Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

It could be one of those things where it does manifest, but is so weak that it isn't really useful for anything to the 'skipped' person.

Direct power exposure isn't the only factor in strength of the child, or we'd see at least some expectant talented mothers doing things like sleeping in the equivalent of magical tanning beds, so depending on how the other factors line up their kids could inherit strength they themselves lacked in the talents of their family tree.

This could lead some interesting places for Rosie and her daughter. She did awaken to magic while early in the pregnancy, and she is involved with some powerful supernatural people.

It wouldn't be totally surprising if her kid ended up with a wizard's talent. Possibly a really significant one if early exposure to beneficial essence effects has an impact on this sort of thing.

For all we know expectant mothers who are magically aware and understand how magical inheritance works do deliberately expose themselves to magic during pregnancy to increase the chances of having a powerfully talented child, and we just don't see it happen because, like with lots of things, Harry is an outsider to magical society and doesn't really know how things work.

I think there has to be at least some randomness in how magic manifests because well... Thomas 'can barely cast a tracking spell' Raith and Harry 'Starborn' Dresden are brothers who share a mother.

I think we're told that's partially his hunger's fault, and also an unused talent fades away, and he may not have used his when younger and ignorant of how to use magic that wasn't his Hunger.

And yes, there'll be some randomness, but it was certain enough for the White Court to try to choke off the next generation of wizards based on this and for that to be seen as a real threat.

That's the point of the plot of White Knight.
 
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I think there has to be at least some randomness in how magic manifests because well... Thomas 'can barely cast a tracking spell' Raith and Harry 'Starborn' Dresden are brothers who share a mother.
Yeah, but they both still got something.

If wizards all had strong talents for children I'd expect their to be something closer to dynastic politics in the white council. The senior council seems to mostly be composed of people with independent' backgrounds for lack of a better term, so in canon it's probably not just that.

At the same time, keeping a tradition alive without inheritors across a generation or two is really difficult, especially if no one is writing it down.

For my part the most reasonable middle ground would be if magic always gave you something, but that personal context and various esoteric laws dictated how much you parent passed on. With the most common result being someone with just enough power to stay conversant in magic.

Or rather, the magical traditions that survive long term are those that you can stay minimally skilled in at whatever the average magical inheritance level is to look at it from a different perspective.
For all we know expectant mothers who are magically aware and understand how magical inheritance works do deliberately expose themselves to magic during pregnancy to increase the chances of having a powerfully talented child, and we just don't see it happen because, like with lots of things, Harry is an outsider to magical society and doesn't really know how things work.
That's a good point, though I think it's somewhat implied that it wouldn't be a dominating factor by the lack of pronounced wizard dynasties ruling the council. Not impossible, but if you could get Mortimer/Binder grade sorcerers and wizards with something that direct it seems like it'd have a more visible impact on the setting.

There's also a certain spiritual element to this sort of thing in the Dresden Files, so it might be that power only goes so far without context.

That is, the kid needs something like a significant encounter during the pregnancy, magical breakthrough by their mother early on in their development, or something else significant to kindle power in them by proxy. Similar to how Rosie's talent was kindled by her exposure to movements of power.

That would also play into explaining why specifically Thomas has so little and white court sorcerers seem so rare.

Rather than just blaming it on demons being demons, it would be that the context for the spiritual growth of the kid is already strongly set, so getting something to shift it requires something even more significant than normal.

It'd fit perfectly with the setting because it's the kind of thing that curious wizards could study all they like and still have great difficulty cheesing. Which is something people would almost certainly try to do about five minutes after they notices there's any inheritance involved at all.
 
As an aside, do we need expression dots for fashion stuff?

Super crafting is one thing, but if Molly has no idea what she's aiming for it might be a problem.
Yeah, that's an issue. I mean, Molly probably wouldn't be able to design the cake / dress very well (Ask Lydia for help? She has intelligence excellency, and that probably falls under that). She'd be able to make them supremely well, though.
Note that fathers can also pass on magic if they use frequently use it around their unborn child.

Also, one of the reasons the Skavis were killing off women with minor talents specifically was to kill off the next generation of wizards before they were born. Minor talents may tend to have more talented children if they make heavy use of their talent or are exposed to significant magic while pregnant or shortly before.
If the level of magic exposure affects the talent of the kids, I suspect that if any member of the Order of Cauldron was to get pregnant anywhere in our general vicinity, her kid would definitely be a senior White Council grade talent.
1)Life expectancy is normal for most magically talented.

