be very pleasant and helpful, as expected of someone of her responsibility, but the part of her that was born the daughter of King Uther was prone to fits of violent jealousy and rage. Having to suppress that side of herself, why, is it any wonder that she wasn't always able to hold it in? The plotting with Mordred and her various schemes can be said to be nothing more than those repressed desires finding an outlet."

    She waved it off. "The idea that she was somehow three women all stuffed into one body, each one with different desires and goals — why, that strikes me as the unnecessarily complicated theory of an amateur psychiatrist — that is the correct term, is it not?"

    "It is," I said.

    "I thank you for your time, Lady Nimue," Holmes said tersely. "You have been quite...illuminating on a subject that has baffled many scholars over the centuries."

    "It was no trouble," Nimue said pleasantly. She snorted. "Really, now. Just how was she supposed to be raising Gawain, Gareth, and Gaheris in Orkney at the same time as raising Lancelot in France? Fairies are capable of some incredible things, but there are limits!"

    Holmes' cheek twitched. "How... How, indeed!"

    I eyed him, a little concerned. He was taking this a lot harder than I thought it warranted.
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • James D. Fawkes said:
    "It was no trouble," Nimue said pleasantly. She snorted. "Really, now. Just how was she supposed to be raising Gawain, Gareth, and Gaheris in Orkney at the same time as raising Lancelot in France? Fairies are capable of some incredible things, but there are limits!"

    Holmes' cheek twitched. "How... How, indeed!"
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    Okay, I can definitely see the "Take THAT!!" to LB6's... interesting interpretation of those particular bits of Arthurian lore, but... now I'm kind of sad that Goredolf is unlikely to be around(?) to see Holmes on the edge of losing his shit.
     
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    TimeDiver said:
    ...okay, I can definitely see the "Take THAT!!" to LB6's... interesting take on that particular tidbit of Arthurian lore, but... now I'm kind of sad that Goredolf isn't(?) likely to be around to likewise see Holmes on the verge of losing his shit.
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    I'm poking fun of everyone in that. Holmes, for speaking that nonsense. Nasu, for coming up with it in the first place. Myself, for making such a big deal about it. Everyone catches hands in that little short.
     
    Offhand, considering the Morgan Clones in Lostbelt 6, the three-in-one Sorceress operating in separate places doesn't seem too crazy to consider. As I wouldn't be surprised if it operated somewhat like Atlas's Memory Partition. Though I'll admit I wouldn't be aware of any further timeline issues... then again aren't their Witches, themselves a type of Fae, that have returned to the Past?
     
    The Void said:
    Offhand, considering the Morgan Clones in Lostbelt 6, the three-in-one Sorceress operating in separate places doesn't seem too crazy to consider. As I wouldn't be surprised if it operated somewhat like Atlas's Memory Partition. Though I'll admit I wouldn't be aware of any further timeline issues... then again aren't their Witches, themselves a type of Fae, that have returned to the Past?
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    The Morgan clones exist in a different framework, to my understanding, one that doesn't exist in PHH. It's also a ridiculous, unnecessarily complicated solution to a problem, which is something Nasu really needs to get a handle on, because I'm getting kind of tired of every big enemy in Fate requiring a convoluted, ridiculously complicated set of circumstances to be beaten. There has to be a happier middle ground between "Hurr-durr, I cast fist!" and "Ah, but what you didn't know was that all of those dozens of seemingly unrelated side quests provided just the right power up I needed to win!"

    I'm going to have to play LB6 in full before I comment too much more about it, but it would behoove Nasu if he never confirmed that Holmes was right. As long as it remains a theory Holmes pulled out of his ass and all the things that might confirm it take place in an altered, rejected history like the Lostbelts, then it can remain ambiguous. That way, I don't have to be disappointed that Nasu mashed the "mental illness is why Morgan was evil" button.

    "Morgan had DID, and one of those personalities was evil, and that's why she's a villain," plays into a toxic trope that doesn't deserve air to breathe.
     
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    James D. Fawkes said:
    That way, I don't have to be disappointed that Nasu mashed the "mental illness is why Morgan was evil" button.
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    Going to play the Devil's Advocate for a moment, but as I recall (going by Nasu's ludicrously ham-fisted lore justifications):

    It wasn't solely the 'evil' persona of Morgan le Fay that drove the 'composite' Morgan to behave as she did, but rather the clash between each of the 'increasingly-incompatible persona(s)*' that left her... insane, for lack of a better term.