The many younger people has a straightforward explanation: Older (modern)magic-users select themselves by commitment.
Some people dont happen to use their magic much, if at all, as they get older and other concerns compete for their attention.
Some suppress it. See Charity.

Even some of the Alphas allegedly stopped shapeshifting much after graduating; at least one became superreligious.
There does seem to be danger involved in being a minor talent compared to being a fully mundane if your keep using the talent.
Not quite. BSM comes into play.
Depending on the type of manipulation (like, say, causing rain (of fish), or creating cloud cover in a desert), TLF too.
It wouldn't be totally surprising if her kid ended up with a wizard's talent. Possibly a really significant one if early exposure to beneficial essence effects has an impact on this sort of thing.
Dependin on when they were conceived, they also have a chance of being born on Halloween. Depending on narrative convenience, plot, and whether Rosie keeps getting involved, they might also be welcomed into the world by either the first celestial exalt of the era, and/or Mab. I am fairly sure that Celestial Bureaucracy's Bureau of Destiny analog is scrambling to make a suitable great fate for the kid.
VOTE
[X] Show her fiance her magic

If this is gonna cause problems, better to find out now than in a decade's time.
Why not offer to at least make a cake for the wedding too? Lydia is giving her a present in the form of Disney fairy tale show in real life. We could at least make an inhumanly good cake, and maybe a dress.
 
Yeah, but they both still got something.

If wizards all had strong talents for children I'd expect their to be something closer to dynastic politics in the white council. The senior council seems to mostly be composed of people with independent' backgrounds for lack of a better term, so in canon it's probably not just that.

At the same time, keeping a tradition alive without inheritors across a generation or two is really difficult, especially if no one is writing it down.

For my part the most reasonable middle ground would be if magic always gave you something, but that personal context and various esoteric laws dictated how much you parent passed on. With the most common result being someone with just enough power to stay conversant in magic.

Or rather, the magical traditions that survive long term are those that you can stay minimally skilled in at whatever the average magical inheritance level is to look at it from a different perspective.

That's a good point, though I think it's somewhat implied that it wouldn't be a dominating factor by the lack of pronounced wizard dynasties ruling the council. Not impossible, but if you could get Mortimer/Binder grade sorcerers and wizards with something that direct it seems like it'd have a more visible impact on the setting.

There's also a certain spiritual element to this sort of thing in the Dresden Files, so it might be that power only goes so far without context.

That is, the kid needs something like a significant encounter during the pregnancy, magical breakthrough by their mother early on in their development, or something else significant to kindle power in them by proxy. Similar to how Rosie's talent was kindled by her exposure to movements of power.

That would also play into explaining why specifically Thomas has so little and white court sorcerers seem so rare.

Rather than just blaming it on demons being demons, it would be that the context for the spiritual growth of the kid is already strongly set, so getting something to shift it requires something even more significant than normal.

It'd fit perfectly with the setting because it's the kind of thing that curious wizards could study all they like and still have great difficulty cheesing. Which is something people would almost certainly try to do about five minutes after they notices there's any inheritance involved at all.

Look at Harry's mother, grandfather, and brother. All magically talented, and two of them wizard grade.

Also look at how Ebenezer doesn't even tell Harry he's his grandfather for years, and how it's kept secret because of the risk of bloodline curses.

Arguably, we do see dynastic politics, some of the moves against Harry are because who his mother was, and that might be common,

We also don't know if there was lots of dynastic politics in the pre-Vampire War White Council. There could well be, and Harry just wasn't close enough to see it.

Also, overall talent and power may be inherited, but preferences and style of magic may not be, so you don't see it in the Wardens as a Warden is unlikely to have a child with the temperament and skills to be another Warden.

We also know it dormant require magical breakthroughs or anything like that. When Molly was conceived and gestating, Charity was already suppressing her magic. It's just that her prior use and exposure to it took enough time to fade to give Molly a wizard grade talent.

The basic point remains. We know that IC it's believe that killing female minor talents is a reliable way of preventing the next generation of wizards being born.

Fair enough on the inheritance, a wizard mother give birth to magical children and less powerful talents will also likely produce some kind of sensitivity to magic.

Note that it being based on pre-natal exposure rather than actual inheritance does add elements that are useful from a storytelling, perspective, like why Charity's other children are untalented and why magical talent can suddenly pop up in children from non-magical parents and so end up accidentally breaking the Laws through ignorance, because they were randomly exposed to some magic while their mother was pregnant with them.
 
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Sorcerers can do it, Mages can do it with Forces, Vampires can do it with Thaumaturgy, Wan Kuei can do it with the Storm Shintai and I would be highly surprised if Werewolves didn't have fitting gifts for it (and even if they don't they can beseech spirits who definitly have the ability).
low level ones are probably done through rituals or asking spirits. But for weaponized weather control there are lvl4 and lvl5 gifts.
Rank 5 Wendigo Gift / Rank 5 Bunyip Gift / Rank 4 Shadow Lord Gift
The Shadow Lord versions is called Call the Storm

The Garou can summon nearly any weather effect she desires, be it a tornado, fog, blizzard or thunderstorms. An avatar of Wendigo teaches this Gift. An avatar of Rainbow Serpent teaches the Bunyip version.

System: The player spends one Gnosis pint and rolls Willpower (difficulty varies based on how close the desired effect is to the actual weather patterns of the area). The storm covers 10 miles per success. If the Garou summons a thunderstorm, she may spend Gnosis to call lightning down on her enemies (Dexterity + Occult to hit, 10 dice of aggravated damage).

Shadow Lord version: Only thunderstorms may be called and an avatar of Grandfather Thunder teaches this Gift.

Rank 5 Shadow Lord (Hakken) Gift

The Hakken can call forth a powerful storm in a designated area. The storm uproots trees and overturns cars in its fury (note: that's at least high end category 4, maybe even 5). An ancestor-spirit or a servant of Narukami, Lord of Thunder, teaches this Gift.

System: The player rolls Stamina + Enigmas (difficulty 7) and spends a minimum of one Rage point. Each success equals a one-mile (1.6 km) radius for the storm. Each Rage point spent adds a success and, therefore, increases the size of the storm, which lasts for no more than one scene.
 
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Do we have any way that we can help reduce the side effects of doing a weather working? She has good reason not to use her talent often.
 
Yeah, but they both still got something.
If wizards all had strong talents for children I'd expect their to be something closer to dynastic politics in the white council. The senior council seems to mostly be composed of people with independent' backgrounds for lack of a better term, so in canon it's probably not just that.
Prior to the mid-20th century, infectious disease was a significant factor in how many children made it to adulthood.
Smallpox, whooping cough, diarrhea, polio, measles, et cetera. Even with magic, I expect that held true as much for the children of wizards and the magically talented as for the rest of the normies.

And while its a much better thing now, over two thirds of the world's population still lives and hails from parts of the world where infectious disease remains a significant public health issue. Given that Arianna successfully biobombed the White Council in Changes, wizards arent any more immune to disease now.

And their techbane has implications for their ability to access modern medical care.
Why not offer to at least make a cake for the wedding too? Lydia is giving her a present in the form of Disney fairy tale show in real life. We could at least make an inhumanly good cake, and maybe a dress.
Too much.
Lydia is literally spending a couple seconds to ask a friendly bird to move a garland.
Send a card. Or a gift.

Furthermore, we dont have to outdo everyone everytime. Its a bad habit to get into, having to outcompete your friends.

EDIT
The basic point remains. We know that IC it's believe that killing female minor talents is a reliable way of preventing the next generation of wizards being born.
Key word: believed.
I would not be at all surprised if it didnt work. If some wizard went back into the lab and cooked up a major working.
Or if the White God just went "Nope".

Surprise Pikachu faces would be glorious.
 
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Look at Harry's mother, grandfather, and brother. All magically talented, and two of them wizard grade.

Also look at how Ebenezer doesn't even tell Harry he's his grandfather for years, and how it's kept secret because of the risk of bloodline curses.

Arguably, we do see dynastic politics, some of the moves against Harry are because who his mother was, and that might be common,

We also don't know if there was lots of dynastic politics in the pre-Vampire War White Council. There could well be, and Harry just wasn't close enough to see it.

Also, overall talent and power may be inherited, but preferences and style of magic may not be, so you don't see it in the Wardens as a Warden is unlikely to have a child with the temperament and skills to be another Warden.

We also know it dormant require magical breakthroughs or anything like that. When Molly was conceived and gestating, Charity was already suppressing her magic. It's just that her prior use and exposure to it took enough time to fade to give Molly a wizard grade talent.

The basic point remains. We know that IC it's believe that killing female minor talents is a reliable way of preventing the next generation of wizards being born.

I'm not saying power doesn't matter, just that it isn't the only thing and probably isn't a reliable way to ensure powerful new talents are born on its own. Look at the plot you're referencing; it wouldn't have worked if being a wizard meant you could ensure your kids will also be wizards.