    * - Persona #1: Morgan Pendragon, the caring/doting older sister; persona #2: Morgan Le Fay, inheriting the will of the land of Britain after Artoria eliminates Vortigern; persona #3: Vivianne (or Nimue?), the Lady of the Lake, etc. etc.

    Addendum: Let me be clear, I do not disagree with your assessments; just attempting to point out what Nasu (and/or Takeuchi, never know how much he's a part of it when Saber-faces are involved) were trying (and failing) to establish.
     
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    TimeDiver said:
    Going to play the Devil's Advocate for a moment, but as I recall (going by Nasu's ludicrously ham-fisted lore justifications):

    It wasn't solely the 'evil' persona of Morgan le Faye that drove the 'composite' Morgan to behave as she did, but rather the clash between each of the 'increasingly-incompatible persona(s)*' that drove her... insane, for lack of a better term.

    * - Persona #1: Morgan Pendragon, the caring/doting older sister; persona #2: Morgan Le Fay, inheriting the will of the land of Britain after Artoria eliminates Vortigern; persona #3: Vivianne, the Lady of the Lake, etc. etc.
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    You're just reinforcing my point. The idea that she developed alters (not Alters) as a method of coping with the stress of her conflicting roles is a form of mental illness, and would result in a Dissociative Identity Disorder if she were diagnosed by a psychiatrist. The idea therefore that her "evil acts" came about as a result of those alters clashing is perpetuating a harmful stereotype and all too common trope.

    Fortunately, all of the cites on the wiki for that theory originate from Holmes postulating in-game and are not confirmed in official material books. Even her character bond profile makes no mention of such things as, "She wasn't actually Igraine's daughter by birth, but a full fairy from the moment she came into existence" or, "she and Vivian were the same person."
     
    James D. Fawkes said:
    "She wasn't actually Igraine's daughter by birth, but a full fairy from the moment she came into existence"
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    Because she was Igraine's daughter by birth. Both her parents were one hundred percent human. But she herself is not, despite being born just like any other human*. As she's fundamentally not human, she simply doesn't think the way humans do; she's just as insane by human standards as Arcueid, or Merlin, or the gods.

    *Not counting cesarean section, etc.
     
    Basically, here's how I see things going down from a Doylist perspective.

    Type Moon had already combined Morgause and Morgan le Fey per T.H. White's The Once and Future King.
    Then, they discovered the contradictions between Morgause and Morgan's histories. Namely Morgan going on to eventually aid Arthur and carry him to Avalon.
    And instead of ignoring those parts of Morgan's story like sensible people, Type Moon decided to try and tackle the contradiction head-on.
    And then they learned many women were called Lady of the Lake including Morgan.
    So, instead of making it "a Lady of the Lake instead of "the Lady of the Lake", Type Moon decided "Hey, Morgan is already acting at cross purposes against herself, might as well make the Lady of the Lake a plurality. Throw Viviane in there and everything".

    Honestly, once I got over my incredulity, I find the fact Viviane's big role in Lancelot and Guinevere's story is providing counter measures to Morgan le Fey's spells pretty amusing.
    Though now the stories where Morgan tries to steal Lancelot from Guinevere are particularly gross.
     
    James D. Fawkes said:
    As long as it remains a theory Holmes pulled out of his ass and all the things that might confirm it take place in an altered, rejected history like the Lostbelts, then it can remain ambiguous.
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    Holmes: "In my defence, I was extremely out of my face at the time, I'm just good at hiding it. My recollection of that conversation? One in ten words, max."

    But seriously, couldn't agree more, "mental illness = dangerous/violent" is a trope that needs to fuck right off. It's not just deeply wrong, it also actively makes things worse for people in RL.
     
    Another possible theory that I'm not sure ever came up in any of the Fate stories would be conflation.

    It's fairly common in history/folklore to have completely different people combined into one person, either because they have similar names or occupy similar places in the story, or whatever.

    How would that show up in the Throne if completely different people shared a Legend?
     
    CuriousQuasit said:
    But seriously, couldn't agree more, "mental illness = dangerous/violent" is a trope that needs to fuck right off. It's not just deeply wrong, it also actively makes things worse for people in RL.
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    I don't want to offend, but maybe people are taking it a little too seriously?

    When i think about Morgan three personalities deal i don't think about it as "Oh, she is evil because she has a mental illness"(I wonder what would people say if Morgan was good because of her "mental illness"?), i think "So that's her deal in this fictional world of fairies, dragons, gods, magic and living planets with living countries".

    I'm not saying that portraying mental illness as evil is a good thing, but really...
     
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