Harry is an example of dynastic politics, but he's also the only example we really see.

As ignorant as Harry can be, he would have noticed the existence of the magical Kennedys. Especially when doing stuff like plotting with Luccio against the Merlin. Even if he didn't understand that aspect of things she would almost certainly have brought it up.

Outside of the council, consider the fact that through decades of living in Chicago the only wizard grade talent Harry ever encountered in the wild was Molly.

I'm not saying it has no impact, just that some other factors are clearly very influencial as well.
If the level of magic exposure affects the talent of the kids, I suspect that if any member of the Order of Cauldron was to get pregnant anywhere in our general vicinity, her kid would definitely be a senior White Council grade talent
I think it will take more than that, but I don't have a lot of basis for it beyond what I've already argued.

I'd bet that if we get a few dots in bless/curse paths and start offering routine blessing as a service to the ordo we'd see an uptick in wizardlings though.

"Hellish blessing of vitality and growth" seems like it'd be an excellent trigger condition for a growing talent to feed itself on.

… They might not end up thanking us if they end up with a generation of high sorcerer to wizard tier evokers though.

Just imagine if you and all your friends growing up learned to explode things with your mind starting with marbles and going up beginning at age 12 or so.

They might curse us entirely by accident out of sheer aggravation.
 
Not really, the problem with weather working is the same as the thing weather working is good for, it affects fast swaths of space and draws in enormous amounts of energy... which takes a lot of time and a lot of people who look up can notice.
If we had some way to get her to the middle of the ocean it likely would cause less problems. Actually I suspect that many weather witches in the past would have attached themselves to ships. It's an occupation where weather is important and there is a whole ocean of water to absorb the consequences.

Now though all the shipping is giant cargo ships with as little crew as possible.
 
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If we had some way to get her to the middle of the ocean it likely would cause less problems. Actually I suspect that many weather witches in the past would have attached themselves to ships. It's an occupation where weather is important and there is a whole ocean of water to absorb the consequences.

Now though all the shipping is giant cargo ships with as little crew as possible.
Doubt that very much.

Can you imagine how valuable a weather witch is to an agricultural community? Or an overlord of a region?
Being able to reliably eliminate droughts as an issue goes a lomg way to preventing famine as an issue
Noone would waste a weather witch/talent on something as ephemeral as a ship.
 
The Infernal may lead a group of mortals or bakemono in a regimen of training, worship, and indoctrination, quickly forming them into a shape of her desiring and creating the nucleus of a cult.
System: During each day of training a group of mortals or bakemono, spend 1 Essence per acolyte. At the end of seven days of training, all students gain 30 experience points to spend raising their Physical Attributes, Manipulation, and Alertness, Brawl, Intimidation, Larceny, Melee, or Occult Abilities. No Ability can be raised higher than that of their Infernal instructor. This Charm can be used on the same acolytes repeatedly, but bestows only 20 experience points on subsequent training regimens. Any unspent experience is lost. Completing a training regimen under this Charm makes the acolytes into creatures of darkness, if they were not already. Additionally, each course of training alters an acolyte's personality in the following fashion:
• After one course of training, he will grow to violently despise one concept specified by the Infernal.
• After two courses of training, he will only speak a selection of languages approved by the Infernal, and will learn the primary language among this approved list if he does not already speak it.
• After three courses of training, he will only wear a specific uniform or style of clothing endorsed by the Infernal.
• After four courses of training, he will shun and scrupulously avoid certain actions or modes of thought proscribed by the Infernal.
• After five courses of training, he will adopt one obligation he must regularly discharge, as defined by the Infernal.
If we ignore the existence of solar charms this is a fairly good deal 12 Xp in order to give all our allies 30 Xp in a week. Even if all the XP is just spent on Physical Attributes that is still a fairly good deal. Getting all our friends up to Strength 4, Dex 4 and Stamina 3 at would be cool. Also Melee 5.

The downsides of becoming a creature of darkness depends on how many things in the world outside our exaltation interact with that tag. Which would be very useful information in it's own right.

After one course of training, he will grow to violently despise one concept specified by the Infernal. Can be managed by finding something that they already despise. Or we can just call that a bonus and make it so everyone we train despises the denarians.

After two courses of training, he will only speak a selection of languages approved by the Infernal, and will learn the primary language among this approved list if he does not already speak it.

This is a bit of a nothing burger. We just approve all languages. Although it does seem to indicate that in the second week we can give a trainee a extra language for free.

After three courses of training, he will only wear a specific uniform or style of clothing endorsed by the Infernal.

I doubt that Molly is going to enforce a very strict dress code.

All in all the Charm does seem worthwhile even if we only use it on the Jade Dogs and Thomas.
Doubt that very much.

Can you imagine how valuable a weather witch is to an agricultural community? Or an overlord of a region?
Being able to reliably eliminate droughts as an issue goes a lomg way to preventing famine as an issue
Noone would waste a weather witch/talent on something as ephemeral as a ship.
The side effects are appeantly importnant. If causing regular rain in one area causes droughts elsewhere that is very good cause for war.
 
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Outside of the council, consider the fact that through decades of living in Chicago the only wizard grade talent Harry ever encountered in the wild was Molly.
I'm not saying it has no impact, just that some other factors are clearly very influencial as well.
He knew Mortimer for five or seven years and never realized he was White Council strength.
And he knows that Elaine is only slighter weaker than himself, and he is top 50 in the Council. Yet she was able to fool Ramirez about her power levels.

Its not implausible there's a significant percentage of wizards who either never got enough training, or are simply lying doggo and pretending to be lesser practitioners.
The side effects are appeantly importnant. If causing regular rain in one area causes droughts elsewhere that is very good cause for war.
1)Depends on the scale and speed of your working. You want a light hand anyway for constructive changes
2)War when your guys are better fed than the attackers puts you at an advantage
 
Too much.
Lydia is literally spending a couple seconds to ask a friendly bird to move a garland.
Send a card. Or a gift.

Furthermore, we dont have to outdo everyone everytime. Its a bad habit to get into, having to outcompete your friends.
It would take us all of an afternoon, and would cost us very little. Why not do it? I guess we'll have to disagree here.
 
It would take us all of an afternoon, and would cost us very little. Why not do it? I guess we'll have to disagree here.
Thats still an afternoon we could spend doing literally anything else.
Making diamonds. Hunting renegade whampires. Spending time with the jawas.
Hanging out with our other friends.

Furthermore, it would outshine everyone else at the wedding. Including the bride, and everyone else's gifts.

Could vs should is one of the core conflicts at the center of Exalted.
A lot of the things we can do are things we have to consider how they impact everyone else
How they make us look. The impact on our IC characterization. All the Consequences.
 
[X] Show her fiance her magic
-[X] Too many secrets do erode trust. Yes, he might take it badly, but better to find out before any vows are sworn than after.
 
He knew Mortimer for five or seven years and never realized he was White Council strength.
And he knows that Elaine is only slighter weaker than himself, and he is top 50 in the Council. Yet she was able to fool Ramirez about her power levels.

Its not implausible there's a significant percentage of wizards who either never got enough training, or are simply lying doggo and pretending to be lesser practitioners.
Mort is a powerful sorcerer, but he's still limited to his area of focus. He's strong enough to contest a wizard there, but he can't do anything else.

Elaine was head hunted by Harry's master and come to the city because Dresden was there.

Neither are good representations of the frequency at which full wizards emerge in a population.
 
It is indeed quite powerful but it has other limitations. To quote the book:

Regardless of who practices it, Weather Control is usually slow. Instantaneous effects are rare and extreme, with most taking hours or even days to finish building up. Its limits are also more visible than many Paths, as a tidal wave cannot be called up when inland and clear skies can't be instantly turned into a hurricane.
And yet even if she took an entire year to stir up a hurricane (which she wouldn't), that's still the force of 10000 nuclear bombs in just one year. Though its almost certainly a matter of guiding existing energies, not supplying them herself.
I wonder if Harry (a trained and talented thaumaturgistic) could help leverage her talent into a reversal, channeling the energy of a storm into herself or her spellwork like Victor Sells (minus the murder, demonology, and orgies).
 
And yet even if she took an entire year to stir up a hurricane (which she wouldn't), that's still the force of 10000 nuclear bombs in just one year. Though its almost certainly a matter of guiding existing energies, not supplying them herself.
I wonder if Harry (a trained and talented thaumaturgistic) could help leverage her talent into a reversal, channeling the energy of a storm into herself or her spellwork like Victor Sells (minus the murder, demonology, and orgies).

She cannot stir up a hurricane, she does not have the intensity aspect of the path maxed up. the best she can do in terms of intensity is

•• Rain can be called down, strong winds summoned up and temperature shifts as large as 30 degrees (Fahrenheit) can be called up or put down.
 
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